If Russia Attacks Ukraine

[fmdog44]

We cannot win a conventional war in Europe against Russia. Russia will not tolerate Ukraine entering NATO. To my thinking, there is little that can be done to stop them. Russia may be trying to pull off a Hitler in Poland move saying Ukraine fired first. Scary stuff any way you look at it.

 

[Pepper]

I see no advantage to NATO if Ukraine is asked to join. I don't think it's worth it to constantly tickle the prickly Russia. It's not the cold war after all.

 

[Aunt Bea]

The thing that bothers me most about this issue is Putin and Biden talking over the heads of the people in Ukraine like they are the last slice of pizza in the box.

IMO the Ukrainian's should be leading these discussions about their future and the free nations of the world should be willing to support them without any single nation stepping in to take the lead.

 

[Pepper]

Ukraine is corrupt, and always had problems, i.e. the White Russians, the cossacks. I know that's a long time ago, but the feeling persists through the decades.

 

[Packerjohn]

There always have been wars and there always will be. Too bad. The world is greatly over populated but I wish they used birth control instead of war machines which waste such resources. Maybe it's a good way to install some discipline in the "me" generation which doesn't seem to have any feelings for anyone other than themselves. My father, who died in 1962, used to say that this country needs a war to discipline the young hoodlums. Maybe the old guy was right?

 

[Pepper]

No, @Packerjohn, the old guy was not right.

 

[JaniceM]

There always have been wars and there always will be. Too bad. The world is greatly over populated but I wish they used birth control instead of war machines which waste such resources. Maybe it's a good way to install some discipline in the "me" generation which doesn't seem to have any feelings for anyone other than themselves. My father, who died in 1962, used to say that this country needs a war to discipline the young hoodlums. Maybe the old guy was right?

You seem to forget- "the 'Me' generation" was ours.

 

[JaniceM]

We cannot win a conventional war in Europe against Russia. Russia will not tolerate Ukraine entering NATO. To my thinking, there is little that can be done to stop them. Russia may be trying to pull off a Hitler in Poland move saying Ukraine fired first. Scary stuff any way you look at it.

and as the U.S. has quite a long history of getting involved when they/we shouldn't, my personal concern is for 4 family members currently in the military- including one of my kids.
What the * was the purpose of ending involvement in Afghanistan if only to find another war zone to send "our troops"?!

 

[Don M.]

IMO, the best advice for our government was spoken by Teddy Roosevelt, years ago...."Speak Softly, but Carry a Big Stick".

Virtually ALL of the military "engagements" the U.S. has become involved in, since WWII, have become a major Fiasco....resulting in little other than a waste of our resources and lives.

Let other nations do as they wish, with the clear understanding that if we are attacked, the retaliation will be very harsh.

 

[Alligatorob]

This is a hard one, I'd sure like to see an independent Ukraine, but I also don't want yet another unending war. Or any war for that matter.

Hopefully cooler heads and diplomacy will prevail.

 

[Irwin]

We screwed ourselves with our invasions and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan. We gained absolutely nothing from all the lives and money lost by those actions and we lost all credibility in world affairs which we won't see again in our lifetime. Russia knows that's we're not going to protect Ukraine because we can't; we don't have the will or the money. We might just as well hold the door for them as they encroach into their neighbor's sovereignty.

If we did want to protect Ukraine, our best option would be to send in troops right now and engage in a standoff with Russia on the border. It would eventually end in a stalemate. Hopefully. But there's no way the U.S. is going to do that. That would have been an option if not for our Iraq/Afghanistan blunders. Now, the only recourses we have at our disposal are sanctions and embargos, and those actions will hurt the people of Russia far more than it will affect the oligarchs who caused the problems.

 

[Pepper]

those actions will hurt the people of Russia far more than it will affect the oligarchs who caused the problems.

Don't worry, they're all here in my co-op. Just kidding. Most of them are Ukrainians. Any Jew with a brain left Ukraine they told me. My four building co-op has become mostly Russian & Ukrainian over the years. Many languages are spoken around here, but in the main it's Russian & dialects of that.

My grandma, from Odessa called herself Russian. All her friends & acquaintances from that area said they were Russians. If my memory is correct, Ukraine was part of, or absorbed by Russia. Kruschchev, as a gift to his Ukrainian born wife, granted separate status to Ukraine. I'm not gonna look this up, so tell me if my memory is wrong.

Russia is currently barking that they will have physical presence in Venezuela, Cuba. They see this as the same as the west inviting Ukraine into NATO. They feel as threatened by that as we do about them. Putin wants assurance we won't back Ukraine's entry into NATO. I think we should give him that assurance.

It's like a broken record, playing the same dirge over & over.

View attachment 203830

 

[Flaneuse]

@Pepper - Your grandmother likely sees Ukraine as part of the former USSR, of which Russia was the most prominent republic. Some Ukrainians are certainly ethnic Russians (especially in the east) but not all and this doesn't justify Russia's attempts to reabsorb what is an independent nation. If we give in to Putin on this - what do we give in on next? Putin is a (murdering) bully and I believe in standing up to bullies, not letting them have their way.

 

[Lavinia]

This is the reason why Ukraine wanted to join the EU....for the military support. In my opinion, we shouldn't get involved...it's between Russia and the Ukraine.
The big worry though is if Putin is not content with regaining Ukraine....what if he wants to claim back all of the former Soviet countries?

 

[ElCastor]

Ukraine is corrupt, and always had problems, i.e. the White Russians, the cossacks. I know that's a long time ago, but the feeling persists through the decades.

Ukraine has had problems alright -- as in the Holodomor famine engineered by Stalin to seize the land of family farmers, a famine that took the lives of nearly 4 million Ukrainians. Today's WSJ has an interesting piece on Putin's motives. If he proceeds, his reason for seizing Ukraine may be domestic -- an attempt to appease his critics at home.

 

[Pepper]

@Pepper - Your grandmother likely sees Ukraine as part of the former USSR, of which Russia was the most prominent republic.

Grandma, and her friends mentioned, were lucky enough to have left before there was a USSR. It was still Russia.

 

[JimBob1952]

We won't fight for Ukraine. I don't think Putin really wants it, either. He doesn't have the resources to occupy it. What he really wants, I couldn't tell you.

 

[Chet]

I can see Putin’s concern in a way. Ukraine becoming part of NATO would be similar to Khrushchev's missiles in Cuba, but Khrushchev had aggressive intentions while NATO’s are defensive. Why does Russia insist on being the big bully anyway? It’s probably an ego thing because no one means any harm to them.

 

[Alligatorob]

What he really wants, I couldn't tell you.

International recognition that the Crimea is his?

Why does Russia insist on being the big bully anyway? It’s probably an ego thing because no one means any harm to them.

Russia has a very long history of being invaded, think of the Mongols, Napoleon, and Hitler. The need to protect their borders by this kind of thing is deep seeded. I don't think it makes sense in today's world but I suspect this is much of what's behind it.

We screwed ourselves with our invasions and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Agree completely on Iraq, no reason for that and it was a disaster. Afghanistan ended in disaster as well, but we did have a valid reason for the initial invasion. Had we left once Al Qaeda and Bin Laden were out things might look different now. Neither the Taliban nor anyone else in Afghanistan had much of anything to do with the 9-11 attacks...

 

[OneEyedDiva]

I think the U.S. should expend more energy to fix it's own problems rather than always meddling in the business of other countries! It costs time, money and most importantly it costs lives.

 

[Tish]

The U.S. and allies need to stay as far away from this situation as possible.
There is nothing to be gained from interfering.

 

[Packerjohn]

No matter where and no matter when, the trouble with all wars is that they are always caused by politicians. Then when the fighting starts the troops are called up. Who goes to the front lines? Vladimir Putin? Joe Biden? The politicians who started the war? Right? Definitely wrong? The people who go to the front, get killed or lose a leg or arm or get brain damaged are boys (or we might call them young men and these days it could also be young gals). These troops often come from the farms, the working class or young people who watched too many John Wayne movies and want "the glory of war." There is very little glory in real war.

I read somewhere if we sent the politicians who caused the war to the front lines there would never be a war.

 

[Flaneuse]

I can see Putin’s concern in a way. Ukraine becoming part of NATO would be similar to Khrushchev's missiles in Cuba, but Khrushchev had aggressive intentions while NATO’s are defensive. Why does Russia insist on being the big bully anyway? It’s probably an ego thing because no one means any harm to them.

Putin thinks that the greatest mistake for Russia was breaking up the Soviet Union and he wants it back. As Wendy Sherman questioned: what is Putin worried about? As @Chet said, NATO is a defensive organization. However, Putin will stop at nothing to get what he wants. Although it's never been proven, there are those who believe he was behind the Moscow apartment bombings. Once a bully, always a bully.

 

[fmdog44]

Putin thinks that the greatest mistake for Russia was breaking up the Soviet Union and he wants it back. As Wendy Sherman questioned: what is Putin worried about? As @Chet said, NATO is a defensive organization. However, Putin will stop at nothing to get what he wants. Although it's never been proven, there are those who believe he was behind the Moscow apartment bombings. Once a bully, always a bully.

BULLSEYE! Ukraine is a stepping stone to the new and improved USSR.

 

[Irwin]

Well, we could flood Ukraine with weapons so if Putin invades, it will cost him dearly. We could fly drones over the border and provide Ukraine with intelligence. We could advocate for the admission of Ukraine into NATO even though it won't happen, but it would infuriate Putin. We could step up sanctions and embargoes on Russia if Russia doesn't back off.

What else? We could give Russia a bad Yelp rating.