Nathan
SF VIP
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- High Desert- Calif.
Creativity of Belief: The question of belief is not what but why do we beleive as we do?
- Thread starter Mr. Ed
- Start date
Mizmo
Well-known Member
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
I was raised in a strong Catholic environment. Living up to the the bible was the rule.
The local priest and Monsignor who visited once a month put the 'fear of God' in to us as children and as was expressed by adults.
Note, I used the common expression 'Fear of God"
How did that happen. Why should we fear God ?
So I won't go any further than to say as I got older and reached the age of reasoning as they say I formed my own beliefs.
I do believe we have some strong force urging us on but feel it is up to us as individuals to lead our own lives in the best possible way we can and allow others to do likewise no matter their beliefs. To each his own.
Treat others as we would wish to be treated ourselves ....now I feel a rant coming on so will stop.......
The local priest and Monsignor who visited once a month put the 'fear of God' in to us as children and as was expressed by adults.
Note, I used the common expression 'Fear of God"
How did that happen. Why should we fear God ?
So I won't go any further than to say as I got older and reached the age of reasoning as they say I formed my own beliefs.
I do believe we have some strong force urging us on but feel it is up to us as individuals to lead our own lives in the best possible way we can and allow others to do likewise no matter their beliefs. To each his own.
Treat others as we would wish to be treated ourselves ....now I feel a rant coming on so will stop.......
Alligatorob
SF VIP
I only believe what I can see that makes logical sense to me.
At this point in life it does not include a god, just never seen any objective evidence for one.
Knight
Well-known Member
We, my wife & I have prospered. Not willing to say how much financially, but well enough to be able to live above middle class in retirement. But financially isn't the only measure of prospering. 3 great sons all self sufficient & contributing to society.
If God plans to prosper you and according to you, you accept the plan why are there millions of homeless that believe yet aren't prospering? Or those born handicapped that will never prosper? Exactly who fits the criteria to enjoy the plan to prosper if there are millions perhaps billions world wide that have faith in a creator yet aren't prospering?
The bible has some pretty scary stuff in it. Like the wrath of a creator that killed all mankind except Noah. Then there is a nice part about how animals are good & bad yet got a spot on the ark. Don't know how this was accomplished. Recent studies estimate the total number of living and extinct kinds of land animals and flying creatures to be about 1,500. With our “worst-case” scenario approach to calculating the number of animals on the Ark, this would mean that Noah cared for approximately 7,000 animals. All those for
Jan 29, 2012 — It may have only rained 40 days and 40 nights, but Scripture tells us they remained on board the Ark for over a year! It says Noah was 600 years ...
https://sevensinthebible.com › 2012/01/29 › genesis-8-...
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Tabby Ann
Member
- Location
- Southern Indiana
I think you are right that beliefs are created by life experiences. Everyone needs a moral code to live by, and I agree with Thomas Jefferson, who didn’t endorse any particular religion, but said “The teachings of Jesus Christ provide the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man.” These teachings are straightforward and defined in Gospels. God on the other hand, is something each man has created in his own image and no one can define God, and most who claim to believe or not in God, can’t even define what it is they do or don’t believe in. Albert Einstein said he believed in a God who reveals himself in the lawful harmony of the universe.
Lara
Friend of the Arts
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- Mid-Atlantic Coast
@Knight...I sincerely am happy for how well and happy your family is. Doing this all on your own is amazing and you deserve all the fruits of your labor. Sounds like God is well pleased with you and perhaps your father before you. Scripture talks about the affects of the fathers upon their children for up to 3 generations in some cases.
Your second paragraph is a little confusing. You say you, you, you, 3 times but then switch to the homeless in the same sentence. What happens between God and I does not affect the homeless (unless I'm specifically praying for them of course and if it's God's will).
The homeless are their own person and their relationship with God is personal. Only God knows their hearts and only He knows if they are truly Christian believers. And we don't know God's plan for them whether they're believers or not. Maybe God is teaching them or humbling them or "polishing" them first with tests or experiences before blessing them with prosperity.
We can't guess nor assume what God is thinking. We're not on His level. I choose to trust His perfect plan which extends beyond this short life on into eternity. This life is a speck in the big picture.
I don't discuss the Old Testament. I respect it as a valuable historical documentation, through God, of creation and life before Christ, wisdom, lessons, etc. But when Christ was born with the purpose of offering believers forgiveness for our sins rather than punishment/sacrifices, that changed everything from "scary stuff", as you say, to grace and love. That's why "Christ" is in "Christian" and defines my faith. When I pray I always close with "In Jesus name I pray, amen"
Your second paragraph is a little confusing. You say you, you, you, 3 times but then switch to the homeless in the same sentence. What happens between God and I does not affect the homeless (unless I'm specifically praying for them of course and if it's God's will).
The homeless are their own person and their relationship with God is personal. Only God knows their hearts and only He knows if they are truly Christian believers. And we don't know God's plan for them whether they're believers or not. Maybe God is teaching them or humbling them or "polishing" them first with tests or experiences before blessing them with prosperity.
We can't guess nor assume what God is thinking. We're not on His level. I choose to trust His perfect plan which extends beyond this short life on into eternity. This life is a speck in the big picture.
I don't discuss the Old Testament. I respect it as a valuable historical documentation, through God, of creation and life before Christ, wisdom, lessons, etc. But when Christ was born with the purpose of offering believers forgiveness for our sins rather than punishment/sacrifices, that changed everything from "scary stuff", as you say, to grace and love. That's why "Christ" is in "Christian" and defines my faith. When I pray I always close with "In Jesus name I pray, amen"
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dseag2
Dallas, TX
- Location
- Dallas, TX
Sorry, but I don't consider myself weak because I have chosen to identify that there are many Christians who are disingenuous. From my experience, I know there are many churchgoers that are strong believers and good people. It has been the leaders of the church that have not been good people, and those that have chosen to follow them have been duped. There are so many examples.
"Weak"? I think not. I am strong enough to have my own beliefs.
https://stories.avvo.com/nakedlaw/b...hy-preachers-under-federal-investigation.html
Lara
Friend of the Arts
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- Mid-Atlantic Coast
You misunderstood my post it seems. Those who blame true Christians as a whole for religious imposters are weak to see the difference. If "Christians" are disingenuous, as you say, then they are not Christians, as God says. The choice of wording as "weak" is maybe not the perfect word but you get my drift...unless you don't. This is what I said...
"What I don't understand is why adults blame Christianity as a whole for those who are "wolves in sheeps clothing" who we are told to beware of, for those who are hypocrites claiming to be Christians but not. Those who do more harm than good over and over again are not Christians even if they say they are, even if they call themselves preachers. I find them easy to spot and avoid them. But I don't place blame on all of Christianity for their damaging hypocrisy. Unfortunately, they do cause disbelief and and resentment among the weak who really believe these hypocrites are real Christians.
PS...I didn't mean to offend you and I'm not trying to change your mind. I thank you for the opportunity to clarify. There will always be bad apples trying to spoil the bushel of good apples. Don't blame the good apples. It's the other way around.
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oldpop
Member
- Location
- Inner Space
I believe in a power that is greater than myself. I have seen that power work. If you look closely you will too. I gave up trying to figure it out. I have come to the conclusion that whatever it is it is beyond my comprehension. I do not worship it. I accept the fact that it exists and I am comfortable with that. More importantly to me is learning how to become a better human being. I have good days and bad days but everyday I try to move a little more in the that direction.
Knight
Well-known Member
Just using the you in your post #47.
Quote
"This is not a contradiction at all.
The Lord has "plans to prosper you and not harm you, plans to give you hope and a future".
As you know, you were created with a free will to say "yes, I accept your plan" or "no, I don't want to follow your plan. I'll do it my way"
Post #56
Your second paragraph is a little confusing. You say you, you, you, 3 times but then switch to the homeless in the same sentence. What happens between God and I does not affect the homeless (unless I'm specifically praying for them of course and if it's God's will).
I'll break down what I wrote
If God plans to prosper [1st.you] and according to [2nd. you], [3rd.you] accept the plan why are there millions of homeless that believe yet aren't prospering?
1st. If God plans to prosper you,<--- that you refers to all, maybe better written as every human on earth.
2nd. According to you, that you refers to LARA.
3rd. You,<--- back to the you meaning all as in every human on earth. --- accept the plan. Why are there millions of homeless that believe yet aren't prospering?
The plan for everyone to prosper, not harm & give hope doesn't distinguish between those with faith or not. It's a straight forward declaration.
Kind of difficult to understand that "not to harm" when according to the bible mankind was murdered except Noah & his family that were the only survivors of a flood.
Quote
"This is not a contradiction at all.
The Lord has "plans to prosper you and not harm you, plans to give you hope and a future".
As you know, you were created with a free will to say "yes, I accept your plan" or "no, I don't want to follow your plan. I'll do it my way"
Post #56
Your second paragraph is a little confusing. You say you, you, you, 3 times but then switch to the homeless in the same sentence. What happens between God and I does not affect the homeless (unless I'm specifically praying for them of course and if it's God's will).
I'll break down what I wrote
If God plans to prosper [1st.you] and according to [2nd. you], [3rd.you] accept the plan why are there millions of homeless that believe yet aren't prospering?
1st. If God plans to prosper you,<--- that you refers to all, maybe better written as every human on earth.
2nd. According to you, that you refers to LARA.
3rd. You,<--- back to the you meaning all as in every human on earth. --- accept the plan. Why are there millions of homeless that believe yet aren't prospering?
The plan for everyone to prosper, not harm & give hope doesn't distinguish between those with faith or not. It's a straight forward declaration.
1. Jeremiah 29:11
"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.Kind of difficult to understand that "not to harm" when according to the bible mankind was murdered except Noah & his family that were the only survivors of a flood.
Mr. Ed
Be what you is not what you what you ain’t
- Location
- Central NY
From your post, I see that you determined that the platypus is a mistake? Personally, I do not have the authority to determine if a life form is a mistake. Has anyone seen a two-headed turtle or snake with two head? What about Siamese Twins, or babies born connected to one another? Granted these examples may be extreme, just the same they are mistakes of nature. Society determines the norm and although what may be determined a deformity is classified as such because society deems it this way. Yet, despite judgement from society, there are no mistakes in nature only variations.
Mr. Ed
Be what you is not what you what you ain’t
- Location
- Central NY
"Focusing on a single entity to blame doesn’t make sense to me.
@rgp said "I respectfully disagree. ........ if we are going to praise him for all that is good ? ...... then equally he should be blamed for all that is bad. ........... If he even exsist ?”
God exists, but not in the way you describe God to be. Sure God is recognized as the father figure of existence, but perhaps God is also every living and non-live being in partnership with one another? I cannot explain God but I accept God as I understand my God to be. There is within me a godly spirit who gives me peace and understanding of the world as I see it. I call it God.
@rgp said "I respectfully disagree. ........ if we are going to praise him for all that is good ? ...... then equally he should be blamed for all that is bad. ........... If he even exsist ?”
God exists, but not in the way you describe God to be. Sure God is recognized as the father figure of existence, but perhaps God is also every living and non-live being in partnership with one another? I cannot explain God but I accept God as I understand my God to be. There is within me a godly spirit who gives me peace and understanding of the world as I see it. I call it God.
Lara
Friend of the Arts
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic Coast
Before Jeremiah 29:11 can be applied, it must first be understood in context. This is is the long version. If you read nothing else, read the last two paragraphs. When interpreting Scripture, keep in mind the distinction between a passage’s meaning and the same passage’s application...a passage can have only one meaning, but it may have many applications.Jeremiah 29:11 is no different. The verse has only one meaning.
In the primary application, Jeremiah 29:11 has nothing to do with any person living today. This verse applied only to the Jews in the Old Testament who were in exile in Babylon during the sixth century BC. However, the sentiment expressed is so beautiful and encouraging, is there not any sense in which it applies today? The answer is, yes.
Jeremiah 29:11 has other applications. In particular, this verse reflects a more general principle of God’s grace and affections for those whom He loves, including the modern church. This more general application can be made because of the unchanging nature of God.
In the Old Testament God had promised to bring Israel back; therefore, the exiles could be assured that they had a future and a hope. This promise was not made to all nations at the time, but only to Israel. Likewise, God has promised believers in Christ certain things that are not applicable to the human race in general.
For those who are in Christ, God has promised that our sins are forgiven and we stand before God justified. God has plans for those in Christ, and those plans are good.
Believers in Christ can be confident that all things will work together for our good and that God has a future planned for us. We have hope that “does not put us to shame”. We have been given promises to rely on, just as Israel was. So, if by quoting Jeremiah 29:11 we are thinking of our security in Christ, then the wording is appropriate, even if the historical context does not apply.
A word of caution, however, that Jeremiah 29:11 can be misused as well. First, it is sometimes wrongly applied to humanity in general. Strictly speaking, the promise of Jeremiah 29:11 does not apply to every human being, but only those who are in Christ. Perhaps it could even be extended as part of the invitation to receive Christ: “If you come to Him, He promises you a future and a hope!” Outside of Christ, the only Savior, there is no future and no hope (see John 3:18).
The second danger of using this verse without understanding the context is the same as the danger of taking Romans 8:28 out of context. Jeremiah 29:11 promised that the nation of Israel would be restored, but very few of the exiles lived to see the fulfillment of that prophecy 70 years later. Most of them died without seeing the future that God had planned. Likewise, the future and hope we have in Christ are not a guarantee that things will go well in this life. For most believers throughout history and in the world today, the world is a cold and dangerous place. In fact, the promise outlined in Romans 8:28 is specifically that, even though believers will face all sorts of dangers and persecutions in this life (trouble, hardship, persecution, famine, nakedness, danger, sword—see verse 35), Christ will never abandon them. In this life, believers have hope because of the work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, but the future and the hope and the prosperity that God has planned for believers will be fully realized only after this life of suffering is over.
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Knight
Well-known Member
Quite lengthy & conflicted. To follow the thread title I'll pick out a few sentences to demonstrate why my belief in a supernatural power watching over ALL mankind doesn't work for me.
Begins with.
Quote
"In the Old Testament God had promised to bring Israel back; therefore, the exiles could be assured that they had a future and a hope."
Then there is this
Quote
" Jeremiah 29:11 promised that the nation of Israel would be restored, but very few of the exiles lived to see the fulfillment of that prophecy 70 years later."
Quote
"Believers in Christ can be confident that all things will work together for our good and that God has a future planned for us." <----For OUR good
Quote
"For those who are in Christ, God has promised that our sins are forgiven and we stand before God justified. God has plans for those in Christ, and those plans are good."<----Plans limited to those in Christ.
Interpreting the bible to fit whatever makes anyone comfortable is great. For me far to many inconsistencies.
Begins with.
Quote
"In the Old Testament God had promised to bring Israel back; therefore, the exiles could be assured that they had a future and a hope."
Then there is this
Quote
" Jeremiah 29:11 promised that the nation of Israel would be restored, but very few of the exiles lived to see the fulfillment of that prophecy 70 years later."
Quote
"Believers in Christ can be confident that all things will work together for our good and that God has a future planned for us." <----For OUR good
Quote
"For those who are in Christ, God has promised that our sins are forgiven and we stand before God justified. God has plans for those in Christ, and those plans are good."<----Plans limited to those in Christ.
Interpreting the bible to fit whatever makes anyone comfortable is great. For me far to many inconsistencies.
Lara
Friend of the Arts
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic Coast
Again you have quoted things out of context to give an "inconsistent" perspective. Some non-believers just don't want to see clearly. Or they can't because "clouds" get in their way. For instance, in context "ours" refers to "us" which refers to the body of Christ aka Christians.
Another example of "out of context" inconsistencies. You said God promised to restore Israel but the exiles didn't live long enough to to see the fulfillment of that prophecy 70 years later.
Umm, you left off the part that said, "Christ will never abandon them. In this life...the future and the hope and the prosperity that God has planned for believers will be fully realized only after this life of suffering is over."
Why did you leave that off?
`
Another example of "out of context" inconsistencies. You said God promised to restore Israel but the exiles didn't live long enough to to see the fulfillment of that prophecy 70 years later.
Umm, you left off the part that said, "Christ will never abandon them. In this life...the future and the hope and the prosperity that God has planned for believers will be fully realized only after this life of suffering is over."
Why did you leave that off?
`
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JaniceM
Well-known Member
- Location
- still lost between two shores..
I was going to say if you'd actually read my posts you know that is not what I said..
However, some advice I was given long ago by an Admin of another forum came to mind... he said when someone is clearly trying to pick a fight, trying to bait me into an argument, it's usually better to just shrug it off and walk away from it.
*shrugs.. walks away*
JaniceM
Well-known Member
- Location
- still lost between two shores..
You have a few posts in this thread but this is the first one I found, and seems to be directed to me.
To clarify, I don't know if "my" viewpoint on this is a widely-held viewpoint or not:
The way I look at it: if you've seen a movie multiple times or read a book such as a novel multiple times, you "know" everything that is going to happen, what the characters will do, and the outcome.. but even though you know all of these things, you aren't orchestrating or controlling those things. And the way I see it, similarly, God "knows" every aspect of a person's life from start to finish, but is not orchestrating or controlling it.
Also, trying to recall one of your other posts- I believe God wants the best for EVERYBODY, good happy prosperous lives. But while nature can interfere (such as a child born with disabilities), so can free will- a person's life can go off track or even end due to that person's or someone else's use of their free will.
Nathan
SF VIP
- Location
- High Desert- Calif.
I frequently look for an opportunity to interject a lighthearted comment, even in "serious" conversations.
I regard the platypus as evidence that God has a sense of humor.
Mr. Ed
Be what you is not what you what you ain’t
- Location
- Central NY
Ahh! Satire
David777
Well-known Member
- Location
- Silicon Valley
In this Internet information and modern science era for the anti-religious, it is easy to find Bible passages to criticize or show as inconsistent and then rigidly conclude the whole book is of little worth. But this is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. It is exasperated by denominations strongly pushing inerrancy, that every word in the book is Holy Spirit inspired making it easy targets for critics. For example Noah's Flood story are favorite passages to ridicule while fundamentalist Young Earth Creationists loudly stubbornly, impossibly, try to defend such.
But if one actually studies scholars work through centuries, that will show they had far less such inerrant beliefs versus church authorities and their politicians who had a public agenda of keeping control of their flock. If one analyzes the OT Bible from the perspective that much was not written by inspired scribes, nor later interpreted exactly by Greeks, was much edited over centuries by scribes controlled by politicians, then one can interpret the book with much historic value though with limited certainty. The New Testament on the other hand is more reliable but for decades in the first century was only passed down through oral tradition, not written down, and the minor differences between synoptic gospels shows that and in fact on analysis makes it far more believable. Don't dismiss the Bible because of what men with agendas have interpreted and written but seek its true wisdom.
But if one actually studies scholars work through centuries, that will show they had far less such inerrant beliefs versus church authorities and their politicians who had a public agenda of keeping control of their flock. If one analyzes the OT Bible from the perspective that much was not written by inspired scribes, nor later interpreted exactly by Greeks, was much edited over centuries by scribes controlled by politicians, then one can interpret the book with much historic value though with limited certainty. The New Testament on the other hand is more reliable but for decades in the first century was only passed down through oral tradition, not written down, and the minor differences between synoptic gospels shows that and in fact on analysis makes it far more believable. Don't dismiss the Bible because of what men with agendas have interpreted and written but seek its true wisdom.
Knight
Well-known Member
I'm not going to copy & paste the verses.
15 VERSES THAT PROVE GOD HAS A PLAN FOR YOUR LIFE
https://therescuedletters.com/15-verses-that-prove-god-has-a-plan-for-your-life/
Again I'm not understanding how God can plan the lives of every human yet not orchestrate it. I'm guessing free will the catch all for any deviation from the plan is the culprit. According to the bible the last time mankind deviated the merciful supernatural being billions of years old referred to as God murdered everyone but Noah & his family. Considering the difference in population growth is it possible a certain percent has to deviate from plans?
JaniceM
Well-known Member
- Location
- still lost between two shores..
Re: the bolded part- yes, I believe that is usually the case.
As for the Flood, and the reasons behind it- I honestly don't have an answer to that.
Mizmo
Well-known Member
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
Well folks getting away from all this high end church talk you all really know that we came from the sea and evolved through millions of years to what we are today. Some not totally evolved and living in jungles and the depths of the seas
After all we do start life in the womb just like a little tadpole for the first few weeks...
don't hit me...just sayin'
Sorry Adam et al....
After all we do start life in the womb just like a little tadpole for the first few weeks...
don't hit me...just sayin'
Sorry Adam et al....
it's a common desire
and
it's in The Lord's prayer
'forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us'
If one studies, one will find everything biblical is for the good of mankind
even the flood....even Sodom and Gomorrah
They were destroyed to keep them from destroying the world
It'll happen again
Not because God is vengeful
Quite the contrary
Because He is merciful
We can't go too much longer how we're going
grahamg
Old codger
- Location
- South of Manchester, UK
My daughter shared the same thought with her classmates at about the same age, (not unusually the same thinking her mother held on the subject).
However the reaction of her classmates was quite different to yours, and they maybe put a slight chink in the armour of my daughter, and maybe she was given some inclining as to how little she understood of what she professed not to believe in, because she didn't seem quite so certain on the day to me..
Whether it did or not, my daughter continued to refuse to take an interest in the religious education she received in school/school according to her school reports, so turning her back on teachings like, "Do unto others as you would be done unto", and "Honour thy father and they mother,....", or "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", (such innocuous, and seemingly beneficial to all thinking like that!).
Looking at the positives though my daughter chose a career in a "caring profession", and her skills will benefit many people whatever her views on religion, so you could say God will be working through her, and I doubt she'll always be able to insulate herself from those with strong beliefs she attempts to treat.