Many Women Will Never See Justice in This Lifetime

[dilettante]

But what say you, overall, about the predicament of women in American society

So what is this "predicament" that for some reason only American women must cope with due to some particular societal flaws?

I don't see any way to read this as anything but misandry. Or have I missed some obvious implication that bigfoot, aliens, or climate change are to blame?

 

[Della]

It's funny - in my region, women, moms, are far more likely to be cast as gold diggers (because the salary disparities between men and women’s work is so cavernous), and men are seen as the victims.

Go ahead - list famous, wealthy men society has cast as victims.
My #1 choice is always O.J. Simpson because he played that victim role so expertly for so many years.

Then go ahead and list single moms. You may not be able to because they are so busy working and doing child care they don’t have time to get their names in the news.

Also remember that just because something is a stereotype, repeated over and over again in the media, that does not make it a fact. When someone repeats a LIE over and over again that just means they might be good at selling bull-pucky. It still doesn’t make it a fact.

E.G. Climate change deniers repeated lies for 20 years. They are just lying. Lying for 20 years and will lie to their graves.

I can't figure out what you're talking about. What does O.J. Simson have to do with anything I said?

@DebraMae said that she thought the majority of unwed mothers were victims. I thought she was implying that they were all raped. I pointed out that only 5% of those births are believed to be the result of rape and I agree with @dilettante that that figure seems high.

I didn't call anyone a gold digger. I don't know what you think I've lied about.

 

[Timewise 60+]

Stupid Pledge of Allegiance we repeated every day in school. There was no dsclaimer that came along with it. That would be funny - teacher reads a warning every morning before the kids solemnly say the pledge.

The teacher says, “Disclaimer: the words in this pledge may or may not apply to all circumstances in This American Life depending on many factors including your gender, age, income, societal caste group, racial group, family name, religious identification, your physical strength, and whether or not you or your family can afford high quality legal counsel. This pledge expresses ideals only, not reality, and should by no means be interpreted as reflecting reality."

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

LOL. How’s that? Tell those kids the truth, darn it. Don’t let them be lied to like we were.

Love it, or Leave it!

 

[Pepper]

Some folks just can't get past their own feelings of victimhood.

 

[VaughanJB]

Open discussion. Your thoughts?

I know it’s for certain in my own life, but I will not go into detail here. But what say you, overall, about the predicament of women in American society, especially single moms. Life going peachy and without prejudice for them as a group? I sure don’t see that.

Devil's advocate time.

What's wrong with the larger society shunning some things? Single mothers are an example - statistically it's not good for the child. The Heritage Foundation states: "a 10 percent increase in the percentage of children living in single-parent homes leads typically to a 17 percent increase in juvenile crime." And don't get me started on growing up in poverty. Shouldn't society keep a stance where being a single parent isn't treated equally with families that are more traditional?

If we flatten everything out, with no good or bad decisions, don't we end up with no standards whatsoever? If a single mothered family is thought of as the same as a traditional marriage with children, aren't we effectively promoting the idea of being a single mother with the inevitable outcomes? How is that good for society?

 

[VintageBetter]

I can't figure out what you're talking about. What does O.J. Simson have to do with anything I said?

@DebraMae said that she thought the majority of unwed mothers were victims. I thought she was implying that they were all raped. I pointed out that only 5% of those births are believed to be the result of rape and I agree with @dilettante that that figure seems high.

I didn't call anyone a gold digger. I don't know what you think I've lied about.

You stated this to Debra, right?

IMHO we need to quit casting men as villains. Example being claiming that the majority of unwed mothers are "victims."
According to the CDC only 5% of pregnancies are the result of rape.

Are you then saying the ONLY women who are true victims in American society are those who are raped, whether it be marital rape or from a stranger?

Personally, I don’t have to see anyone as a victim to feel a sense of advocacy toward them. If they are going through some tough crap, I see no reason not to advocate for them.

As for men - while we should not cast them all as villains, we should certainly not cast them all as Saints or Heroes either!

As for not understanding what you are saying, I sure don’t understand how the CDC stat on rape entered the discussion (as if ALL rapes are reported-HA!)

So, what is your bar of heinous actions? "If he didn’t rape you, you’re not a victim lady?"

Is that your argument? Is that what you’re trying to say? That, like dogs, all men go to heaven?

 

[Pepper]

Hysterical absurdities.

 

[Pepper]

@VaughanJB
Quoting the Heritage Foundation as your source? Think again. They kind of have axes to grind. Oh, but you were the Devil's Advocate. Okay then.

 

[Timewise 60+]

Good one, Pepper...!

 

[VintageBetter]

Your point Della, defending men in general, makes my point as to why I posted this topic.

So many women are either raising children alone as they also work or caring for other relatives (as they also work) and in our society, we don’t even see the unbalance and injustice of that.

That is my point. Many women will never see justice in this lifetime for all the work they did. They will never get equal pay and they will also face an uphill climb in getting men (and men’s advocates, which are so often other women feeling pity for these pity-inspiring men) to hear their very valid complaints.

Seriously, in YOUR group of male friends/acquaintances /brothers/cousins, how many of them could handle the stress of working FT and raising two or three kids full time too, a task so many women do alone every day?

In my current circle of male friends or aquaintances, which is four, only one of them could handle that. The one who could handle it would control those children by yelling at them, shooting them looks that kill, and otherwise intimidating them to obey him. He would use emotional and verbal abuse to get everyone in line. So, he would not do it WELL, but he would do it with Authoritarian efficiency and coercion. He would be like an Overseer with a whip. But he would also probably outsource the work as much as possible. Like, they are with a sitter from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. every day.

The other three men I know could not deal with it. They would have to hire a FT nanny and would give every task over to her/him. These are all Boomer men, BTW.

So, what about you? How many Fathers of the Year do you have in your circle of friends, acquaintances and family?

 

[VaughanJB]

@VaughanJB
Quoting the Heritage Foundation as your source? Think again. They kind of have axes to grind. Oh, but you were the Devil's Advocate. Okay then.

They were the first to come up in Google when I ran a search. The stats on increase in crime related to single parent families can be found in many many places, and are supported by several studies. I'd imagine poverty has a lot to do with it.

 

[VaughanJB]

IMHO we need to quit casting men as villains. Example being claiming that the majority of unwed mothers are "victims."
According to the CDC only 5% of pregnancies are the result of rape.

True. Single parent mothers are having to take responsibility for bad choices. I know that sounds harsh, and I know some men fail to step up. However, biologically, the woman is always the one paying a higher price. I wish they all made better decisions about when to have a child, and whom to have a child with. I'm sure it's a hard life, but in the end it's a life chosen.

 

[dilettante]

According to the CDC only 5% of pregnancies are the result of rape.

Wrong, as I already pointed out above.

The real fact is that only 5% of US rapes lead to pregnancies. This is a far, far smaller absolute number.

There is no way in hell that 1 in 20 kids are children of rape. The error is so huge I can't see how anyone could miss it.

 

[Murrmurr]

Open discussion. Your thoughts?

I know it’s for certain in my own life, but I will not go into detail here. But what say you, overall, about the predicament of women in American society, especially single moms. Life going peachy and without prejudice for them as a group? I sure don’t see that.

I might have missed it, but what type of justice would you like to see, Vin? If you could decide, would justice be punishment, retribution, or something else? What, exactly, would it be, how would it be carried out, and who would pay the piper?

 

[Pepper]

I thought of you in this thread @Murrmurr as you were an exceptional single dad. Not that kudos are deserved more to you as being male, but recognition surely is. Bully for you!

 

[Murrmurr]

I thought of you in this thread @Murrmurr as you were an exceptional single dad. Not that kudos are deserved more to you as being male, but recognition surely is. Bully for you!

Took me a while to add anything because I remember how horribly single fathers were discriminated against back in the 70s and clear up until this millennia, so this topic really chaps my hide.

That discrimination made it hard for a man to get a job and keep a job, all while trying to keep his kids. Back then a court would take kids away from their father in a heartbeat, but give their mother 2nd, 3rd, and 4th chances, AND offer her seemingly endless support services. Single dad's had no "safety nets", they were entirely on their own.

It was brutal.

 

[DebraMae]

IMHO we need to quit casting men as villains. Example being claiming that the majority of unwed mothers are "victims."
According to the CDC only 5% of pregnancies are the result of rape.

I did not say they were raped. There are other ways women are victimized.

 

[DebraMae]

We live such unnatural lives now. People used to live in family groups and so no-one was isolated. If a woman was badly treated, her male relatives would sort things out.

I prefer to sort my own things out.

 

[Della]

I did not say they were raped. There are other ways women are victimized.

Of course, many ways for someone to be victimized, but because we were talking about unwed or single mothers and you said you thought they were victims -- I thought you were talking about the reason they were unwed mothers. That is, I thought you were saying that they got pregnant and became unmarried mothers because they were victims of something that could cause pregnancy.

 

[DebraMae]

Of course, many ways for someone to be victimized, but because we were talking about unwed or single mothers and you said you thought they were victims -- I thought you were talking about the reason they were unwed mothers. That is, I thought you were saying that they got pregnant and became unmarried mothers because they were victims of something that could cause pregnancy.

I see. No, I actually was talking about things like society's expectations and lack of oportunity for women 50 or so years ago. Things are better now, but still not good.

 

[hollydolly]

I thought of you in this thread @Murrmurr as you were an exceptional single dad. Not that kudos are deserved more to you as being male, but recognition surely is. Bully for you!

excuse me ..not to take away from Frank... but I was a single mother after my husband left when mine was just 8 years old.. where's the kudos for m.e..or for @VintageBetter ...or the several other women here... who raised their children alone ?

It always makes me laugh when men get praised artificially for doing the same job women get no praise for...

 

[hollydolly]

Took me a while to add anything because I remember how horribly single fathers were discriminated against back in the 70s and clear up until this millennia, so this topic really chaps my hide.

That discrimination made it hard for a man to get a job and keep a job, all while trying to keep his kids. Back then a court would take kids away from their father in a heartbeat, but give their mother 2nd, 3rd, and 4th chances, AND offer her seemingly endless support services. Single dad's had no "safety nets", they were entirely on their own.

It was brutal.

Women who were single .. regardless of how they became single, whether by choice or design were looked on as no better than they ought to be......and very hard to get a job that fit around school hours. No working from home in those days...lots of women had to take low paying jobs like cleaning just because as single mothers they were looked down upon by employers...

 

[dadjunk]

My daughters are 56 and 51 and our message to them was that you must always be in a position to be OK on your own. Get educated and find rewarding employment prior to romance. Always have a plan B. If parents aren't teaching that to their daughters they are failing them. I personally will never stop watching out for my daughters and granddaughters although I do that from a non-interfering distance.

 

[Pepper]

excuse me ..not to take away from Frank... but I was a single mother after my husband left when mine was just 8 years old.. where's the kudos for m.e..or for @VintageBetter ...or the several other women here... who raised their children alone ?

It always makes me laugh when men get praised artificially for doing the same job women get no praise for...

That's why I said to Frank: "Not that kudos are deserved more to you as being male"
Of course you & VB are to be praised, also widows, widowers. Anyone who raises children WELL are to be commended!

 

[Murrmurr]

Women who were single .. regardless of how they became single, whether by choice or design were looked on as no better than they ought to be......and very hard to get a job that fit around school hours. No working from home in those days...lots of women had to take low paying jobs like cleaning just because as single mothers they were looked down upon by employers...

Not much different for single fathers.

Single fathers had to deal with suspicion. Teachers, courts, pastors, neighbors...seemed like everyone wondered "What's that guy want with those little kids? What's he gonna to do to them? Why does he want them so badly?" (because they're my children, that's why!)

I also had to take the kind of jobs that had shifts, usually manual labor. And I had to choose between being there to get my kids off to school, or being there when they got home. When single mothers were getting help paying for child care, single fathers weren't ...unless they earned less than $100 a month. $100 freakin dollars a month. Moms could earn over twice that and still get 1/2 or more of their day care paid for. No reason, that's just how it was...or should I say "unjust"?

Soon as my oldest turned 9, I worked nights so I could be home all day. I risked losing my kids over that. Leaving 3 kids under 10 home alone all night was illegal in most states (still is in many). Fortunately, the kids were on board with it because the job paid really well. (what amounts to bribery kept their mouths shut )

Employers don't like hiring single fathers any more than they do single mothers. It's a risk. Whether you're a dad or a mom, you're gonna miss work when the sitter's unavailable or you're kids are sick or they got hurt or in trouble at school. Single parents are not the most reliable employees. Again, that's just how it is.