A Pathological Insight to Mass Murderers

FlaSkyEye said:
Excellent article. Shame this life saving information doesn't garner the massive mainstream media outlets attention like the SuperBowl. the OSCARs, etc, etc, etc. Not enough money in it I guess.
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Yes it is. But that's one reason (family contacts another) i'm still on FB. i share things like this--videos and articles there and here. Tho i have to be circumspect with overtly political info on this forum.
 
Peterson: I don’t think most people realize that these are suicides, in addition to homicides. Mass shooters design these to be their final acts. When you realize this, it completely flips the idea that someone with a gun on the scene is going to deter this. If anything, that’s an incentive for these individuals. They are going in to be killed.

It’s hard to focus on the suicide because these are horrific homicides. But it’s a critical piece because we know so much from the suicide prevention world that can translate here.

That's something that needs to be focused on. Why are these young men suicidal?

In all likelihood, they've lost all hope for a decent future and they've given up even trying. And rather than just kill themselves, they take as many people with them as they can. At least that way, they're remembered. They don't feel so much like a nobody when they're able to kill a dozen or so people. They're going out in a blaze of gunfire and destroying as much of the world in their final act!

Of course, without access to high powered, high capacity weapons, they wouldn't be able to kill so many people with such ease and they'd probably just keep on slugging along like the rest of us slugs. Many of them would emerge from the dark phase they're experiencing and go on to lead decent lives.

That's my opinion, anyway.
 
SeniorBen said:
Peterson: I don’t think most people realize that these are suicides, in addition to homicides. Mass shooters design these to be their final acts. When you realize this, it completely flips the idea that someone with a gun on the scene is going to deter this. If anything, that’s an incentive for these individuals. They are going in to be killed.

It’s hard to focus on the suicide because these are horrific homicides. But it’s a critical piece because we know so much from the suicide prevention world that can translate here.

That's something that needs to be focused on. Why are these young men suicidal?

In all likelihood, they've lost all hope for a decent future and they've given up even trying. And rather than just kill themselves, they take as many people with them as they can. At least that way, they're remembered. They don't feel so much like a nobody when they're able to kill a dozen or so people. They're going out in a blaze of gunfire and destroying as much of the world in their final act!

Of course, without access to high powered, high capacity weapons, they wouldn't be able to kill so many people with such ease and they'd probably just keep on slugging along like the rest of us slugs. Many of them would emerge from the dark phase they're experiencing and go on to lead decent lives.

That's my opinion, anyway.
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Many of them had some form of personal childhood trauma,(witnessing or on receiving end of domestic violence) then there's the culture we live in--- the Uvalde shooter was 8 yrs old when Sandy Hook happened. He came of age with ever more frequent mass shootings basically becoming normalized as somehow unavoidable in America. (Despite the success at three other countries that are heavily armed have had with sensible gun regulations.)

So did a whole lot of other kids, the difference between those who choose his course and those who continue to try to do good and seek solutions (the Parkland survivors) likely lies in either their home or community environments. The kids that keep hope alive likely had no other large trauma, save surviving a mass shooting, and had family/community support that helped them not succumb to despair.

When i belonged to "Gatekeepers" group, which was funded by a fed grant. The idea was for all kinds of staff at schools to learn how to spot, and facilitate treatment for those at risk of falling into suicidal ideation, in part because of that 'going out in blaze, being remembered' mindset you mentioned. We used those same phrases at a discussion (with psychologists and local law enforcement) after the Virginia Tech incident.
 
JonSR77 said:
My wife is the Media Relations Director of Seton Hall University. So, she is the one who promotes the books that the various professors publish.

One of them is an expert in the psychology of violence. She's worked with him a number of times.

Here's his profile from the Seton Hall website:

https://www.shu.edu/profiles/lonnieathens.cfm

It lists some of his books.

Very nice guy. Laurie has worked with him for some years now.

If I remember, I don't think he was working in the arena of mass shootings. More regular murders and, I think, research about serial killers also...
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Seton Hall. That's cream of the crop.
 
I have always wondered about the connection between mass shooting events and the psychology behind "suicide by cop."

I wonder if a lot of these events are not a suicidal intention by the perpetrator...who can't quite bring themselves to suicide...so they do something horrific, in the hopes that the police take their lives.

And, I am not quite sure it is some kind of conscious decision.


I had an old girlfriend who was in a bad marriage. She wanted to leave him for years, but she couldn't bring herself to do it. Finally, she cheated on him with someone he knew well.

You know? Kind of a destructive thing, a destructive way to resolve a problem?

I wonder if some psychology like that is at play with these shootings...or, at least, some of the time...
 
FlaSkyEye said:
Seton Hall. That's cream of the crop.
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Well, academically, it's not Harvard. But, you know, very very nice people. Staff is very nice and dedicated, students are not really the norm. Less of a party school. Truly, a quality place. They just had the US Ambassador to the UN speak there. And also the Secretary General just gave the commencement speech. My wife was on the team that brought them there.

I was joking with her, that they were just tired of being in NYC and seeing concrete all the time, and just wanted to drive over the Bridge and see some Green here in Jersey.

Also, you know, the priest community is involved in endless charity projects. The students too. They are always doing volunteer work and helping in the community...

Laurie said that Ambassador Thomas-Greenfield was very nice, very friendly, really wanted to spend time with the students and really enjoyed talking with them...


US Ambassador to the United Nations Linda Thomas-Greenfield - World Leaders Forum Address

 
JonSR77 said:
I have always wondered about the connection between mass shooting events and the psychology behind "suicide by cop."

I wonder if a lot of these events are not a suicidal intention by the perpetrator...who can't quite bring themselves to suicide...so they do something horrific, in the hopes that the police take their lives.

And, I am not quite sure it is some kind of conscious decision.


I had an old girlfriend who was in a bad marriage. She wanted to leave him for years, but she couldn't bring herself to do it. Finally, she cheated on him with someone he knew well.

You know? Kind of a destructive thing, a destructive way to resolve a problem?

I wonder if some psychology like that is at play with these shootings...or, at least, some of the time...
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At some of the news outlets their crime reporters are retired law enforcement with communications degrees and they say a fair number of murder suicides are the result of breakups due to severe financial difficulties or infidelity. I am no expert in mass murders, serial killings, homicides, suicides, murder/suicide or suicide by cop. I don't even think the best FBI profilers will really ever know.
 
FlaSkyEye said:
At some of the news outlets their crime reporters are retired law enforcement with communications degrees and they say a fair number of murder suicides are the result of breakups due to severe financial difficulties or infidelity. I am no expert in mass murders, serial killings, homicides, suicides, murder/suicide or suicide by cop. I don't even think the best FBI profilers will really ever know.
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Oh, I tend to agree. Still many unknowns.
 
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JonSR77 said:
Oh, I tend to agree. Still many unknowns.

And then, even if someone knows...they could be in a system with its own internal politics...and not allowed, for one reason or another to simply tell the complete truth.

I do know of a Jersey based case. Guy was in the military. Caught his wife cheating on him. Tried to murder the wife and the lover...shot them, but did not kill them. Then turned the gun on himself and took his life.

I guess it is some kind of ego thing? A damaged ego thing?

Who knows? I don't.

I do remember that Irish Mob assassin, Mickey Featherstone, basically was so abused while serving in Vietnam...and he became really angry and supposedly that contributed to him becoming a killer. And by abused, I mean just a lot of basically ribbing him over this and that. Ego bruised or something? Who knows? Guy did have the perfect surname for a crime novel...but was his real name...
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Not funny but that scenario reminds me of the meme where the husband catches his wife in bed with another man. Hubby pulls out a gun and puts it to his head. The cheating wife and her lover start laughing and the husband says what are you two laughing at? You're next.
 
SeniorBen said:
Peterson: I don’t think most people realize that these are suicides, in addition to homicides. Mass shooters design these to be their final acts. When you realize this, it completely flips the idea that someone with a gun on the scene is going to deter this. If anything, that’s an incentive for these individuals. They are going in to be killed.

It’s hard to focus on the suicide because these are horrific homicides. But it’s a critical piece because we know so much from the suicide prevention world that can translate here.

That's something that needs to be focused on. Why are these young men suicidal?

In all likelihood, they've lost all hope for a decent future and they've given up even trying. And rather than just kill themselves, they take as many people with them as they can. At least that way, they're remembered. They don't feel so much like a nobody when they're able to kill a dozen or so people. They're going out in a blaze of gunfire and destroying as much of the world in their final act!

Of course, without access to high powered, high capacity weapons, they wouldn't be able to kill so many people with such ease and they'd probably just keep on slugging along like the rest of us slugs. Many of them would emerge from the dark phase they're experiencing and go on to lead decent lives.

That's my opinion, anyway.
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Unless they're White. Look at how many White mass murderers got to live and stand trial while many unarmed Black people were killed by what I call "Killer Kops". It makes me sick! Some of the mass murderers kill themselves. I wish that would be their first action instead of their last. :cry:🤬
 
Interesting article but as always one size does not fit all....
In MANY previous cases .........if someone had spoke up about a person saying suicidal things or talking of doing something at school etc.... BUT they did Not speak up... they did not follow thru..... why? ........ Maybe because they thought it was all talk or possibly ....
IF a plan was thwarted and person may target them for interrupting the "plan".

Same mentality that exists in workplaces or social circles many know what is going on but....... If someone wants to report things all of a sudden ........People become wishy washy about details and want to remain anonymous and NOT go on record on any complaint.

I have seen people with horrible backgrounds that rose above and did not let bad childhoods or abuse define them .......
Seen others that the slightest incident become obsessed about it.

Mental Health probably more then any other healthcare item ....
REQUIRES patient involvement for treatment and not in a passive way.
If a place had 15 highly trained mental health professionals would make zero difference IF patient did not participate.
 
SeniorBen said:
That's something that needs to be focused on. Why are these young men suicidal?

In all likelihood, they've lost all hope for a decent future and they've given up even trying. And rather than just kill themselves, they take as many people with them as they can. At least that way, they're remembered. They don't feel so much like a nobody when they're able to kill a dozen or so people. They're going out in a blaze of gunfire and destroying as much of the world in their final act!

Of course, without access to high powered, high capacity weapons, they wouldn't be able to kill so many people with such ease and they'd probably just keep on slugging along like the rest of us slugs. Many of them would emerge from the dark phase they're experiencing and go on to lead decent lives.

That's my opinion, anyway.
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an incentive for these individuals; They are going in to be killed. I'd be quick to do them that favor.

Most school shooters aren't concerned with the future, they're focused on the present. Their "peers" are having sex and they aren't. Their peers are excelling in sports or academics, get invited to parties, have cool cars, wear expensive clothing etc.etc, while the future shooter gets bullied, laughed at, never taken seriously, or whatever. So, yes, he hates them and he'll take out as many as possible on his way out of this cruel, cruel world. Revenge, suicide, and a legacy.
 
Jeni said:
If a place had 15 highly trained mental health professionals would make zero difference IF patient did not participate.
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Actually, possible diagnoses can be considered just by observing a patient. Patients who sit silently are participating without even realizing it. And out of 15 highly trained mental health professionals, I'm sure 10 at the very least would know how to get the patient talking and, eventually, fully participating.
 
FlaSkyEye said:
At some of the news outlets their crime reporters are retired law enforcement with communications degrees and they say a fair number of murder suicides are the result of breakups due to severe financial difficulties or infidelity. I am no expert in mass murders, serial killings, homicides, suicides, murder/suicide or suicide by cop. I don't even think the best FBI profilers will really ever know.
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JonSR77 said:
Oh, I tend to agree. Still many unknowns.
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SeniorBen said:
Somebody should do a study on the homes in which mass murderers grew up. Something obviously went wrong and I'd bet there was abuse in many of them.
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You guys should watch the Netflix series, Mindhunter, about the psychological analysis of criminals' minds, mostly serial killers, in order to understand their twisted psyches. It's based on real events and the FBI agents who invented profiling techniques in the 1970s.
 
Murrmurr said:
Actually, possible diagnoses can be considered just by observing a patient. Patients who sit silently are participating without even realizing it. And out of 15 highly trained mental health professionals, I'm sure 10 at the very least would know how to get the patient talking and, eventually, fully participating.
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maybe able to assume and diagnose but what HELP is that ..... long term the mental ill person needs to participate in getting well.
 
Jeni said:
maybe able to assume and diagnose but what HELP is that ..... long term the mental ill person needs to participate in getting well.
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Of course. And with a proper diagnosis the person can be referred to the proper therapist/psychologist/psychiatrist. Not all of them are specialists in psychosis, social dysfunction, organic dysfunction, personality disorders, etc. I wouldn't send a schizophrenic, for example, to a family counselor, or someone who requires medication to a psychologist.
 
Speaking up doesn't always work. My daughter's acquaintance in high school texted her about shooting up the school. She reported it and called the police. They came and talked to her, read the texts on her phone, and left. Guidance counselor talked to student and his parents. The parents agreed to seek counseling for him, but he never went.

I was less than happy about the nebulous outcome. What if he had carried out his plan, given that nothing happened?
 
WheatenLover said:
Speaking up doesn't always work. My daughter's acquaintance in high school texted her about shooting up the school. She reported it and called the police. They came and talked to her, read the texts on her phone, and left. Guidance counselor talked to student and his parents. The parents agreed to seek counseling for him, but he never went.

I was less than happy about the nebulous outcome. What if he had carried out his plan, given that nothing happened?
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absolutely ....
have seen numerous examples where the people say they will seek help but zero follow through ..
or one person who said it was all just kidding ........and then did what he said he would a few weeks later after people forgot about the POSSIBLE issue.....
 
SeniorBen said:
Somebody should do a study on the homes in which mass murderers grew up. Something obviously went wrong and I'd bet there was abuse in many of them.
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Murrmurr said:
You guys should watch the Netflix series, Mindhunter, about the psychological analysis of criminals' minds, mostly serial killers, in order to understand their twisted psyches. It's based on real events and the FBI agents who invented profiling techniques in the 1970s.
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^^This.
 
Murrmurr said:
an incentive for these individuals; They are going in to be killed. I'd be quick to do them that favor.

Most school shooters aren't concerned with the future, they're focused on the present. Their "peers" are having sex and they aren't. Their peers are excelling in sports or academics, get invited to parties, have cool cars, wear expensive clothing etc.etc, while the future shooter gets bullied, laughed at, never taken seriously, or whatever. So, yes, he hates them and he'll take out as many as possible on his way out of this cruel, cruel world. Revenge, suicide, and a legacy.
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But also- think of how many people in our generation had similar bad experiences, but didn't go killing people.

Not long ago, I read an article that was about bad/stressful things young people these days often deal with, and examples were presented as new to today's young people... bullying, grieving the loss of a family member or friend, etc. But the majority of the examples weren't new at all. I think one thing "researchers" should be focusing on is why young people these days can't cope with problems in their lives. It's "the flip-side of the same coin" of many teenagers and even young children committing suicide.
 


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