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What Do You Think Of This Health Insurance Premium?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camper6 View Post
    If you can afford it. If you can't you have nothing over Canada's system. Rich people don't have to worry. Poor people do.
    The point I am trying to make is that I am already paying way more in health insurance premiums than I would pay in additional taxes if we went exclusively to single payer.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trade View Post
    The point I am trying to make is that I am already paying way more in health insurance premiums than I would pay in additional taxes if we went exclusively to single payer.
    I misinterpreted your post.
    The question was, what do you think of these health insurance premiums.

    What I think? Outrageous.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camper6 View Post
    I misinterpreted your post.
    The question was, what do you think of these health insurance premiums.

    What I think? Outrageous.
    No argument there.

    I'd better not get started on our Healthcare system, because when I do I can lose it pretty fast.

    "I'm Superfly TNT!"

    "I'm the Guns of Navarone!

  4. #49
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    Part of the issue with high INSURANCE premiums and the various plans/possible solutions out there is that they focus on finding money to pay for insurance premiums yet it is the cost of actual CARE that is a big expense factor. COST and/or care issues need to identified first. Part of the problem of cost issues is they have gotten lost if not hidden in a system of third party reimbursements. Someone else is paying for it syndrome perpetuates inflation. That includes service providers and suppliers. Takeout or de-emphasize third party reimbursement and costs will start to come under control.

    All this talk of things like single payer or universal health care would basically turn health care workers into pseudo government employees and suppliers would basically wind up with mostly government contracts. Government funded and provider health CARE should be there for a back up plan for those who really really need it. Or for those that would rather PAY the government vs the private sector. But it is/should NOT be the only other alternative.

    Rather than search for ways to pay for it find out why it costs so much. Don't just throw money at the problem.

  5. #50
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    Rather than search for ways to pay for it find out why it costs so much. Don't just throw money at the problem.

    Well that's simple. It costs so much because the companies offering it have to make a profit after paying all their expenses and guessing who is insurable and who is not and what to charge those who are at at risk.

    That's the problem with 'for profit" health care. I think is outrageous to make money off of sick peoples backs.

    The Canadian system. The doctors are basically private businesses. They bill the provincial governments and the provincial governments pay them. The provincial governments also cap the fee that they can charge.

    It would never work in the United States. The people of the United States are so inured to free enterprise and competition that they cannot even start to envision a similar proposal where each state takes the same stance as the provinces in Canada.

    Also. The billing practices to the insurance companies must be a nightmare when each patient might have a different insurance plan.



  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camper6 View Post
    Rather than search for ways to pay for it find out why it costs so much. Don't just throw money at the problem.

    Well that's simple. It costs so much because the companies offering it have to make a profit after paying all their expenses and guessing who is insurable and who is not and what to charge those who are at at risk.

    That's the problem with 'for profit" health care. I think is outrageous to make money off of sick peoples backs.

    The Canadian system. The doctors are basically private businesses. They bill the provincial governments and the provincial governments pay them. The provincial governments also cap the fee that they can charge.

    It would never work in the United States. The people of the United States are so inured to free enterprise and competition that they cannot even start to envision a similar proposal where each state takes the same stance as the provinces in Canada.

    Also. The billing practices to the insurance companies must be a nightmare when each patient might have a different insurance plan.


    It's not just 'profit'. Third party or insurance company reimbursements perpetuate inflation or exorbitant/price gouging profit. Insurance in general can fester inflation. I had the same car repair done in two different states where one state mandated insurance companies cover it and another where they didn't. The cost of the repair in the insurance mandated state was about 4 times greater-in a lower cost of living state. But again third party money perpetuates inflation.

    Also with totally inadequate upfront disclosure the providers bill the insurance on what they can get away with. Not just cover their costs and make "a" profit but a price gouging exorbitant profit. Even without an emergency situation to get upfront pricing from the health care industry is minimal at best. At least you get an written estimate/contract from a contractor when it comes to price, not from the health care industry.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camper6 View Post
    Also. The billing practices to the insurance companies must be a nightmare when each patient might have a different insurance plan.
    For sure! Dealing with All these various insurance companies, has forced the doctors and hospitals to maintain large clerical staffs just to process the paperwork...and you can be sure that those employee expenses are passed along to the patients.

    Then, there is the issue with Malpractice Insurance. Our doctors pay anywhere from $80,000 to $250,000 a year for malpractice insurance to protect themselves from our army of Ambulance Chasing Lawyers...and you can guess who ultimately pays those premiums.

    The U.S. and New Zealand are the only nations which allow these Stupid "Ask your Doctor" ads to be constantly broadcast on TV...to the tune at least 12 billion dollars a year...which the drug companies then gleefully pass to the people who are prescribed these drugs.

    Our bloated "for profit" system is so heavily immersed in chasing the Almighty Dollar, that patient care has become a secondary priority. Our system is totally based upon "Treatment", rather than "Prevention", because Treatment rakes in several times as much money as the Health Care Industry would make by trying to convince people to live a healthier lifestyle.

    There are SO many things Wrong with our present system, that flaws could be found in almost every facet. Our government is unable, or unwilling, to seriously begin a major overhaul...instead it just continuously applies "Band-aid" fixes, like Obamacare. But, that is all going to change...and not too far into the future. As costs continue to spiral out of control, the day is fast approaching where neither individuals, nor government subsidies will be able to keep feeding this Monster. Already, some people are faced with paying more for health insurance/care than they pay for food and housing. That is simply unsustainable.
    Things get better with age....I'm approaching Magnificent.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don M. View Post
    For sure! Dealing with All these various insurance companies, has forced the doctors and hospitals to maintain large clerical staffs just to process the paperwork...and you can be sure that those employee expenses are passed along to the patients.

    Then, there is the issue with Malpractice Insurance. Our doctors pay anywhere from $80,000 to $250,000 a year for malpractice insurance to protect themselves from our army of Ambulance Chasing Lawyers...and you can guess who ultimately pays those premiums.

    The U.S. and New Zealand are the only nations which allow these Stupid "Ask your Doctor" ads to be constantly broadcast on TV...to the tune at least 12 billion dollars a year...which the drug companies then gleefully pass to the people who are prescribed these drugs.

    Our bloated "for profit" system is so heavily immersed in chasing the Almighty Dollar, that patient care has become a secondary priority. Our system is totally based upon "Treatment", rather than "Prevention", because Treatment rakes in several times as much money as the Health Care Industry would make by trying to convince people to live a healthier lifestyle.

    There are SO many things Wrong with our present system, that flaws could be found in almost every facet. Our government is unable, or unwilling, to seriously begin a major overhaul...instead it just continuously applies "Band-aid" fixes, like Obamacare. But, that is all going to change...and not too far into the future. As costs continue to spiral out of control, the day is fast approaching where neither individuals, nor government subsidies will be able to keep feeding this Monster. Already, some people are faced with paying more for health insurance/care than they pay for food and housing. That is simply unsustainable.
    "...SO many things Wrong..." which is exactly why Obama or Trump care won't solve the problems. Both bills focus on paying insurance premiums not controlling the costs of actual care. AGAIN third party money(insurance) perpetuates, festers, drives inflation.

    That being said yes things like middlemen called the insurance industry are driving cost including malpractice insurance. But how care is delivered and billed are part of the issue as well. Providers need insurance "qualified"/familiar employees just for billing reasons alone. Setting aside "insurance" for a minute is the lack of upfront fully disclosed and/or package/bundled pricing which festers what ever you can get away with billing. The providers bill what they can get, not what their fee or costs are. They know that the patients and/or insurance companies are defacto hostages once they voluntarily to decide to pay for a service with insurance. Patients also have a whatever mindset what they slap that insurance card on the counter-there was a reason they made medical insurance cards similar to credit cards psychologically.

    Full disclosure pricing should mean consistency in pricing as well. There shouldn't be the 100$ aspirin or band aid. Bill where the costs are, padding the bills elsewhere make it more difficult to identify cost problems for the insurer & patient especially. And have bundle & package deal pricing. Even price out use of a defribbrilator if your heart stops during a procedure. But vague and arbitrary pricing does not help.

    "Fixing" health CARE and COST in the US should be a step by step chip away at it approach. But one sweeping bill/change for political legacy isn't going to do squat.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhatInThe View Post
    "...SO many things Wrong..." which is exactly why Obama or Trump care won't solve the problems. Both bills focus on paying insurance premiums not controlling the costs of actual care. AGAIN third party money(insurance) perpetuates, festers, drives inflation. "Fixing" health CARE and COST in the US should be a step by step chip away at it approach. But one sweeping bill/change for political legacy isn't going to do squat.
    That's right. Our Health Care Industry has been chasing the Almighty Dollar for decades, and this abomination is Not going to get fixed overnight. It's going to require several steps to restore some sanity to this system, and a major and sudden overhaul will only make things worse. However, Washington, and its Masters who fund the politicians campaigns, will be hard pressed to come up with any reasonable solutions until the majority of our people stand up. If you look up the 10 highest paid careers in the U.S., 7 of the top 10 are in the Medical arena. If you go to Opensecrets.org, and look at who funds the politicians campaigns, the Health Care Industry and the Lawyers are at or near the top contributors to the majority of our politicians...Both Democrat and Republican. It's all about Money, and patient care is little more than a "side effect".

    This rising cost of Health Care in the U.S. is going to have dire consequences for our entire population within a very few years....especially for Seniors. Just like Social Security, the Medicare trust funds are being rapidly depleted, and unless positive action is taken, in the very near future, both of these programs will be worth a fraction of today's value. Medicare will be on life support in about 10 years.

    http://www.pgpf.org/analysis/2016/06...ial-shortfalls
    Things get better with age....I'm approaching Magnificent.

  10. #55
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    I strongly believe that part of the problem is our complete inability to comparison shop for health care services. If you need, say, a certain rocedure on your shoulder, you can't call around and see who charges what, because they flat will not (or cannot) tell you. I am aware they can't predict if something might go wrong during the procedure or if it might be worse than expected, but you ought to be able to get a "baseline" price, like when I call around to find out what it will cost to start up my swamp cooler for the summer, I get "Well, our base price is $100, but if you need new pads or pump that would be an additional $50," and so on. When we get medical care, we are agreeing to pay for services for which we have no idea of the cost.

    ALSO, because of lawyers hiding around every corner, the medical industry is forced to order unnecessary tests to rule out every possible thing that might be wrong, no matter how unlikely, in order to cover their own butts from unfounded malpractice claims.

    The whole system is just a mess.

  11. #56
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    I agree with Butterfly the whole system is just a mess!

    I think back to my grandmother in the early sixties, before Medicare. My grandmother carried a modest major medical policy, with a benefits cap, that was intended to help with serious injury or illness. She paid cash for routine office visits, medical tests and prescription drugs. She lived in an area without ambulance service, when a family member was injured or ill you bundled them up and drove them to the hospital. The cost was high enough to pinch but not high enough to put her into bankruptcy. The old system was not perfect by any means but it kept costs within the reach of most average people mainly because you can't get blood from a stone! Then in 1965 Medicare came along and the medical folks found out that you can get blood and buckets of cash from the federal government, since then the whole system has spiraled out of control.

    It seems a shame to me that we live in an age with all of these amazing drugs, talents, treatments, etc... that save and extend life but at the same time drains every nickle to the point where we can't afford to live.

    I think I'm ready to dial it back to a simpler time.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly View Post
    I strongly believe that part of the problem is our complete inability to comparison shop for health care services. If you need, say, a certain rocedure on your shoulder, you can't call around and see who charges what, because they flat will not (or cannot) tell you. I am aware they can't predict if something might go wrong during the procedure or if it might be worse than expected, but you ought to be able to get a "baseline" price, like when I call around to find out what it will cost to start up my swamp cooler for the summer, I get "Well, our base price is $100, but if you need new pads or pump that would be an additional $50," and so on. When we get medical care, we are agreeing to pay for services for which we have no idea of the cost.

    ALSO, because of lawyers hiding around every corner, the medical industry is forced to order unnecessary tests to rule out every possible thing that might be wrong, no matter how unlikely, in order to cover their own butts from unfounded malpractice claims.

    The whole system is just a mess.
    Exactly, lack of up front fully disclosed pricing. Little need to compete. They take the insurance payout for granted along with the patients. The medical care industry is a defacto monopoly with limited choice which keeps prices artificially high based on insurance payouts. Other industries probably could be charged with price fixing with some of the stuff that goes on in the health care industry and/or billing.

    For years it's been said that the AMA/American Medical Association wanted to keep the supply of doctors artificially low, this is a decades old story, might be different now but that mindset led to things like production line medicine ie patients per hour, maximizing insurance payouts/coding etc. The whole model is basically a backdoor monopoly for maximum profit.
    Last edited by WhatInThe; 05-25-2017 at 09:40 AM.

  13. #58
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    I've always considered learning from the problems others have as a free way to avoid doing the same.
    I'm not saying single payer systems are not possible, obviously they are. What I am saying is look at what is happening in countries that are having problems with long established systems and learn from what is impacting them. Beginning with primary care doctor to patient ratio, rural vs. metropolitan. Will adding about 30 million newly covered impact that and end up causing what others are experiencing?

    Excerpts from an Article.
    From Canada to the United Kingdom and even Scandinavia, single-payer systems have proven cripplingly expensive even as they limit patients’ ability to access quality care.

    Consider Canada’s true single-payer system. Patients must wait an average of more than two months to see a specialist after getting a referral from their general practitioner, according to the Fraser Institute, a nonpartisan Canadian think tank. Patients can expect to wait another 9.8 weeks, on average, before receiving the treatment they need from that specialist.
    Overall, Canadians now wait even longer than last year — and 97 percent longer than they did in 1993.
    Access to care is so poor, in fact, that 52,000 Canadians flee to the United States each year for medical attention. They refuse to wait in line for care as their health deteriorates.

    The situation is no better under Great Britain’s mainly government-run health system.
    As of this summer, 3.4 million Brits were stuck on waiting lists — a 36 percent uptick since 2010. Last year, about a million people had to wait more than four months to get treatment. Almost 300,000 waited at least six months.
    As with most centrally-controlled bureaucracies, the British health system is inefficient. According to a recent government report, the country’s National Health Service is plagued by problems like neglect, incorrectly-administered medications and inadequate care for the dying. In some cases, the report concluded that the treatment of patients was “appalling.” Last month, more than 40,000 young doctors threatened an all-out strike over their hours.

    As the Swedish economist Nima Sanandaji recently explained, the country’s socialist experiment has proven “such a colossal failure that few even in the left today view the memory as something positive.”
    https://www.pacificresearch.org/arti...lobal-failure/

    Trump cited Australia as a system to emulate, but that system has problems to.
    http://www.ceda.com.au/2016/03/healt...ost-vulnerable

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    I've always considered learning from the problems others have as a free way to avoid doing the same.
    I'm not saying single payer systems are not possible, obviously they are. What I am saying is look at what is happening in countries that are having problems with long established systems and learn from what is impacting them. Beginning with primary care doctor to patient ratio, rural vs. metropolitan. Will adding about 30 million newly covered impact that and end up causing what others are experiencing?

    Excerpts from an Article.
    From Canada to the United Kingdom and even Scandinavia, single-payer systems have proven cripplingly expensive even as they limit patients’ ability to access quality care.

    Consider Canada’s true single-payer system. Patients must wait an average of more than two months to see a specialist after getting a referral from their general practitioner, according to the Fraser Institute, a nonpartisan Canadian think tank. Patients can expect to wait another 9.8 weeks, on average, before receiving the treatment they need from that specialist.
    Overall, Canadians now wait even longer than last year — and 97 percent longer than they did in 1993.
    Access to care is so poor, in fact, that 52,000 Canadians flee to the United States each year for medical attention. They refuse to wait in line for care as their health deteriorates.

    The situation is no better under Great Britain’s mainly government-run health system.
    As of this summer, 3.4 million Brits were stuck on waiting lists — a 36 percent uptick since 2010. Last year, about a million people had to wait more than four months to get treatment. Almost 300,000 waited at least six months.
    As with most centrally-controlled bureaucracies, the British health system is inefficient. According to a recent government report, the country’s National Health Service is plagued by problems like neglect, incorrectly-administered medications and inadequate care for the dying. In some cases, the report concluded that the treatment of patients was “appalling.” Last month, more than 40,000 young doctors threatened an all-out strike over their hours.

    As the Swedish economist Nima Sanandaji recently explained, the country’s socialist experiment has proven “such a colossal failure that few even in the left today view the memory as something positive.”
    https://www.pacificresearch.org/arti...lobal-failure/

    Trump cited Australia as a system to emulate, but that system has problems to.
    http://www.ceda.com.au/2016/03/healt...ost-vulnerable
    I would be interested to know if those waiting times are across the board, so to speak, or if they are different for different types of procedures. For instance, I had a waiting time for my hip replacements (considered "elective" surgery even though my hips had deteriorated to mush); part of that was because I chose a surgeon who is arguably the best in the area and he has longer waiting times than many (yes, you CAN choose your specialist with medicare); part of it was the nature of the beast, i.e., that many more of us are reaching the age where hips fail and thus there are a lot more of us in line. However, I would not want to wait if I had had a condition where the wait might kill me or lessen my chances for survival.

    How does that scenario play out in Canada, i.e., waiting time for non-elective surgery, treatment, etc.?

  15. #60
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    There is Another Problem coming for our health care system....LacK of PCP/Family doctors. Over 90% of today's Med students are planning on entering some "Specialty", instead of becoming a PCP...because the Specialties are where the Big Bucks are. It may not be much more than 10 years before a lot of communities have few PCP's....as the existing doctors begin to retire.

    I would like to see a government program which subsidizes the education of doctors...IF they commit to becoming a PCP.
    Things get better with age....I'm approaching Magnificent.

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