What is meant by those stating they are atheists, (an objective question to discuss whether this may means different things?)?

grahamg said:
Everyone will have heard someone declare themselves to be atheists, (or may have done so themselves).

This thread is not intended to challenge anyone's beliefs other than to try to explore what is meant by those stating, "I am an atheist"?

At its most simple there can be little doubt anyone saying this has to mean they do not believe there is such a thing as a god, (or anything like this as put forward by the various religions).

However, does it at the same time mean all "religious thought" is rejected, (such as "honour thy mother and thy father etc." or "Do unto others as you would be done unto")?

I would guess it does not have to mean the rejection of all the thought (or ideas) put forward by religious organisations.

Can I just make one further comment as I attempt to kick off this discussion, and it is whether "attacking religion" is a motivating factor, to those stating they are atheists?

As stated already this thread is not intended to be an attempt to stir up anyone to attack any forum member's views, so if it can proceed along those lines I would be delighted. :)
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I wanted to comment on your question if "attacking religion" is a motivating factor to those stating they are atheist. Although I myself am not atheist I have a lot of friends who are. Their stance in stating they are atheist is to be heard in a society that often pushes for everyone to conform and think the same way. Just because you don't believe in a God doesn't mean you aren't a good person with morals. Often "religious" people shame others who don't believe as they do and say very unloving things like telling them their demise for not believing is that they are going to hell etc. That is not to say that some atheists might attack religion when arguing for or against believing in God. Christopher Hitchens (British American author and journalist) wrote a book titled God is Not Great in which he sites all the historically destructive atrocities done in the name of religion.
 
grahamg said:
At its most simple there can be little doubt anyone saying this has to mean they do not believe there is such a thing as a god, (or anything like this as put forward by the various religions).
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Okay so far.

grahamg said:
However, does it at the same time mean all "religious thought" is rejected, (such as "honour thy mother and thy father etc." or "Do unto others as you would be done unto")?
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Although many religions have a moral code, many "followers" don't observe the code. Meanwhile, atheists may have a moral code that they follow.

grahamg said:
I would guess it does not have to mean the rejection of all the thought (or ideas) put forward by religious organisations.
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Right.

grahamg said:
Can I just make one further comment as I attempt to kick off this discussion, and it is whether "attacking religion" is a motivating factor, to those stating they are atheists?
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I'm trying to imagine any instance of this. Maybe if someone had a bad experience with a religion? But I think with most atheists it's about belief, rather than religion.

For me personally....

I don't deny anyone else's religious belief or experience. If you say God told you not to get on that plane, I have to believe you. I've had some interesting experiences myself, but never attributed them to any god.

However, as others have posted above, I think agnosticism would be "hedging my bets." In my own life, I act "as if" there were no god. If I get struck down or go to hell, so be it. I did the best I could, in thought and action.
 
My personal beliefs lean toward agnostic....questioning the existance rather than denying outright. Again, I do not pass judgement on atheists...more of a "Question Authority" way of thinking. I did used to go to a Christian church, thinking it would help me discover a belief system. Liked it well enough, but left after the pastor told me my gay niece was going to Hell
 
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Marie5656 said:
My personal beliefs lean toward agnostic....questioning the existance rather than denying outright. Again, I do not pass judgement on atheists...more of a "Question Authority" way of thinking. I did used to go to a Christian church, thinking it would help me discover a belief system. Liked it well enough, but left after the pastor told me my gay niece was going to Hell
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If there is a God, this pastor shall go to hell. If not there is Karma.
 
Murrmurr said:
I'm an atheist but I try to always be moral. Morals aren't religious thought nor are they rules of religion, they are human standards of goodness, fairness, and ethics.
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Morals are not rules of religion you say.

Mmmm, I agree it is not true to say that any atheist cannot have morals as good/fair/ethical as anyone else's morals, though I'd have thought most people listening to a preacher and/or someone reading a lesson would feel they are being encouraged or directed to try to live a moral life.

What is "religious thought" then if not about morals, (I'd assumed the two examples I quoted in the OP were only about our morals, and what a challenge to our individual thinking is contained in the phrase "Love thy neighbour as thyself", that most of us must struggle with occasionally!).

However, this thread is about what is meant by someone stating they are an atheist, (and we are in complete agreement so far as that discussion goes).

One question though follows, and it is whether it might be a good thing if the whole world professed themselves to be atheist, or put another way, is being an atheist inherently more moral than any other position on life or mode of thinking?

Are you perhaps taking more responsibility for your own life than others because you dont expect to be informed or assisted in any way by anything other than your own actions and mental abilities?
 
DeePhase2 said:
I wanted to comment on your question if "attacking religion" is a motivating factor to those stating they are atheist. Although I myself am not atheist I have a lot of friends who are. Their stance in stating they are atheist is to be heard in a society that often pushes for everyone to conform and think the same way. Just because you don't believe in a God doesn't mean you aren't a good person with morals. Often "religious" people shame others who don't believe as they do and say very unloving things like telling them their demise for not believing is that they are going to hell etc. That is not to say that some atheists might attack religion when arguing for or against believing in God. Christopher Hitchens (British American author and journalist) wrote a book titled God is Not Great in which he sites all the historically destructive atrocities done in the name of religion.
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Thanks for your response, and the good points raised.

I'll try to stick with your comments as to what an atheist is, (though I admit I raised the issue of whether those stating they are atheists may be doing so in part in order to attack religion).

I'm interested in the fact you say an atheist might need to be heard in our society, (for the reasons you've given).

Funny isnt it, that anyone who does not believe in a god of any kind might feel a need for others to think similarly.

People try to tell me they dont care what others think about them, (rather than what I think they mean which is they dont wish and wont allow themselves to be ruled by others forcing them to think this or that, or judging them too much),
 
NorthernLight said:
grahamg said:
At its most simple there can be little doubt anyone saying this has to mean they do not believe there is such a thing as a god, (or anything like this as put forward by the various religions).
Okay so far.

Although many religions have a moral code, many "followers" don't observe the code. Meanwhile, atheists may have a moral code that they follow.
grahamg said:
I would guess it does not have to mean the rejection of all the thought (or ideas) put forward by religious organisations.

Right.
grahamg said:
Can I just make one further comment as I attempt to kick off this discussion, and it is whether "attacking religion" is a motivating factor, to those stating they are atheists?

I'm trying to imagine any instance of this. Maybe if someone had a bad experience with a religion? But I think with most atheists it's about belief, rather than religion.

For me personally....

I don't deny anyone else's religious belief or experience. If you say God told you not to get on that plane, I have to believe you. I've had some interesting experiences myself, but never attributed them to any god.

However, as others have posted above, I think agnosticism would be "hedging my bets." In my own life, I act "as if" there were no god. If I get struck down or go to hell, so be it. I did the best I could, in thought and action.
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I'll have to be careful to try to stick to my aim of making this thread about what someone means by saying they are an atheist, though I accept it leads into some discussion about what it is to be religious (or what "religious thought might be).

I've raised whether attacking religion is part of what some atheist might mean when they state their beliefs.

I suppose it depends upon what anyone thinks religion is, and as you've said what they might not like, or a bad experience they've had.

I do know of someone who stated they were atheist who had others stating on their behalf that it was cruel for them to have to go to church, and that they were being guilt tripped in the way that has been outlined above. To my knowledge it was never true in any way that the person I've knowledge of was ever guilt tripped by anyone in a church, and what was said by others about them being so was misconstrued either deliberately or by error. In this way it can be very easy to "attack religion" and anyone attending a church.
 
"I've raised whether attacking religion is part of what some atheist might mean when they state their beliefs."

IMO, atheism & religion are two different subjects...You can have one without the other.
 
Marie5656 said:
I did used to go to a Christian church, thinking it would help me discover a belief system. Liked it well enough, but left after the pastor told me my gay niece was going to Hell
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Something along those lines first triggered me to questioning religion. I was about 12 and going with my grandmother to her fire and brimstone Baptist church. A boy I knew, younger than I had drowned recently. The preacher said that because his parents had not had him baptized they had condemned the boy's soul to burn in hell for all eternity. It seemed to me that was a bit harsh, he was a good kid. The more I thought about it, and how many people in the world were not baptized the more it bothered me. Up until that point in life I just accepted what I heard from preachers and the like, they were after all people of authority. It eventually lead to my current agnostic condition.
grahamg said:
I attempt to kick off this discussion, and it is whether "attacking religion" is a motivating factor, to those stating they are atheists?
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No, I don't think so. It seems to me most people who attack religion or specific religions have had bad personal problems with some religion. I don't see religion, or any I know much about, as inherently evil. I think a lot of people use religion as an excuse or support to do evil things though. Long history of that. Looking back to the Baptist preacher I mentioned above, I think he did a bad thing, but not that the Baptist faith is bad. Even if he believed what he was saying he should have kept it to himself. I know the boy's parents got wind of it, that had to add to their pain...

There are of course many worse examples of people doing evil under the banner of some religion, I suspect those people would be doing evil no matter their religion, or lack of it.
 
grahamg said:
Morals are not rules of religion you say.

Mmmm, I agree it is not true to say that any atheist cannot have morals as good/fair/ethical as anyone else's morals, though I'd have thought most people listening to a preacher and/or someone reading a lesson would feel they are being encouraged or directed to try to live a moral life.

What is "" then if not about morals, (I'd assumed the two examples I quoted in the OP were only about our morals, and what a challenge to our individual thinking is contained in the phrase "Love thy neighbour as thyself", that most of us must struggle with occasionally!).

However, this thread is about what is meant by someone stating they are an atheist, (and we are in complete agreement so far as that discussion goes).

One question though follows, and it is whether it might be a good thing if the whole world professed themselves to be atheist, or put another way, is being an atheist inherently more moral than any other position on life or mode of thinking?

Are you perhaps taking more responsibility for your own life than others because you dont expect to be informed or assisted in any way by anything other than your own actions and mental abilities?
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I didn't say that religious thought was not about morals, but I think the phrase should have been "religious teaching" rather than religious thought.

As for morals, generally speaking, the morals that a religion bases its tenet on, and whose ministers teach to its congregation, are the words and/or example of the deity or deities it follows, or worships, or in which one invests ones faith or to whom one devotes their life.

Morals of the non-religious are human standards of behavior taught by parents to their children and/or a whole society to each other that make the society successful, and are based on what behaviors are considered right and wrong, or beneficial and destructive, or good and bad. Moral behavior, aka right, or beneficial, or good behavior, makes a society effective, prosperous, peaceful and pleasant. Immoral behavior, aka, wrong, or destructive, or bad behavior, does the opposite.

Religious thought is another thing.
 
grahamg said:
Funny isnt it, that anyone who does not believe in a god of any kind might feel a need for others to think similarly.
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Your assumption is more like a projection of a typical religious agenda. When someone says they are an atheist, it is often a reaction to an overbearing theist trying push his religion on everyone else.
 
Alligatorob said:
I was about 12 and going with my grandmother to her fire and brimstone Baptist church.
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You just described my grandmother. My first understanding of God was one night when I was left alone with her, and she started telling me about God and Hell. I had never heard of God that I can remember, and I had never heard such horror from a grownup before. I was convinced I was going to Hell, and there was nothing I could do about it.
 
Beezer said:
Atheists go through life believing the glass is half empty.

I've always believed in Karma...that the good you do today will come back to you in spades tomorrow. I'm a 'glass half full' kinda guy.
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I think karma is right and naturally happens anyway. If you go round doing bad things you do get your reward - and vice versa. Otherwise every man's beliefs are his business unless they affect others badly.
 
JustDave said:
You just described my grandmother. My first understanding of God was one night when I was left alone with her, and she started telling me about God and Hell. I had never heard of God that I can remember, and I had never heard such horror from a grownup before. I was convinced I was going to Hell, and there was nothing I could do about it.
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That is an example of bad handling of the Christian message. Often the biggest threat to Christianity is Christians! They come on too strong and it puts people off ever finding their way to God. Very sad.
Far better focus on Jesus as healer and his message as love.
 
Beezer said:
Atheists go through life believing the glass is half empty.

I've always believed in Karma...that the good you do today will come back to you in spades tomorrow. I'm a 'glass half full' kinda guy.
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Karma is a Hindu concept. The Christian equivalent is: "Whatsoever you sow, that shall you reap!" LOL
 
I would call myself a Christian agnostic. I believe in the basic tenets of my faith but not in "religion" as I see it: something man made, extra, suiting zealots and those who like cages to be put in. Don't eat this, don't drink this, don't dance, don't have too much fun, it's evil!

Paul keeps telling us that God set us free of those things but who listens. It can't possibly that simple!
 
Old Salt said:
I would call myself a Christian agnostic. I believe in the basic tenets of my faith but not in "religion" as I see it: something man made, extra, suiting zealots and those who like cages to be put in. Don't eat this, don't drink this, don't dance, don't have too much fun, it's evil!

Paul keeps telling us that God set us free of those things but who listens. It can't possibly that simple!
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I'll have to try to be careful not to stray too far here, but you mentioned Paul, and of course according to the bible he persecuted Christians before his Damascean conversion didn't he, (hence those like Richard Dworkins attacking religious thought to the extent he does could once have had one of the greatest Christian thinkers on his side before he changed his mind!).
 

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