Amazon In the News. And It's Not Nice.

K

Kitties

Member
Did anyone see the news regarding the New York Times article on Amazon. It seems like it's another corporate nightmare.

Is this every corporation. I'm torn since I order from Amazon. Is there no place to shop that doesn't have this stuff going on. I know the corporation I work for isn't nice.
 

I am about to use Amazon. My wife uses it. What, exactly, was the article aimed at? imp
 
:confused: Kitties, are you going to tell us exactly what you are talking about? An what do you mean by "not nice"?
 

I've heard a lot of stories over the last several years. The lack of air conditioning in the Amazon warehouse in Pennsylvania tells me that this a barge ahead consequences be darned work environment or culture. Indoor physical work in an un air conditioned plant???. Throw in unrealistic metrics=a recipe for disaster.

That being said a lot of companies in a lot of industries have a lot of hard to reach or unrealistic goals. But people need the incentive of numbers and management needs numbers to measure, compare and analyze. I know people who love UPS and others who thought it was a slave environment because everything they did was measured with a number including the number of packages handled per hour. Being an internet retailer Amazon employees should realize that brick & mortar sales or package pick up goals are not pressure free. As is an assembly line in a car manufacturer. Customer service reps have so many seconds to answer a call, handle a call and/or resolve an issue let alone getting or retaining customers.

But there is a very fine line between incentive and demoralization. This is the trick of most management-get the most out of your employees without throwing out the baby with the bath water which many seem to forget.

My thing with Amazon and others is that the internet business escapes a lot of the taxing physical stores have to do. This allowed for very fast and careless/unthought out expansion which in turn leads to intense metrics and goals to keep up the rate of the business growth which is partially based on tax free sales and not how many packages can be sorted and delivered an hour. You can make all the process efficiencies you want but without the pricing tax free sales can/could offer daily life inside the world of Amazon management ideas in moot.
 
WhatInThe said:
I've heard a lot of stories over the last several years. The lack of air conditioning in the Amazon warehouse in Pennsylvania tells me that this a barge ahead consequences be darned work environment or culture. Indoor physical work in an un air conditioned plant???. Throw in unrealistic metrics=a recipe for disaster.

That being said a lot of companies in a lot of industries have a lot of hard to reach or unrealistic goals. But people need the incentive of numbers and management needs numbers to measure, compare and analyze. I know people who love UPS and others who thought it was a slave environment because everything they did was measured with a number including the number of packages handled per hour. Being an internet retailer Amazon employees should realize that brick & mortar sales or package pick up goals are not pressure free. As is an assembly line in a car manufacturer. Customer service reps have so many seconds to answer a call, handle a call and/or resolve an issue let alone getting or retaining customers.

But there is a very fine line between incentive and demoralization. This is the trick of most management-get the most out of your employees without throwing out the baby with the bath water which many seem to forget.

My thing with Amazon and others is that the internet business escapes a lot of the taxing physical stores have to do. This allowed for very fast and careless/unthought out expansion which in turn leads to intense metrics and goals to keep up the rate of the business growth which is partially based on tax free sales and not how many packages can be sorted and delivered an hour. You can make all the process efficiencies you want but without the pricing tax free sales can/could offer daily life inside the world of Amazon management ideas in moot.
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I don't understand what you are getting at, I guess-- particularly the last sentence. Every business I've ever worked for has guidelines, etc., that employees are measured by. And what does the tax free (this would be state sales tax, I would guess) thing have to do with anything? Most internet sellers don't have to collect sales tax unless they are doing business in a state in which they are located.
 
I sometimes shop at Amazon, and have always had very good service as a customer. It seems that the CEO of Amazon is very open with the employees to read the article against the company and send any comments or concerns to him via email. He looks like he wants to correct any instances that may have occurred where there was no empathy for the employee, like the lady who was going through breast cancer issues being told to concentrate on her work, etc. He also encouraged employees to go to HR when necessary to deal with these things.

I think the sign of a good company is not that they never have problems, but they actively try to solve them when they are aware of them. I don't know how much of the negative article is true or not, but I would like to note that there are always two sides to a story, and if the bad things are improved, that's a plus for everyone involved. Time will tell if he really cares to make things better for the employees. I did physical work for decades in an un-airconditioned warehouse environment, and we all made the best of it. Here's another article with a short video by the CEO. http://www.nbcnews.com/business/bus...after-scathing-new-york-times-article-n410886
 
Butterfly said:
I don't understand what you are getting at, I guess-- particularly the last sentence. Every business I've ever worked for has guidelines, etc., that employees are measured by. And what does the tax free (this would be state sales tax, I would guess) thing have to do with anything? Most internet sellers don't have to collect sales tax unless they are doing business in a state in which they are located.
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Eluding or not paying sales taxes is a huge part of their success & profit. It's not all innovative or progressive management. No matter how hard they try to top themselves they will not be able to surpass what having no sales tax means to their success. They can push for more packages per hour, faster delivery, cheaper prices but that tax advantage internet retailers enjoy is a huge advantage over brick & mortar. Usually when management pushes unrealistic metrics the management doesn't understand the realities of their job or business. I understand the need for metrics, goals etc but I've seen too many ambitious or unrealistic managers & want to bes in the large companies wind up cutting their own throats because they make promises, pledges and agreements they can't keep. In the meantime they put their employees through heck.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...zon-ebay-congress-editorials-debates/3772385/
 
Sorry I didn't post a link to the article. My laptop is so old if I open two windows, it will probably freeze.

But as I stated it's an article from the New York Times. There was a segment on CNN and then I found the article.

I know the stress working for a corporation can have. I know many many jobs have stress. However this piece on CNN and then the article kind of hit with me considering what I'm gong through with my own job.

Whatinthe, I understand what you mean by the demoralization. I don't want to get into details but this is the truth: my boss was yelling four letter words at me over the phone weekend before last when I had to call her about something I HAD to call her about. Not the first time I've been yelled at at work.
 
Kitties said:
Sorry I didn't post a link to the article. My laptop is so old if I open two windows, it will probably freeze.

But as I stated it's an article from the New York Times. There was a segment on CNN and then I found the article.

I know the stress working for a corporation can have. I know many many jobs have stress. However this piece on CNN and then the article kind of hit with me considering what I'm gong through with my own job.

Whatinthe, I understand what you mean by the demoralization. I don't want to get into details but this is the truth: my boss was yelling four letter words at me over the phone weekend before last when I had to call her about something I HAD to call her about. Not the first time I've been yelled at at work.
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Work place bullying or a culture of fear can be a problem. I've had them. It took a while but sometimes the screamers are actually better to work for in that they scream, they don't write as in write up and as long as they are screaming you are employed as warped as that sounds. You actually know where you stand. I've had phone throwers, tantrum throwers, short tempers etc. Sometimes the fussy ones are the ones you learn off of but others are immature Napoleon complexed butt holes-and I've seen this type fail in different companies/industries-lack of impulse control gets them. Hang in there

Also the corporate management culture in most big companies is high pressure period. To me once one is in management which is voluntary in most places and is gunning for a promotion or bonus it is on them. Too many manager want to bes think they are smarter than the room and/or 'they can handle it'-not.

Also on safety:

Amazon has a poor safety record on the east coast suffering 2 fatalities in Pennsylvania and New Jersey in 2 years.

http://www.nj.com/middlesex/index.s...identified_as_grandfather_from_irvington.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-related-mans-death-New-Jersey-warehouse.html

And in the infamous Pennsylvania warehouse prior to air conditioning they had a two month period where 30 employees were treated by paramedics for heat/hydration issues.

http://www.safetynewsalert.com/amazon-warehouse-investigated-by-osha/

Amazon seems to be getting out of some the liability/responsibility by hiring temporary workers from temp agencies. The temp agencies have been cited by Osha for not surveying and properly informing them of the environment they will be working in.

Safety is a two way street. The employer has to give the time to work safe and the employee has to take the time to work safe. In the end the employer is liable and the employee is responsible for their personal actions ie follow the safety procedures.
 
Out of all the thousands of Amazon employees, and ex-employees, world wide they found about 100 to complain.

Any success, in business, sport or entertainment, will invariably attract those only to willing to denigrate

The BBC did a similar programme in 2013. It was quickly discredited.
 
Laurie said:
Out of all the thousands of Amazon employees, and ex-employees, world wide they found about 100 to complain.

Any success, in business, sport or entertainment, will invariably attract those only to willing to denigrate

The BBC did a similar programme in 2013. It was quickly discredited.
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Very good, fully agree.
 
Laurie said:
Out of all the thousands of Amazon employees, and ex-employees, world wide they found about 100 to complain.

Any success, in business, sport or entertainment, will invariably attract those only to willing to denigrate

The BBC did a similar programme in 2013. It was quickly discredited.
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Is this German plant one of the plants/complaints discredited?

http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/article...der-fire-over-alleged-worker-abuse-in-germany

I think there is a lot of drama queen stuff in the original NYT article including 'crying at desk or laughter not allowed'. Then there are disappointed, not mistreated employees. I also notice world wide Amazon is using a lot of temps & agencies so subcontracting and subcontractors seem to be part of the issue here.

I don't think the CEO created a negative culture on purpose but his company grew big and fast. Big corporations create a lot of smaller kingdoms ie regions, districts or individual locations where the local management runs a dictatorship. They eventually get deposed but as a temp or new employee I can see them being over whelmed pretty quick into their employment.

One of the problem with workplace "surveys" is lack of anonymity. No one will complain to one of the those "confidential" help lines or state their true opinion on a survey. For years I always rated above average on things out of fear.( which is the worst thing to do on a survey because now a person or policy appears to working out just fine, no changes needed) To be more honest I started using "none of the above" or "neither agree or disagree". Reason I brought that up is that CEO said email him direct with complaints and I'm sure he'll get some but many with legitimate complaints will not send him one out of fear of retaliation. What's going to happen the CEO is going to delegate the complaint and/or corrections to local management and they are the ones to be feared, not the CEO.

As SB noted how a company handles problems for the consumer or employee is a big factor with me. We'll see if the complaints stop or shrink.
 
More interesting information. Some people wouldn't believe what I have to stuff down on a daily basis. I don't think most know what goes on in many work places, myself included.

To be a boss in a corporate position is beyond my comprehension.
 
Laurie said:
Out of all the thousands of Amazon employees, and ex-employees, world wide they found about 100 to complain.

Any success, in business, sport or entertainment, will invariably attract those only to willing to denigrate

The BBC did a similar programme in 2013. It was quickly discredited.
Click to expand...
I think many people don't want to complain. It takes a lot for me to make a complaint. I'm just going to edit my post to say as long as the wheels are turning and profits rolling in, I don't believe most corporations care who gets wheeled over.
 
WhatInThe said:
Safety is a two way street. The employer has to give the time to work safe and the employee has to take the time to work safe. In the end the employer is liable and the employee is responsible for their personal actions ie follow the safety procedures.
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We had one employee who had his safety gear with him, didn't bother putting it on and didn't pay attention to his surroundings even though he'd been warned by the foreman to watch out for the missing glass panel in that awning and he fell through it, landed on a rail and it broke his back. I think the only thing we had to pay for (as employers) was the ambulance ride. There were no fines or penalties.

But we had another employee that was working on a glass awning, cleaning windows and because he was experienced, he figured that he didn't need to bother with safety gear and what the heck it was only ten feet above ground level. A Workmen's Compensation inspector just happened by at that moment (just our luck eh?), saw him and we wound up paying a $75,000.00 fine even though the employee admitted to Workmen's Comp. that he'd been told to wear the gear and had personally decided not to. So employees aren't always 'held responsible' for their actions and sometimes (maybe often?), employers are doing the best they can to protect staff but staff unfortunately sometimes ignore warnings, etc.
 
Kitties said:
More interesting information. Some people wouldn't believe what I have to stuff down on a daily basis. I don't think most know what goes on in many work places, myself included.

To be a boss in a corporate position is beyond my comprehension.
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Are you sympathetic to the boss or feeling something else when you say that? I'm only asking because my husband was the owner of a window cleaning company in Vancouver for 35 years and while we did make more money than our employees, his day didn't end at 5 nor did he ever get weekends off because there was the constant anxiety about arranging jobs and making sure all the customers and employees were as content as possible and that the entire crew had jobs to go to every day next week and remembering who worked well together, which two bickered and accomplished less, and which one needed direction, etc. Being a boss has perks and benefits but it can be a minefield of personalities and responsibilities.
 
Debby said:
We had one employee who had his safety gear with him, didn't bother putting it on and didn't pay attention to his surroundings even though he'd been warned by the foreman to watch out for the missing glass panel in that awning and he fell through it, landed on a rail and it broke his back. I think the only thing we had to pay for (as employers) was the ambulance ride. There were no fines or penalties.

But we had another employee that was working on a glass awning, cleaning windows and because he was experienced, he figured that he didn't need to bother with safety gear and what the heck it was only ten feet above ground level. A Workmen's Compensation inspector just happened by at that moment (just our luck eh?), saw him and we wound up paying a $75,000.00 fine even though the employee admitted to Workmen's Comp. that he'd been told to wear the gear and had personally decided not to. So employees aren't always 'held responsible' for their actions and sometimes (maybe often?), employers are doing the best they can to protect staff but staff unfortunately sometimes ignore warnings, etc.
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At the national corporate level I've seen employees written up by management simply for not wearing their safety belt when using a company vehicle let alone actual work site safety which can be a couple dozen item check list. Depending on the size of the company and work involved some companies are required to give lets say 4 hours of safety training a month/show proof an on going safety program of a which can include meetings, videos, classes etc which can exempt a company from routine or random inspections. OSHA or safety administration is so busy they don't inspect unless there is a specific request(good luck) or fatality. Many insurance companies and lawyers require safety training to shift some liability to the employee because now the company can say I told them. That doesn't mean the company itself doesn't have to keep a safe environment. Like many work place policies it becomes a tool for leverage, power & discipline rather than it's intended purpose.
 
WhatInThe said:
Eluding or not paying sales taxes is a huge part of their success & profit. It's not all innovative or progressive management. No matter how hard they try to top themselves they will not be able to surpass what having no sales tax means to their success. They can push for more packages per hour, faster delivery, cheaper prices but that tax advantage internet retailers enjoy is a huge advantage over brick & mortar. Usually when management pushes unrealistic metrics the management doesn't understand the realities of their job or business. I understand the need for metrics, goals etc but I've seen too many ambitious or unrealistic managers & want to bes in the large companies wind up cutting their own throats because they make promises, pledges and agreements they can't keep. In the meantime they put their employees through heck.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...zon-ebay-congress-editorials-debates/3772385/
Click to expand...

FIRST OFF, the COMPANY does not "pay" sales tax. It is required to collect sales tax from its customers in areas specified by law (i.e., where the company has its business or the state in which it is incorporated). The company, as I said COLLECTS sales tax from the customers (which is why YOU, as the customer, are charged sales tax), and then passes it on to the state or taxing body. Sales tax is a local/state thing, not federal. If a company fails to collect sales tax from its customers in a taxable area, then the company must pay the tax itself. The sales tax has no impact on the company's actual profit (except for administrative costs to collect it and pass it on), as it is paid by the customer. The article does not say that Amazon is eluding sales tax, it says that the law as it stands does not require them to collect it.
 
Butterfly said:
FIRST OFF, the COMPANY does not "pay" sales tax. It is required to collect sales tax from its customers in areas specified by law (i.e., where the company has its business or the state in which it is incorporated). The company, as I said COLLECTS sales tax from the customers (which is why YOU, as the customer, are charged sales tax), and then passes it on to the state or taxing body. Sales tax is a local/state thing, not federal. If a company fails to collect sales tax from its customers in a taxable area, then the company must pay the tax itself. The sales tax has no impact on the company's actual profit (except for administrative costs to collect it and pass it on), as it is paid by the customer. The article does not say that Amazon is eluding sales tax, it says that the law as it stands does not require them to collect it.
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I get that the company doesn't "pay" the state sales tax but if a brick & mortar store reported x amount of sales they sure as heck better be including y amount of "collected" taxes. Probably in most cases if a brick & mortar comes up short they're going to cover it someway legal or not. But the online retailer until recently didn't have to collect or bother to collect for years. This is where Amazon and others made their niche. No taxes is incentive for customers ie 'a' sales driver. And it is 'some' of the fewer expenses an online retailer has. In three states when Amazon started collecting taxes the sales in those states dropped almost 10%. Not collecting might not affect the profit margin but it affects total sales and revenue. Those untaxed driven sales lead to more revenue and more money for Amazon and others to expand into other ventures. If Amazon and others had been taxing sales much earlier in the online sales game they might not have had the total dollars for expansion or lower prices. Amazon only has to collect taxes in or for 19 states. A brick & mortar is at a disadvantage in those other 31 states. Amazon and others have also tied up 'uncollected tax' cases in court for years. It's estimated that tax free and/or online shopping can cost states 23 BILLION dollars in revenue.

Some blame does go to the consumer but in reality who is going to voluntarily pay the use tax-unless the credit purchase history is audited(yeh right).

In essence Amazon and others have gained from 'eluding' or not having to collect and pay state sales taxes which has lead to more sales. Without that advantage which is too slowly being chipped away it will become harder to top themselves. This is where some of the alleged pressure is coming from towards Amazon employees. Upper management has to remember where a lot of their 'success' came from-on the backs of state revenue departments. So now Amazon employees will have to show increases while suffering fewer sales from taxed transactions. Yes that is pressure trying to show increases and offset decreases at the same time.

http://phys.org/news/2014-04-online-retailers-advantage-sales-tax.html

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2014/01...ales-tax-for-amazon-shoppers-in-three-states/

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Tax-VOX/2015/0818/Evading-online-sales-tax-is-too-easy
 
You're putting way too much emphasis on sales tax, which is a non-issue. They're following the law in not collecting sales tax from customers in places they are not required to collect sales tax. Do you pay more tax than required to? If the law's wrong, change the law, but don't complain about others using the law to their advantage.

And yes, states DO audit for sales tax compliance. Been there.
 
Butterfly said:
You're putting way too much emphasis on sales tax, which is a non-issue. They're following the law in not collecting sales tax from customers in places they are not required to collect sales tax. Do you pay more tax than required to? If the law's wrong, change the law, but don't complain about others using the law to their advantage.

And yes, states DO audit for sales tax compliance. Been there.
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I want to "legally" pay as little as possible but I don't think many realize they are responsible for those taxes. The use tax used to be tucked away in a state tax booklet now they are highlighted, italicized or in big dark ink. They tried implementing a new law by passing a bill in 2013 which stalled and the latest revival stalled again which probably means there is corporate lobbying behind it. If more consumers paid the use tax or had to pay the tax upfront perhaps they wouldn't be so laze fare about taxes.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/may/09/online-sales-tax-bill-stalls-in-congress/

One of the reasons I want them taxed is that maybe these states won't nickel & dime the individual taxpayer as much. I rather see the corporations collect pay the tax, not individuals. A chunk of that 23 billion a year might stop the nickel & dimming of individual state tax payers.
 
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