GFCI question

[JaniceM]

Hopefully there's someone here who's familiar with this so I don't need to go into a lot of detail.

A previous landlord had a device similar to this picture. He used it a few times to make sure outlets were safe and in good working condition.

I've never heard of outlets referred to as 'receptacles,' but an individual said this:
receptacles need to be GFCI protected and it is required that the inspector test those receptacles to verify they are in proper working order.

Considering a landlord used a device like this to make sure the outlets were ok, is there a reason anyone would need to use an entirely different method? (will provide details if necessary).

 

[Alligatorob]

Not an electrician, but that is pretty close to what I use in my own house and the local building inspector here uses.

I believe you only need GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter) protection in places where you might have a wet floor, like the kitchen and bathrooms. Last time I did some construction, about 5 years ago the building inspector also required them anywhere we had a bare concrete floor, garage and basement.

Maybe we have a real electrician who can chime in here.

 

[John cycling]

Considering a landlord used a device like this to make sure the outlets were ok, is there a reason anyone would need to use an entirely different method? (will provide details if necessary).

I use one similar to that for all outlets and it's fine.
There's one GFCI outlet in the house that handles both bathrooms plus one in the kitchen.
If there's a GFCI breaker in the panel for a circuit, then the outlets don't need to and should not duplicate the GFCI function.

City codes might conflict with the National Electric Code (NEC), for example requiring GFCI outlets and not recognizing that GFCI breakers are better (although perhaps less convenient). Unfortunately some building inspectors tend to make their own rules, requiring things that aren't in the codes.

A few days ago there were 4 inches of rain here in one day, resulting in the bathroom's GFCI outlet and the outside breaker (not GFCI) for that circuit both tripping, likely due to moisture in the air. Today I reset the breaker in the panel outside, came back in, reset the GFCI outlet and all is well. Thank goodness, I won't need to replace either of them.

 

[JustDave]

What Alligatorob said, but I would add that electrical codes about GFCI may vary from state to state. I think that gizmo pictured tells you everything you need to know, well OK, not everything, but whether things are grounded properly.

Another way? Well, if you want to know if your GFCI circuits are working properly, each special GFCI receptacle has test button and a reset button. That may also tell you all you need to know. If the circuit is wired properly, CFCI receptacle should also protect all other ordinary receptacles on the same circuit, I think.

 

[Lethe200]

Building codes vary by state, county, and city. Where I live, there is quite a list of appliances/situations where a GFCI outlet is required. I'm all for safety, and resetting a tripped outlet is easy - just press the button.

 

[JaniceM]

Plz bear with me.. I'm trying to figure out how to explain the situation..

 

[JaniceM]

What Alligatorob said, but I would add that electrical codes about GFCI may vary from state to state. I think that gizmo pictured tells you everything you need to know, well OK, not everything, but whether things are grounded properly.

Another way? Well, if you want to know if your GFCI circuits are working properly, each special GFCI receptacle has test button and a reset button. That may also tell you all you need to know. If the circuit is wired properly, CFCI receptacle should also protect all other ordinary receptacles on the same circuit, I think.

OK, I'll try to explain it as you commented: is there any way of testing the circuits/receptacles(outlets) without using this or any other device in the outlets?

 

[JustDave]

I've wired three houses and passed the electrical inspections, although I don't know a lot about electricity. Wiring is not the same thing as understanding electricity. I tested my outlets with a cheap two pronged circuit tester. If the light on the tester came on full strength I called it good. And while that worked, that cheap tester was not capable of anything more than telling me whether a circuit worked or not. More expensive devices, which I don't even know how to use, will provide more information, which I don't even know why I would need.

If there is an electrical inspector reading this, he would/might shudder.... or not. All I can say is that I've built and wired three houses in my life starting 45 years ago, and none of them have burned down, but I also leaned heavily on the guy that ran the local electric and plumbing supply when I wasn't sure about something. I believe he had as much or even more knowledge than the local electricians.

 

[JustDave]

Are you wiring a house? I should comment that there is more than testing outlets involved. This is explained in the local electrical codes, which is usually a small pamphlet, which must be followed closely. It's not the most exciting read, but it is very explicit and comprehensive. It also makes sense.

 

[win231]

OK, I'll try to explain it as you commented: is there any way of testing the circuits/receptacles(outlets) without using this or any other device in the outlets?

I don't know much about electricity, but if I wanted to test an outlet, I'd plug something into it.

 

[Alligatorob]

You can as @win231 says plug something into it. What that won't do is tell you if it is properly grounded or GFI protected, both safety issues. However many houses were built without either in the past, and a lot are still not updated. Very few have problems.

Where is the plug or plugs located and what do you use them for?

Those testers are not very expensive. Or difficult to operate.

 

[JaniceM]

I don't know much about electricity, but if I wanted to test an outlet, I'd plug something into it.

There ya go- common sense! Similar to what others in this thread said, but directly to the point.

The reason for my question: while landlord at previous apartment used the device, and inspectors simply opened and looked into the fuse box to make sure everything was on and in working order, new inspector took an entirely different approach: did not use any device in any outlets, but shut off all my electricity at the fuse box and walked around by the walls; I didn't see if inspector had anything in 'their' hand or not, but just walked around.

As the supervisor I complained to said this: receptacles need to be GFCI protected and it is required that the inspector test those receptacles to verify they are in proper working order, I was wondering if you guys knew if it's even possible to do that without inserting anything into the 'receptacles.'

Reason it's an issue: shutting off the electricity caused me to lose my PC. I told inspector it probably would not restart if it were turned off, and that's exactly what happened.

 

[Alligatorob]

receptacles need to be GFCI protected

Here in Utah that is only true for a home constructed or rewired after it was incorporated in the building code, not for an older home with original wiring. GFCI is only required for bathrooms, kitchens, and anywhere that is prone to getting wet or has an uncovered concrete floor. These requirements vary from place to place.

I was wondering if you guys knew if it's even possible to do that without inserting anything into the 'receptacles.'

Not that I know of, but I suppose it may be possible. However if your PC is plugged into one outlet in the receptacle testing the other should be acceptable without unplugging or shutting off the PC. A PC plug in the bedroom, living room, or office should not require GFCI. Best protection for your PC is a good surge protector.

 

[JaniceM]

Here in Utah that is only true for a home constructed or rewired after it was incorporated in the building code, not for an older home with original wiring. GFCI is only required for bathrooms, kitchens, and anywhere that is prone to getting wet or has an uncovered concrete floor. These requirements vary from place to place.

Not that I know of, but I suppose it may be possible. However if your PC is plugged into one outlet in the receptacle testing the other should be acceptable without unplugging or shutting off the PC. A PC plug in the bedroom, living room, or office should not require GFCI. Best protection for your PC is a good surge protector.

Surge protector = useless, as the individual shut off the electricity.

However, I just noticed something- if, as landlord said, a small red rectangular button on outlet cover shows it's GFCI, of the numerous outlets in that particular room only one has it.. and this inspector didn't even go anywhere near that outlet, much less check it.

 

[JustDave]

I don't know

Surge protector = useless, as the individual shut off the electricity.

However, I just noticed something- if, as landlord said, a small red rectangular button on outlet cover shows it's GFCI, of the numerous outlets in that particular room only one has it.. and this inspector didn't even go anywhere near that outlet, much less check it.

That would be correct. All of those other outlets in the room (assuming they are on the same circuit, which they should be, but are not always), are protected by that one GFI outlet. If you create a short in anyone of them by sticking your finger in one, it should throw the breaker before it kills you.

I have no idea what the inspector was doing by walking around the outlets with the power off, but watching electrical inspectors I've noticed that none of them actually test circuits until the final inspection, if even then. Mostly they are looking at safety issues: How many wires going into a box, how many wires passing through a 1 inch hole, or anything that would create a build up of heat or a problem with access. Is there a dedicated circuit for the refrigerator? Are there the required number of outlets per foot of wall space? That sort of thing. An yes, they all open up the breaker panel, and study it for awhile. I think this gives them an idea of whether the person that did the wiring knew what they were doing. Looking in the panel is usually the first thing they do.

 

[Jean-Paul]

Bonjour as EE since '68 a few points to clarify, as several issues seem mixed up here.

1/ Electrical inspectors are usually visiting in new construction or renovation, after work is finished to sign off for permits. Most inspections I have done just look for the correct GFIs, # outlets, position.

2/ Only a single GFI is needed per circuit, as the first outlet in a line. All other outlets are normal non-GFI but are protected by the first GFI.

3/ All GFI sense a flow of current from H, N to ground (earth) over a safe limit, usually the cause is wet or failed insulation in an appliance. Thus GFi is used in outdoor areas, baths, toilets, kitchen but not elsewhere.

4/ All GFI sockets have built in test : Red and black buttons for check and reset.

5/ All computers should be periodically rebooted. Turning off when unused saves electric, wear and tear, Leaving them on 24/7 is only for servers and critical applications, not for normal home use.

6/ A computer should never be on a GFI circuit to avoid interruptions. Use a UPS to avoid unplanned shutdown eg due to power line hits or outages.

7/ A sudden unplanned shutdown of a computer should not cause any issues if backups and system setting are configured.

For your computer/IT issues consult someone who has great experience and that you trust, a relutive, or neighbor...

For electrical issues hire a licensed electrician.

Just the rambling of an old retired EE
I wish to all to have an ABSOULTELY FANTASTIC DAY!
Jon

 

[Kaila]

There ya go- common sense! Similar to what others in this thread said, but directly to the point.

The reason for my question: while landlord at previous apartment used the device, and inspectors simply opened and looked into the fuse box to make sure everything was on and in working order, new inspector took an entirely different approach: did not use any device in any outlets, but shut off all my electricity at the fuse box and walked around by the walls; I didn't see if inspector had anything in 'their' hand or not, but just walked around.

As the supervisor I complained to said this: receptacles need to be GFCI protected and it is required that the inspector test those receptacles to verify they are in proper working order, I was wondering if you guys knew if it's even possible to do that without inserting anything into the 'receptacles.'

Reason it's an issue: shutting off the electricity caused me to lose my PC. I told inspector it probably would not restart if it were turned off, and that's exactly what happened.

Oh gosh, Janice. That's a difficult situation.

 

[Kaila]

Adding that there is a lot of interesting and informative posting, on this thread. Thanks to all, for those tips and ideas.

 

[JaniceM]

Bonjour as EE since '68 a few points to clarify, as several issues seem mixed up here.

1/ Electrical inspectors are usually visiting in new construction or renovation, after work is finished to sign off for permits. Most inspections I have done just look for the correct GFIs, # outlets, position.

2/ Only a single GFI is needed per circuit, as the first outlet in a line. All other outlets are normal non-GFI but are protected by the first GFI.

3/ All GFI sense a flow of current from H, N to ground (earth) over a safe limit, usually the cause is wet or failed insulation in an appliance. Thus GFi is used in outdoor areas, baths, toilets, kitchen but not elsewhere.

4/ All GFI sockets have built in test : Red and black buttons for check and reset.

5/ All computers should be periodically rebooted. Turning off when unused saves electric, wear and tear, Leaving them on 24/7 is only for servers and critical applications, not for normal home use.

6/ A computer should never be on a GFI circuit to avoid interruptions. Use a UPS to avoid unplanned shutdown eg due to power line hits or outages.

7/ A sudden unplanned shutdown of a computer should not cause any issues if backups and system setting are configured.

For your computer/IT issues consult someone who has great experience and that you trust, a relutive, or neighbor...

For electrical issues hire a licensed electrician.

Just the rambling of an old retired EE

Jon

It'll take awhile before I can try to grasp the tech terms, but- and I don't know how widespread this is- in apartment complexes, city inspectors check the apartments annually.
The concern is recent inspector shut off the electricity, which no others ever did- and never used any devices in outlets, nor click the red button like landlord did.

Was there any legitimate purpose in shutting off the electricity?

 

[Chet]

This is from memory so it may not be exact. When the outlet is drawing current, the amount of current in one wire is the same as the current in the other wire and all is normal. The GFCI does the job of comparing. If they are equal, there is no current going where it shouldn't. If the currents are not equal on both sides, it's going where it shouldn't like your body, so the GFCI saves your butt.

 

[JaniceM]

This is from memory so it may not be exact. When the outlet is drawing current, the amount of current in one wire is the same as the current in the other wire and all is normal. The GFCI does the job of comparing. If they are equal, there is no current going where it shouldn't. If the currents are not equal on both sides, it's going where it shouldn't like your body, so the GFCI saves your butt.

So is what you're saying that all it takes to check safety issues is to use a device like that IN a GFCI outlet- and that shutting off electricity, and NOT using any device in outlet, is NOT the way to do it?

Reason this is important is I need to know I have all the facts straight.

 

[Murrmurr]

Hopefully there's someone here who's familiar with this so I don't need to go into a lot of detail.

A previous landlord had a device similar to this picture. He used it a few times to make sure outlets were safe and in good working condition.

I've never heard of outlets referred to as 'receptacles,' but an individual said this:
receptacles need to be GFCI protected and it is required that the inspector test those receptacles to verify they are in proper working order.

Considering a landlord used a device like this to make sure the outlets were ok, is there a reason anyone would need to use an entirely different method? (will provide details if necessary).

A different method would be used for issues other than safety and out-put.

In other words, if the technician is using a different method, or says s/he needs to try something else, then s/he might suspect another problem, such as internal wiring or incorrect hardware.

 

[JaniceM]

A different method would be used for issues other than safety and out-put.

In other words, if the technician is using a different method, or says s/he needs to try something else, then s/he might suspect another problem, such as internal wiring or incorrect hardware.

Yeah but, this individual didn't DO anything.. just shut off the electricity and walked around.. what could that possibly accomplish?

 

[Murrmurr]

Yeah but, this individual didn't DO anything.. just shut off the electricity and walked around.. what could that possibly accomplish?

Walked around inside? That would accomplish nothing. Well, s/he might have seen an obvious burn-out, but nothing other than that. Paid for doin' nuthin. Awesome....not.

 

[JaniceM]

Walked around inside? That would accomplish nothing. Well, s/he might have seen an obvious burn-out, but nothing other than that. Paid for doin' nuthin. Awesome....not.

Fuse box is in apartment. Shut off electricity from inside fuse box. Walked around the room. That was it. So, pointless and out-of-line is your take on this?

I know nothing whatsoever about electrical issues, but that was my first reaction, too.