Religion: The views of an agnostic

Forerunner said:
I don't know what that means. sounds good. :)
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That means that I changed my original categorization to include a group of people like yourself who had first-hand personal experiences in their relation with God and are convinced that God exists because of them and not because of "hearsay" i.e. by listening to others or by reading the scripture. I'm glad you think it's good! :)
 

Buckeye said:
Science has no proof that God does not exist, nor can Science prove that God does exist. You know that. So, no you have not answered my question. I see you claiming God does not exist, because your "logic" tells you so. Sorry, but human logic is not capable of answering everything, and your refusal to see that tells me all I need to know.

And I will say again that the mere presence of life is proof of God's existence. The end.
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I say that the mere presence of life is proof of the Flying Spaghetti Monster's existence. The end. :cool:
 

It's all too easy to see the world through 'Rose tinted glasses' and associate this with a god who created it. It however ignores the bad things in the world.. I'm not talking about man made problems, but what about disease, what about children born with deformities or incurable illness ?
If this 'god' created the good things, then surely he/she/it must be equally responsible for the bad.

Come to think about it, why did this 'god' even bother creating a universe 13+ billion years ago. Why did things go through millions of years of evolution. Why were the dinosaurs killed off? How many versions of hominoids were created before homo sapiens evolved?

I don't know why the universe came into existence. If I believed it was a 'god' who created it, then I would have to assume that he/she/it was on a massive ego trip that went sadly awry. I would also ask, who created this god? Are people going to say that this god always existed? That would be so convenient, wouldn't it.

Oh poo! I just want to enjoy my life, and when I die, that's it - the end.
 
Lara said:
@raybar , there is good and evil all around us. Look for the good, for the amazing, for the incredible, for the beautiful, for the magnificent, for the love, for the joy, for the kindness, and you will see God's handiwork. That's evidence and so much more...

You're in California...stare at the ocean, see all the shades of blue and emerald green, see the beauty of the sunrise and sunset, the dolphins jumping playfully out of the water and communicating, the horizon, the stars. Feel the mighty power of the waves, sand under your feet, the ocean breeze, smell the salt air, bend down to touch a starfish and remember the the entire living ecosystem beneath the surface of the water. Take a deep breath and feel good about being alive. Who gave you the nose and lungs to be able to do that? hmm, who is this intelligent designer? A big chaotic bang? A mud puddle? Where did all the energy come from?
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Your last sentence: "Where did all the energy come from?" That's the real question. Not, "Does God exist?" The real question is "Why is there anything rather than nothing?" How and why does the universe exist?

God is an answer to that question; the world exists because God made and sustains it.

I see the beauty around us. I appreciate all the things you mentioned. But this is not evidence of God. It is simply observation. Evidence of
God could be something like "A, B, C, D, and E all exist and interact with one another. But there is no possible way this combination of things, and the interactions between them, could arise naturally. In fact, this these phenomena violate all the laws of physics (as far as we understand them). Therefore an external agent, which is making these thing happen, must exist."

After the big bang, everything that has occurred - the entire development of the universe we see around us - is consistent with the laws of physics (so far as we understand them). We still much to learn, but I have never heard of a single counter-example.

Questions such as "is there a god" or "why is there anything" or "what's the source of the universe" are not even addressed by any of this. There's just no evidence to consider, neither pro nor con.

In the end I come to what I said above (message 9 of this thread): "My reason for not believing is the complete lack of evidence (to my knowledge) that there exists a god."

Maybe there is a god, maybe not. Belief is a matter of faith, not evidence.
 
Is there a god? I'm on a "need to know" basis, and I don't need to know. It doesn't make any difference in my life, and that seems to upset some people too. Go figure...
 
Interesting thread.

I believe that the complexity of the universe is evidence of design and creation. I can't buy into the theory that it all happened by accident.

The beginning?
 
raybar said:
Your last sentence: "Where did all the energy come from?" That's the real question. Not, "Does God exist?" The real question is "Why is there anything rather than nothing?" How and why does the universe exist?

God is an answer to that question; the world exists because God made and sustains it.
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"God" is simply a way to explain things that, at at a certain point in time, we don't understand.

Back when people didn't understand earthquakes, volcanos, storms, lightening, floods, droughts, and other natural disasters, they believed "god" was responsible. Most people no longer hold those beliefs (in developed nations, anyway) because we now understand the science behind those phenomena. Some day, we'll understand more about the beginning of time and the creation of the universe or in all likelihood, universes. When that day comes, perhaps people will cease believing in "god."
 
Irwin said:
"God" is simply a way to explain things that, at at a certain point in time, we don't understand.

Back when people didn't understand earthquakes, volcanos, storms, lightening, floods, droughts, and other natural disasters, they believed "god" was responsible. Most people no longer hold those beliefs (in developed nations, anyway) because we now understand the science behind those phenomena. Some day, we'll understand more about the beginning of time and the creation of the universe or in all likelihood, universes. When that day comes, perhaps people will cease believing in "god."
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Yes, the "god of the gaps" has been shrinking for a long time. But even if all the gaps are eliminated, and we understand everything about how things work throughout the multiverse, I wonder if we would ever find the ultimate source of existence.

And I often wonder whether we are really asking the right questions.
 
Irwin said:
Some day, we'll understand more about the beginning of time and the creation of the universe or in all likelihood, universes. When that day comes, perhaps people will cease believing in "god."
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I believe we already know when the beginning of time was...when the sun and the moon were created, giving us day and night...thus "time".
That was for our benefit, to have light by day and moon light by night for navigation. And no, that knowledge is not going to make believers cease in believing in God.
 
raybar said:
Yes, the "god of the gaps" has been shrinking for a long time. But even if all the gaps are eliminated, and we understand everything about how things work throughout the multiverse, I wonder if we would ever find the ultimate source of existence.

And I often wonder whether we are really asking the right questions.
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"All the gaps" will never be eliminated because that would eliminate "faith". God wants to be loved through our faith in Him.
You ask "will we ever find the ultimate source of existence? I believe we have...God's creation. Did you mean, who created God? I believe he wasn't created. He just is and always will be existing. We can't understand for now because our brains aren't able.
 
CAKCy said:
I knew that "The End" would have more sequels than Mission Impossible....

I am an agnostic. I don't need to prove anything. Logic has not failed me at all.
In my OP I said that I wouldn't debate religion with anyone belonging in Group A.
I don't think you do...
Unless you raise the bar of this debate I really think I don't need to do better!

(You missed your "doomsday" statement....)
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Good because you certainly haven't proven me wrong. And now you are trying to renege on your initial post about not debating religion with believers. And you never did say if you believed in quarks or not.

Try harder.
 
raybar said:
Yes, the "god of the gaps" has been shrinking for a long time. But even if all the gaps are eliminated, and we understand everything about how things work throughout the multiverse, I wonder if we would ever find the ultimate source of existence.

And I often wonder whether we are really asking the right questions.
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People are asking "why are we here?" and in all probability, there is no satisfying answer.
 
Lara said:
"All the gaps" will never be eliminated because that would eliminate "faith". God wants to be loved through our faith in Him.
You ask "will we ever find the ultimate source of existence? I believe we have...God's creation. Did you mean, who created God? I believe he wasn't created. He just is and always will be existing. We can't understand for now because our brains aren't able.
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Knowledge of how the universe functions would never be a challenge to your faith. Instead of doubt, you might find your faith enhanced by the same sense of awe and wonder and majesty I get from understanding the world around me, even just a little.

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In Message 91 above, you said you "believe we already know when the beginning of time was...when the sun and the moon were created ..."

This is factually incorrect. The universe, based on very solid evidence, is about 13.8 billion years old, and the earth about 4.5 billions old. The world did not come about as portrayed in Genesis.

But again, that's not a challenge to your faith. Biblical stories are not about being factually and historically correct (most of my family disagree). I heard it said in a discussion once somewhere that "if you're worried about whether it's true, you've missed the point of the story." These stories are about our relationship with God. The details of the story aren't very important. Would the lessons in the Flood story change if it had rained on Noah for 50 days instead of 40? Would it make any difference if Jesus had risen in 3 weeks instead of 3 days?

Faith is about god - that he exists, that he created and sustains everything, that we have a relationship with him, and so on. It's not, I suggest, about whether these ancient stories are scientifically and historically accurate.
 
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Gardenlover said:
Interesting thread.

I believe that the complexity of the universe is evidence of design and creation. I can't buy into the theory that it all happened by accident.

The beginning?
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The complexity of the universe is not evidence of anything. If nothing else one should observe the random events that happen in space. Death and creation of new celestial bodies.

The beginning? We don't understand it. Yet. But simply because we don't understand it doesn't mean that there is a God. Because if one's logic reaches to the second step of the creation: "Since there's a beginning we don't understand... therefore God"... it shouldn't stop there. It should have the power to move on to the first step: "Who created God?".
 
Buckeye said:
Good because you certainly haven't proven me wrong. And now you are trying to renege on your initial post about not debating religion with believers. And you never did say if you believed in quarks or not.

Try harder.
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As I said: I don't need to prove anything. The burden of proof lies on the shoulders of the one who makes the assertion. Identify yourself as a member of Group A and I will stop debating with you. Besides I happen to be the OP of this thread. You came afterwards questioning my post. ;)
 
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