Question for the Atheist

[Knight]

. Everything that happens in your life is a direct result of the choices you make, and what you choose to believe.

What happened to God's plan ?
"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." Jeremiah 29:11 · ‎3. Romans 8:28

What happens to those that don't follow the plan?

 

[gruntlabor]

Everybody talks about religion in terms of death, and heaven. But I've always wonder where we were before being born. As an atheist, that's easy, we didn't exist. But for the religious, were we created at the moment of conception? That opens up all kinds of problems. Or were we hanging around some place ?

That brings reincarnation to mind. You were someone or something either above or beneath yourself as, for examples, a priest or a worm.

 

[VisualBrian]

Reincarnation (by definition) wants to deal with the "non-physical essence" of a living being. While I don't believe that any such essence exists, I have no issue with the concept that we move on, through eternal energy and matter, to another form or state and may eventually over time become conscious again. Simply put, imagine you decay into the earth, become plant food, grow as part of a plant to become animal food, are eaten by a cow which becomes human food, and eventually are in part absorbed back into the human race. Could you in time regain some form of consciousness? Perhaps all matter is somewhat conscious but more collective than we imagine.

 

[Naturally]

Reincarnation (by definition) wants to deal with the "non-physical essence" of a living being. While I don't believe that any such essence exists, I have no issue with the concept that we move on, through eternal energy and matter, to another form or state and may eventually over time become conscious again. Simply put, imagine you decay into the earth, become plant food, grow as part of a plant to become animal food, are eaten by a cow which becomes human food, and eventually are in part absorbed back into the human race. Could you in time regain some form of consciousness? Perhaps all matter is somewhat conscious but more collective than we imagine.

Well that explains why there's some kibble my dog shuns. Makes perfect sense. Might be a mailman in there somewhere.

 

[MarkD]

Everybody talks about religion in terms of death, and heaven. But I've always wonder where we were before being born. As an atheist, that's easy, we didn't exist. But for the religious, were we created at the moment of conception? That opens up all kinds of problems. Or were we hanging around some place ?

Not all of them. Those online Christian friends of mine are adamant that this life is the one that matters and where any new creation must happen. But even some of them will say they hope to see their loved ones after they die. I have no such hope but don't need it either. I think there is something that has given rise to God belief but it isn't any right-off-the-shelf model of any one tradition's conception. Among Christians there seem to be all levels of understanding from straightforward literal fundamentalism to more subtle forms which require nothing pinned down and insist on no creed.

Everybody talks about religion in terms of death, and heaven. But I've always wonder where we were before being born. As an atheist, that's easy, we didn't exist. But for the religious, were we created at the moment of conception? That opens up all kinds of problems. Or were we hanging around some place ?

If consciousness is ontologically primitive and part of every being then before and after perhaps we simply go back to an undifferentiated state. Human brains probably filter and amplify consciousness to levels of sentience like no other, at least potentially. But every one of "the many" borrow being from "the One", the primitive undifferentiated totality which has provided the ground of being for all else. I think of life as a loaner. I don't think we get to keep it. Still a good deal in my opinion.

 

[sailormann]

This is without a doubt one of the best threads I've read on here. Deepest gratitude to Mr. Ed for creating it. And depths of gratitude to all participating for your insight and open mindedness. What a remarkable collection of minds hovering and discovering here.

 

[papa tiger]

Some Cling to Reincarnation. Cling to their higher power. It's what they believe.
I don't draw lines in the sand. Be it as it may many choose a war path to peace.

 

[gruntlabor]

The end of birth is death. The end of death is birth. Thus it is ordained. --The Bhagavad Gita

 

[MarkD]

Reincarnation (by definition) wants to deal with the "non-physical essence" of a living being. While I don't believe that any such essence exists, I have no issue with the concept that we move on, through eternal energy and matter, to another form or state and may eventually over time become conscious again. Simply put, imagine you decay into the earth, become plant food, grow as part of a plant to become animal food, are eaten by a cow which becomes human food, and eventually are in part absorbed back into the human race. Could you in time regain some form of consciousness? Perhaps all matter is somewhat conscious but more collective than we imagine.

Perhaps. But I think we have to avoid thinking of concsiousness as our essence. I doubt there is any us minus our bodies. Consciousness is vital but so is being embodied.

 

[sailormann]

Perhaps. But I think we have to avoid thinking of concsiousness as our essence. I doubt there is any us minus our bodies. Consciousness is vital but so is being embodied.

You don't believe consciousness can exist without a physical form of some kind?

 

[gruntlabor]

Reincarnation (by definition) wants to deal with the "non-physical essence" of a living being. While I don't believe that any such essence exists, I have no issue with the concept that we move on, through eternal energy and matter, to another form or state and may eventually over time become conscious again. Simply put, imagine you decay into the earth, become plant food, grow as part of a plant to become animal food, are eaten by a cow which becomes human food, and eventually are in part absorbed back into the human race. Could you in time regain some form of consciousness? Perhaps all matter is somewhat conscious but more collective than we imagine.

It's relentless, the ongoing, ascending biological evolution combined with the de-evolution or entropy of the chemical world, the yin-yang of the universe. They give us everlasting life (or as everlasting as the universe is), but sadly we don't get to keep our consciousness/ memory/ sentience, unless of course there's another force at work.

 

[gruntlabor]

Perhaps. But I think we have to avoid thinking of concsiousness as our essence. I doubt there is any us minus our bodies. Consciousness is vital but so is being embodied.

Consciousness naturally evolved for higher intellects. As we walk along the street for example we assign that activity to our subconscious or unconscious mind so that we can reflect on the beautiful day ahead, or on yesterday's amusements. We use it so much that we actually have difficulty tying our shoes consciously. Try it, it's fun.

 

[sailormann]

It's relentless, the ongoing, ascending biological evolution combined with the de-evolution or entropy of the chemical world, the yin-yang of the universe. They give us everlasting life (or as everlasting as the universe is), but sadly we don't get to keep our consciousness/ memory/ sentience, unless of course there's another force at work.

I'm quite certain there are unseen forces at work here, "behind the scenes". We have such limited perception, seeing what we deem notable and ignoring all the rest. I propose that it is what we don't see which matters most because it is that which is the very ground of all being, the foundation of all that we do see, and the very thing mostpeople call reality.
This is not a new idea. It is at the heart of most of the world's religions and many scientific minds agree. Although, for some reason, mostpeople claim to disagree.

 

[MarkD]

You don't believe consciousness can exist without a physical form of some kind?

I don't know but suspect that consciousness as we experience it requires embodiment if only because our brains have evolved so well to channel consciousness. I think what we think of as "me", our sense of identity, is dependent on that physical aspect but there is more to us which isn't narrowly ours. But that is just the way it seems to me.

 

[David777]

This is without a doubt one of the best threads I've read on here. Deepest gratitude to Mr. Ed for creating it. And depths of gratitude to all participating for your insight and open mindedness. What a remarkable collection of minds hovering and discovering here.

After reading how most have responded, I can understand how some might have that opinion.

Although it won't be popular to say so, on the other hand, this science oriented person thinks beyond yes/no's to the OP's questions, most expanded responses and ideas herein are nonsense philosophical and non-science mumbo jumbo without much value. I had not responded to this point because to refute some of the ideas presented would be futile and only resulted in annoying members.

 

[gruntlabor]

After reading how most have responded, I can understand how some might have that opinion.

Although it won't be popular to say so, on the other hand, this science oriented person thinks beyond yes/no's to the OP's questions, most expanded responses and ideas herein are nonsense philosophical and non-science mumbo jumbo without much value. I had not responded to this point because to refute some of the ideas presented would be futile and only resulted in annoying members.

Science is nice, we have lobotomies, covid, mandatory organ harvesting, central government, human experimentation, population control, the pharmaceutical industry. And, science has given us the world's funniest thing: the electric stimulation rod.

 

[sailormann]

After reading how most have responded, I can understand how some might have that opinion.

Although it won't be popular to say so, on the other hand, this science oriented person thinks beyond yes/no's to the OP's questions, most expanded responses and ideas herein are nonsense philosophical and non-science mumbo jumbo without much value. I had not responded to this point because to refute some of the ideas presented would be futile and only resulted in annoying members.

What a roundabout retort. It was kind of you to exercise such restraint for the benefit of others in the group.
You make a strong assertion of your belief that science is the only thing of real value in the pursuit of knowledge, understanding, and truth, and that all else is BS.
You choose whatever you want to believe and that is how it should be. It's up to you. But I can't pretend that it doesn't matter one way or the other what you believe, because your beliefs shape your reality. What you see is what you get. Keep your mind open and look closely. You might find that you don't know as much as you think you do. After all, life's for learning. Either you are busy being born or you are busy dying.

 

[Naturally]

I feel blessed. Others may at times feel grateful but I feel blessed

 

[caramel]

In response to @Murrmurr , here's how the conversation went.

That's neuroscience, and I am confident it will at least contribute to explaining consciousness (it is a goal). Maybe one day it will be possible to tailor people's consciousness to make them kinder, more confident, maybe even smarter - able to utilize or maximize all the functions of our brains.

There's neuroscience of religion or neurotheology. That's been around for a long time.

Neuroscience of religion - Wikipedia

There might be, but I was talking about neuroscience, the scientific study of the nervous system.

So was I.

Whether or not a divine power truly does exist might be a matter of opinion, but the neurophysiological effects of religious belief are scientific facts that can be accurately measured.The neuroscience of religious and spiritual experience
The neuroscience of religious and spiritual experience

There are measurable neurophysiological effects on a child's brain when someone reads them a bedtime story, while someone is shown a series of images, while a person prays, listens to music, etc.

I don't get the point you're trying to make, or what the debate is here.

In a debate about the existence of God, neuroscience, although a science, doesn't go very far. The best it can say is whether someone believes there's a God, not whether one exists or not. Looking to find answers for the existence of God in neuroscience doesn't lead to any answers. I was just pointing out that your comment on neuroscience in a thread about God's existence only has relevance to the extent that neuroscience can show what happens in the brain when people believe in God, but doesn't have much relevance about whether God exists or not.

(Neuro)science doesn't prove or disprove the existence of God. It can't because the brain doesn't distinguish between beliefs and experiences.

 

[sailormann]

Nstursl

I feel blessed. Others may at times feel grateful but I feel blessed

 

[sailormann]

I feel blessed. Others may at times feel grateful but I feel blessed

Naturally, I feel grateful that I am so blessed.

 

[Gary O']

Question for the Atheist​

I wasn't going to post because I'm not an atheist
but
This thread, like most on this subject, has wandered
so
Anybody seriously looking for answers can find some here;




What's to lose?

 

[Mr. Ed]

What happened to God's plan ?
"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." Jeremiah 29:11 · ‎3. Romans 8:28

What happens to those that don't follow the plan?

Who is to say what plans you state as god’s plan? Firstly describe what you mean by god? Is it wrong that my understanding does not aliign with your interpretation of god? I assume your god’s plans are different than mine? Is it because I view god differently than or because I am not you?

 

[Mr. Ed]

It's a good reminder that we're all connected....to the universe, our planet, the animals, our neighbors. And who knows, maybe someday, if we're reminded often enough, it'll make us want to be kinder.

Why wouldn’t we be connected to each other and the universe ? Undestanding there is no division in life form demonstrates the wholeness of kinship. humans think themself superior because they kill for reasons other than survival.
I am amazed by the ongoing dtysfunctioning behaviors of humanity. Using the concept of god to blame the chaos in life of to praising god in good times and bad. If there is a semblance god would know any more or less of “it” than you do today?
Lables causes conflicts. Christian or Athiest are human species before their differences make them individuals.

 

[Mr. Ed]

Just an observation, a few atheists but mostly sinners have responded to this thread

Your observation, a few atheist, but mostly sinners have responded to this thread. How do you classify yourself?