God has a plan. An observation and a question.

PeppermintPatty said:
You are missing the point. If you are going to blame bad weather on our creator then you also have to give credit for the good weather and I think we have more good weather than bad and let’s please not dismiss the fact that mankind ( US ) have created most of this bad wealthy through our greed and selfishness.

If we are going to blame our creator for all the bad things humans so, instead of blaming ourselves , then we have to give credit to our creator for our the good things humans do.

That judging thing slides both ways.
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Actually it is not proven that we humans have created the bad weather and that is debatable. I do not buy into this climate change nonsense. Otherwise known as weather. Of course, me and all of us here, are old enough to remember when it was cooling not warming Chicken Little tried to scare us with. But dive deeper in your research but we are not actually experiencing the worst weather ever. There have been much worse tornadoes, hurricanes, earhtquakes, floods (even if, like me, one doesn't believe in the great one), etc. Not to mention the Ice Age. Here's a frame of reference for my mindset. I have never liked the story of Robinhood. I find it despicable. This robbing from the rich to give to the poor is still robbing. One's bad deeds are not cancelled out by one's good deeds. One should accept responsibliity for everything one does.
 

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Gary O' said:
His death is our salvation

He died our death
Of which is separation from The Father
Some of His last words;
“My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?”

Even though He knew the prophesies of his resurrection on the third day,
He died that 'horrible death' ours....total separation, forever

John 3:16,17
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

This love is beyond understanding
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That is twisted and sick beyond all understanding.
 
The problem in such thinking is common. IMO that uses flawed supposed inspired dogma of Christian denominations with agendas in order to personally dismiss God as though their denominations are actually being directed by God as they claim. The Old Testament you obviously read, is full of scripture supposedly inerrant, that instead cries out as not being writings inspired by a god but rather that of a long list of powerful rulers and anthropomorphic leaders that use religion to control their followers and rewrite actual history. It does not read like a thorough, complete guide for Earth monkeys to live in moral perfection over millennia in a universe all about them, nor how to reach a mythical Heaven. That noted, it is also a mistake to conversely expect that none of the Bible is reasonably accurate. Instead it reads like attempts by at least some scribes and Levites to reasonably describe and record events, while others just added to and changed earlier writings by Moses to suit their purposes.

That noted, people then wonder what are they supposed to believe? Despite pleadings of religious authorities to trust them, it is a mistake to believe scripture with black and white thinking. Instead wiser to put all scripture on a relative spectrum between the two. I personally am a Christian that doesn't have a problem with no inerrancy nor discarding the Middle Ages magic narrative of an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent all powerful entity. The Catholic church and some other denomination scholars have quietly moved away from some of such thinking over the last century while more conservative denominations have not.

Consider how ridiculously impossible it would be without resorting to illogical magical forces for some imagined powerful ancient entity to control moment by moment over centuries what millions of science ignorant humans over centuries write about them. As though an ultimate entity in a universe with billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars over billions of years has made we morally flawed warlike monkeys that just arose over a microscopic amount of recent time, the center of his universe and grand plan. Like the entity has some magical other dimensional force that controls and corrects whatever is written. And has nothing better to do in such a vast universe. What if a god with limitations simply lets men write whatever they may while pushing that responsibility onto we humans where it belongs? What if it is the responsible of humans to guide their own religions? Sooner or later, an intelligent god would expect some with skeptical minds to expose whatever as flawed interpretations and fabrications. Especially once they reached a level of science and telecommunications we now live during.
 
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Blaze Duskdreamer said:
That Ms. Atheist. And your rather poving another comment of mine in this thread about feeling smugly superior to me becasue you believe in something whose existence isn't proven and makes no logical sense. Surely, you've heard this before but (yawn) here goes: You can't prove a negative such as God doesn't exist. The burden of proof is on the one making the claim - God does exist - not the one sceptical of said claim. So ball's back in your court. Prove he does. Last I checked, and I spent 10 years as a Christian, and before I went atheist I went Jewish then agnostic, even Christians believed you have to accept God on faith. Because he can't be proven. Atheist, btw, has stuck. Judaism didn't hold up under close examination either and I did not go through with the conversion. Agnostic was four years after that of don't know, don't care refusing to think about it until one day I just said there is no God and realized that really somewhere in that four years, I had come to that conclusion. Logically.
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Ah well...I've done a lot of arguing on this forum in the last couple of days.

So you are welcome to retrieve your ball from my court as I've got more important things to think about, like how. when I am only 60 how those older than me can outdance me at line dancing today.

Have fun Ms Blaze... didn't know that was a female name. Btw is it too much to ask for shorter paragraphs?
 
Just Jeff said:
Includes how the universe was created by The Creator:
"Bible Search ... Search results for: universe
62 verses found. Showing up to 25."
https://biblescan.com/search.php?q=universe
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"Finally, there is the scriptural contention, and of the three it alone makes sense: the universe was created by an uncaused First Cause greater than itself. Time, space, and the universe have not always existed, but God has always existed, and God’s existence is the cause for the existence of all else that exists. While science demands that the universe had to have a beginning, nothing philosophically or scripturally demands that the cause of the universe had to have a beginning."

https://www.faithgateway.com/did-god-create-everything-out-of-nothing/
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If God always was and didn't have to have a creator, there's no reason to not believe the universe always was. I buy neither religion's ridiculous watchmater argument (if that's so whoever created the watch would themselves be so complex that'd they'd have to have a creator ad infitum) or science's. I don't know or care how we and this earth came into existence or if it always existed. I have the reality of it before me and that's good enough for me. I need no explanation of why. There is no why. It just is. While I'm at it, there's also no great meaning to life. i tend to agree with James Taylor's line: The secret of life is enjoying the passage of time. In other words, just chill and enjoy your life while you're here.
 
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grahamg said:
I've read what you describe in an anarchist diagram showing hierachies, (in a Marilyn Manson book I believe), but you shouldn't ignore the way religions such as Christianity were seen as a threat to begin with, and I'd argue have at times provided a check on absolute power.
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Not their own. They only checked others' power to take it. I truly see nothing noble about the Church or the sick, twisted means by which Chritianity was spread throughout the world.
 
Just Jeff said:
Naturally, or simply, we cannot learn /experientially/ the truth by studying books , nor from human teachers.

The Heavenly Creator has Revealed , as He Pleases, that He Reveals the Truth as He Pleases , to whomever He Pleases.
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Yet he condemns those he doesn't reveal himself to to eternal suffering? Man, that's effed up.
 
Gary O' said:
Bottom line, there's plenty of room for doubt
However, there's hope
Throughout The Word
Throughout living, learning, listening

This experience has changed me
It has given me joy, peace....heh, even patience (that's a bit of a miracle)

There's nothing else on this planet that has done that

I won't soon let that go
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Because you don't want to. That's just pure ego. You don't want to deal with the reality that someday you will cease to exist and given that we're all elderly here - that day looms large for us all.
 
grahamg said:
What is tricky for me is some of those children turning their backs on their fathers are just that "children" but woe betide you if you suggest what they're saying should not be taken over the word of a decent loving father, "they must be listened to and taken seriously" the law decrees, (or those administering it, "because that's in their best interests"!).

You are very aware of saying from the bible, and passages from the bible, where in the bible does it say, "the child's interests must come first", (or be paramount over everything else)?

My guess is it does not say such a thing, not least because ultimately there is no God in a system where the child becomes set above all else, (and the power of that phrase I keep quoting about children's interests coming first is said to have almost "mystical power" according to expert observers of family law).

A fellow fathers rights campaigner told me he once told the judge deliberating over his contact with his three boys, "don't play God with my children", and to an extent usurping loving fathers is playing God, deciding who can show love to their children and fulfill the role good/decent dads should be able to decide for themselves how to fulfill! :)
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No father is better than an abusive father. I realize that isn't alwaiys the case when a father has been separated but it USUALLY is.
 
Blaze Duskdreamer said:
Oh, yes there are.
Are there atheists in foxholes.

Actual Atheists that have been foxholes
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in part-
'Foundation president Anne Nicol Gaylor originally proposed an “Atheists in Foxholes" monument to replace a cross on public property in San Diego.

The Foundation’s formal bid was rejected in favor of religious bidders.

Pat Cleveland invited the Foundation to erect its own monument on land donated by the Cleveland family in rural Alabama, as part of a freethought park. Pat is president of the Alabama Freethought Association, a Foundation chapter which also hosts the national Foundation’s southern Freethought Hall and auditorium near Talladega. The monument was formally dedicated at the chapter’s annual July 4th gala in 1999."

1joecunningham.JPG
 
Della said:
Some people look at the telescope images of the Universe and are so in awe of the majesty and vastness of it all they believe there must be a creator behind it all. Other people look at the same pictures and say, I didn't see God, just billions of stars, so God must not exist. By that system cars and antelopes don't exist either.

If religion is a system of control of other people, it's not working half as well as Instagram influencers and not generating as much fear as conspiracy theories on message boards.
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As for Jesus being gay or having an affair with Mary Magdalene. Just no. He was first and foremost a devout Jew who followed The Law, he admonished people in his sermons to not only obey the commandments, but to take them a step further. to follow not only the letter of The Law but the spirit of The Law. For example he said, not only don't commit adultery, don't even lust in your heart. If he had broken commandments his enemies would have been all over it and it would have been brought up during his trial.
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So... Do you keep kosher?
 
ElCastor said:
Believe what you wish, but in my honest opinion the nature and vastness of the universe is beyond our comprehension. We may know a great deal, but not all by a long shot, so why should we presume to scorn beliefs that bring joy and understanding to so many of our friends and neighbors? That is why I am an agnostic.
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Likewise, why scorn disbelief? Frankly, I don't think belief is a choice. Either you find a thing credible or you don't or you're not sure. This may change throughout your life - has for me - but at any point in time, it's either believeable or it's not or you're I don't know what to think. All three should be respected unless they are being used to harm others.
 
spectratg said:
There certainly are a diversity of viewpoints on the thread and on many other topics on Senior Forums. Many well educated, thoughtful folks participate. What is your perspective?
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I have killed my day today wading through this entire thread and it makes me utterly happy to be here. I am immensely enjoying such a civil conversation about such a passionate topic. My belief that such a thing has become impossible in today's society is shaken and my faith that we can discuss differences in opinion on even highly controversial things is restored. I particpated briefly in this forum years ago and this makes me very, very happy that I have returned. I did because I was tired of where are all the people my age when most internet places are dominated by millennials and/or zoomers. This is most encouraging. I have a feeling I'll be wasting too much time here. I am utterly starved for deep conversation like this and quite enjoying it. Hence, I replied to far too many posts. I hope I was properly respectful to even those I disagree vehemently with. In today's world, it's all too easy to lose sight of civility. This is very, very promising that this is a good place to hang out.
 
Jamala said:
Ah well...I've done a lot of arguing on this forum in the last couple of days.

So you are welcome to retrieve your ball from my court as I've got more important things to think about, like how. when I am only 60 how those older than me can outdance me at line dancing today.

Have fun Ms Blaze... didn't know that was a female name. Btw is it too much to ask for shorter paragraphs?
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Good heavens, you are younger than my daughter!!! What are you doing in a seniors' forum? :) And as you may have seen by my non-participation I tend to stay out of useless arguments like this one.
 
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caroln said:
I just watched Schindler's List last night and it made me think about this thread. 6 million Jews brutalized, tortured and killed...God's plan?

God was nowhere near those death camps. If that was his plan for those people, I hope there's a bigger picture that I'm not seeing. Maybe it comes down to free will after all.

Here's a quote from the movie The Devil's Advocate: John Milton (the devil): "Who in their right mind, Kevin, could possibly deny that the twentieth century was mine, all of it Kevin, all of it mine?"
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Also, Hitler was Christian. I stress he does not reprpesent all Christians, not by a long shot; most are repulsed by his interpretations. Christians like to deny this but if you've ever read Mein Kampf which I have because it serves to see how an insane mind works, it will erase any doubt. His beleif was genuine. Definitely messed up and misconstrued but genuine. The Nazis had God is With Us on their belt buckles and they truly beleived it. The Catholic Church worked with Hitler but there are individual Catholics who saved Jews.

I love that movie especially the Devil's monologue but, well, no, but admittedly that's because I don't believe in the Devil. Al Pacino was the best Devil ever! Also loved him in Serpico. Great actor.
 
chic said:
Don't ultrasounds detect birth defects so the mother can chose whether or not she wants to give birth or abort? There are very few Down's Syndrome children seen anymore.
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Becasue they're murdered before they can be born!!! That is not a good or decent thing. What you say here is actually one of the arguments often used against abortion. Would you advocate killing the disabled post birth if it were not found out until baby was born? Same difference. Why create that unborn human defected to begin with? That makes no sense.
 

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