Ancient Rome versus Greeks

[Vida May]

I want to talk about the difference between ancient Rome who gave us religion, versus the Greeks who gave us democracy. These were very different people, the Greeks, and Romans, and if we want a democracy that lifts the human potential, brings people to peaceful agreements, and seeing global warming as a moral issue requiring immediate attention, we need to understand that difference. To rid ourselves of religious and political problems, we need to understand the difference between the Romans and the Greeks. Of course, we can avoid the forbidden subjects and stay with the subjects that make us feel terrible, war, persecution, and mass murders, and we can avoid discussing religion/spirituality and politics that give us the hope of having a better reality.

Does anyone else see something a little screwy about what we can and can not talk about? Looking for a thread I want to participate in is a little depressing. More pleasing to me is to understand Rome was focused on techne and the Greeks were focused on episteme/knowledge, as Jefferson understood the pursuit of happiness. In the US our education was modeled after Athens's education, but in 1958 that education was replaced by the Roman/German model of education for techne. If we turned away from Rome and back to Athens, I think our future would look much better.

 

[Murrmurr]

It's more than a little screwy when discussions about politics devolve into arguments and insults. Regarding Senior Forums in particular, I'm pretty sure the moderator is just doing what they can to avoid that kind of crap.

 

[Vida May]

We might understand why Rome gave us Christianity and Athens gave us democracy. Rome's priority was techne.

Techne (Greek: τέχνη, tékhnē, 'craft, art'; Ancient Greek: [tékʰnɛː], Modern Greek: [ˈtexni] ( listen)) is a term in philosophy that refers to making or doing, which in turn is derived from the Proto-Indo-European root "Teks-" meaning "to weave," also "to fabricate".

Techne - Wikipedia​

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Techne

The Greeks were focused on episteme/ knowledge for the sake of knowledge.

Definition of episteme
: knowledge specifically : intellectually certain knowledge.

Episteme Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster​

The Romans were concrete thinkers and the Greeks, at least the Athenians, were conceptual thinkers. That means the Greeks could appreciate metaphysics but not the Romans. This involves being materialistic or wondering more about energy perhaps even forms of energy that are not apparent to our senses. Do you know the ancient Greeks had a concept of atoms which become matter.

The Greeks had no problem with the trinity of God but the Romans had no word/concept for a God that is like ice, water, and vapor. The Roman Christians killed each other over the argument of if Jesus was God or the Son of God, because if Jesus was God that means two Gods plus the Holy Ghost is 3 gods, and that is heresy! The Greeks were much more liberal. When Alexander announced he was a god, the folks in Athenians said, if he wants to be a god let him be a god.

 

[SeniorBen]

Why do you claim that Romans gave us religion? There was religion before the Romans. Judaism began some 500 years before the beginning of the Roman empire and there were other religions before that. Judaism was the first monotheistic religion. And the ancient Romans persecuted Christians before they adapted Christianity as the state religion.

 

[Pepper]

Also, Romans stole their gods from the Greeks.

 

[HoneyNut]

To rid ourselves of religious and political problems, we need to understand the difference between the Romans and the Greeks.

If only it were that easy (well, except I guess if my choice was study ancient history or just muddle along as we are, we might be in trouble).

 

[Vida May]

It's more than a little screwy when discussions about politics devolve into arguments and insults. Regarding Senior Forums in particular, I'm pretty sure the moderator is just doing what they can to avoid that kind of crap.

I fully appreciate their effort, but we are intelligent humans who crave intellectual pursuit and without freedom of speech we are doomed to the pettiness of which you speak. Thomas Jefferson understood the pursuit of happiness was espisteme/knowledge, not eating an ice cream or seeking other frivolous pleasures.

We need to discuss concepts, but moral also means good manners! There must be an understanding of good manners and they need to be inforced. We could develop our knowledge of virtues and mention the importance of respect when someone starts barking and biting like a dog. We could practice modesty and tact and self-disciple. While also taking advantage of our greatest aspect, the ability to learn and to reason and discover truth. We can become enlightened and resurrect another age of enlightenment. Our Statue of Liberty, Lady Justice, and the Spirit of America are the 3 aspects of Athena. Athens goddess of liberty, justice and those who defend liberty and justice. Happy 4th of July.

 

[Pepper]

Why do you claim that Romans gave us religion? There was religion before the Romans. Judaism began some 500 years before the beginning of the Roman empire and there were other religions before that. Judaism was the first monotheistic religion. And the ancient Romans persecuted Christians before they adapted Christianity as the state religion.

Some folks think only Jesus counts. A minority of the world, perhaps, but a vocal one.

 

[Vida May]

Also, Romans stole their gods from the Greeks.

Wow, that could make a most interesting discussion, comparing the Roman gods with the Greek ones. Here is a link for comparing Ares with Mars. The US was best known for promoting peace. Which form or the war god would that be? How do we understand the god of war today? Does He look like the God Jesus fighting against evil?

Unlike Ares (Greek name for god of war), who was viewed primarily as a destructive and destabilizing force, Mars represented military power as a way to secure peace, and was a father (pater) of the Roman people.[9]

 

[Pepper]

The stealing of the greek gods was outright, and I'm actually surprised you don't know that.

 

[Murrmurr]

I fully appreciate their effort, but we are intelligent humans who crave intellectual pursuit and without freedom of speech we are doomed to the pettiness of which you speak. Thomas Jefferson understood the pursuit of happiness was espisteme/knowledge, not eating an ice cream or seeking other frivolous pleasures.

We need to discuss concepts, but moral also means good manners! There must be an understanding of good manners and they need to be inforced. We could develop our knowledge of virtues and mention the importance of respect when someone starts barking and biting like a dog. We could practice modesty and tact and self-disciple. While also taking advantage of our greatest aspect, the ability to learn and to reason and discover truth. We can become enlightened and resurrect another age of enlightenment. Our Statue of Liberty, Lady Justice, and the Spirit of America are the 3 aspects of Athena. Athens goddess of liberty, justice and those who defend liberty and justice. Happy 4th of July.

My dad enforced good manners with one good smack across our knuckles with the handle of his butter knife. I'm talking about table manners, of course. I don't think it's at all possible to enforce good manners when adults discuss politics and religion on a message board.

Ergo....

 

[Pepper]

https://www2.classics.upenn.edu/myth/php/homer/index.php?page=gods
i.e. zeus/jupiter

 

[Pepper]

My dad enforced good manners with one good smack across our knuckles with the handle of his butter knife. I'm talking about table manners, of course. I don't think it's at all possible to enforce good manners when adults discuss politics and religion on a message board.

Ergo....

Ergo. Therefore. Your new name is 'fancypants.'

 

[Pepper]

Cogito ergo sum
for (((Frank)))

 

[SeniorBen]

There could probably be a discussion of Greeks vs. Romans: Who contributed more to modern society? Kind of a point/counterpoint discussion.

 

[Vida May]

If only it were that easy (well, except I guess if my choice was study ancient history or just muddle along as we are, we might be in trouble).

Many of the wealthiest and best-educated men of the colonies risked everything to throw off the king of England. Then Thomas Jefferson devoted his life to universal education. For him, education was essential to a strong Republic, not the kind of military strength we have today, and Rome had, but a moral and intellectual strength. Education for that is what made America great and only when our democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended.

 

[Murrmurr]

Cogito ergo sum
for (((Frank)))

And not just sumtimes, but sempre always.

 

[ohioboy]

On TJ's obolisk grave marker, one mention is he was the Father of the University of Virginia.

 

[Vida May]

There could probably be a discussion of Greeks vs. Romans: Who contributed more to modern society? Kind of a point/counterpoint discussion.

Okay, I don't think we can get much lower than that. Why would you reduce a discussion of our human potential to bar room mentality? Why?

 

[Murrmurr]

Okay, I don't think we can get much lower than that. Why would you reduce a discussion of our human potential to bar room mentality? Why?

A few shots? That was always my excuse.

 

[Pepper]

SNL is the best in Satire, a Latin word meaning to ridicule modern pretensions.

 

[Vida May]

My dad enforced good manners with one good smack across our knuckles with the handle of his butter knife. I'm talking about table manners, of course. I don't think it's at all possible to enforce good manners when adults discuss politics and religion on a message board.

Ergo....

For sure my fear is that the lowest and most disgusting post will be the most popular. However, if I give up hope that we can do better then I will have no reason to get up in the morning. For sure if we believe we can do better, we will not do better. That is sad.

 

[Murrmurr]

For sure my fear is that the lowest and most disgusting post will be the most popular. However, if I give up hope that we can do better then I will have no reason to get up in the morning. For sure if we believe we can do better, we will not do better. That is sad.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, Vida ....other people's behavior, I mean. It's not your problem. Et vivere, reservate, right?

 

[Vida May]

https://www2.classics.upenn.edu/myth/php/homer/index.php?page=gods
i.e. zeus/jupiter

Your link defines both Zeus and Jupiter like this.

"King of gods and men
·Father of younger Olympians"

I do not think that defines Zeus. As I understand things, the Greeks had no idea why a god made humans. However, Prometheus was associated with fire and the creation of mortals. He did feel sorry for human males and against the will of Zeus gave man the knowledge of fire. Zeus feared with the technology of fire, man would learn other technologies, and someday man would rival the gods and turn their backs on them.

Zeus punished Prometheus and had the first woman made, which he gave to the first man with a wedding gift. That wedding gift was a jar or box of miseries. The first man and woman were warned not to open it but she was curious and when left alone she opened it. It was Zues hope that the miseries slow down man's progress. Last to leave the box was hope.

I think the story of Pandora and the box is a version of the story of Adam and Eve. It is marvelous we have come from being helpless victims to such well-informed and capable creatures, but right now we are technologically smart but not wise. That validates Zeus's fear and is a better explanation of our suffering than being cursed by God because a woman ate the wrong fruit of knowledge of good and evil. A concern that leaves many Christians afraid of gaining knowledge because it might be the work of Satan.

Episteme requires that we check our knowledge by debating until we have a consensus on the best reasoning, the same as the gods had to do, argue until they had a consensus on the best reasoning. The whole world since the beginning of mankind has known making the wrong decision can be deadly. Now we have that all screwed up, with the notion of a god who rewards and pushes us depending on how well we please him, instead of realizing we caused global warming and there is no God who can make that come out good. The Greeks debated the power of the gods and concluded they have to follow the rules of the universe the same as we do. Science is essential to the morality of democracy. Being afraid of science because it could be the work of Satan is very problematic.

 

[Tish]

Also, Romans stole their gods from the Greeks.

And integrated Pagan holidays into Christianity.