Amazon Prime Plane Down In Houston

oldman

oldman

Well-known Member
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Anyone hear anymore updates on the airplane crash in Trinity Bay, outside of Houston?

Here's the story, in case anyone missed it.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/23/atl...uston-airport-with-three-people-on-board.html

And here's the audio between the cockpit and Tower:


The B-767 was the plane that I flew the longest while I was employed at United. The NTSB is on the scene. It's hard to tell how long it will be before we hear the cause. Sometimes, these things take awhile, other times, we know within days. It could be anything from weather to pilot error.
 

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You're right, RR. The number one concern is the families after the bodies have been recovered. News has been really slow to come out about the NTSB investigation. Normally, they (the NTSB) do a daily update, but I haven't read anything since the day after the accident. A lot of people are making a lot of speculation at this point. There was some heavy weather in and around the Houston area at the time of the accident, however, supposedly, the plane never got into it. What I didn't hear on the ATC recordings that were released was the wind speed and direction. Normally, the ATC will report winds like, "Winds are 120 at 15 gusting to 25." The numbers "120" is the direction.
 

There were no weather issues in Houston at that time, or in that area. I heard the national news mention 'weather' and I just thought, Huh?

A witness on the ground told the local media that the plane was "surging" before going down. What is that Oldman?
 
RadishRose said:
I haven't seen anything more yet. Very sad for those families.
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Nothing to update --- yet...

".....Search crews dealt with unforgiving elements. Tuesday night's storm shifted the debris. Wednesday offered a heavy blanket of fog. Investigators said the focus is now on raking and dredging, searching the waters and bringing out the debris. However, with a powerful plane crashing into shallow duck hunting territory, conditions are less than ideal.

"A lot of that energy is still in the parts, and so it'll drive these parts deep into the bottom of that river bed and so they're going to have to dredge possibly 10-20 feet," Feith said......".
 
My condolences to the familes of the victims. (Lost my father to a small plane crash in 1954...) Have not seen anything new on this for several days.
 
Bonnie said:
There were no weather issues in Houston at that time, or in that area. I heard the national news mention 'weather' and I just thought, Huh?

A witness on the ground told the local media that the plane was "surging" before going down. What is that Oldman?
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According to what was on the radar at the time of the accident, there appeared to be weather coming in and near Houston at that time. From what I saw on the radar that was shared from the ATC's radar scope, there was a line of storms and showers approaching Houston from the west.

Anyway, surging is when the engines will rev and then die back down and then rev again. This can be caused by a clogged fuel line or filters, or other even if there is a bird strike that causes the rotation of the turbine to falter. Something that causes the turbine's spinning to be interrupted will cause a surge. The B-767 uses two engines from one of three different manufacturers. P&W (Pratt & Whitney), GE and Rolls Royce all make the engines for the 767. I liked the RR engines the best, only because they were the quietest.

After reading this statement from AccuWeather meteorologists, I am wondering if the plane may have experienced a microburst?

"The cause of the crash is still being investigated, but AccuWeather meteorologists suggest weather could be to blame."There were a few showers with gusty winds in the vicinity of Houston at the time of the crash. While an investigation needs to take place, these were around the area and could have been a factor in the crash," AccuWeather Senior Meteorologist Alan Reppert said."
 
I live about 15 miles from Trinity Bay and I don't recall any bad weather on Saturday. Here are some local news stories of the coverage; recovery is slow because the bay has a lot of silt and is being dredged. As far as I have heard, they have recovered 2 of the 3 crew members.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/...hes-into-trinity-bay-3-people-aboard-faa-says

https://www.click2houston.com/news/investigates/rough-weather-delays-search-for-crash-recovery-in-cargo-plane-crash-site


The sheriff said witnesses told authorities the plane went into a nose dive, then went into the water nose-first.

Hawthorne said witnesses said they heard what sounded like lightning before the plane went down.
"We first started getting 911 reports of eyewitnesses that watched it go nose-first into the bay," Hawthorne said.


 
C'est Moi said:
I live about 15 miles from Trinity Bay and I don't recall any bad weather on Saturday. Here are some local news stories of the coverage; recovery is slow because the bay has a lot of silt and is being dredged. As far as I have heard, they have recovered 2 of the 3 crew members.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/...hes-into-trinity-bay-3-people-aboard-faa-says

https://www.click2houston.com/news/investigates/rough-weather-delays-search-for-crash-recovery-in-cargo-plane-crash-site


The sheriff said witnesses told authorities the plane went into a nose dive, then went into the water nose-first.

Hawthorne said witnesses said they heard what sounded like lightning before the plane went down.
"We first started getting 911 reports of eyewitnesses that watched it go nose-first into the bay," Hawthorne said.


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This is weird. In my first post, I posted the YouTube video between the cockpit and the tower. The ATC is speaking about the bad weather in the area. So, now I am really confused.

The latest that I just found is that the CVR has been recovered, along with human remains. Man, this is terrible. My heart is aching for their families.

I also saw a very short video clip of the plane just before crashing that was picked up by a security camera. It shows the plane in a very steep angle toward the ground, but not what we would call a nose down position, although some do.

I hope that these pilots were well rested before this flight. One issue that has arisen in the past with pilots flying long haul freighters, which this trip was not, as it was coming from Miami, is that these pilots often suffer from fatigue.

Another question will be is; how many legs did these pilots fly prior to this short hop from Miami to Houston?
 
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On this evening's news, the Chambers County Sheriff said the cockpit was completely destroyed, so I hope they are able to get data from the CVR. They have found 2 bodies and "remains" of the 3rd. Really sad. All witnesses have said the plane was nose-down toward the bay.
 
C'est Moi said:
On this evening's news, the Chambers County Sheriff said the cockpit was completely destroyed, so I hope they are able to get data from the CVR. They have found 2 bodies and "remains" of the 3rd. Really sad. All witnesses have said the plane was nose-down toward the bay.
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Unfortunately, there is no data on the CVR, only voices of the pilots in the cockpit, which are sometimes vitally important. They need to find the FDR (Flight Data Recorder) to get the data. I had read that the plane went down in an area of very heavy silt and the recorder may be unrecoverable, but hopefully not.

If the 767 was the same series that I flew, the FDR should be located in the tail section or rear area of the plane, which should make it more likely to be recovered. Finding that recorder should tell the investigators what happened. Even the CVR may also be of help.
 
Although it happened a long time ago, it somehow reminded me of the crash of BEA 548. near London. This is well documented, but in brief, it was set against strike action about pay and conditions for some junior pilots. About an hour or two before the flight, the Captain had a violent argument with the Second officer. Just under two minutes into the flight the wing flaps were raised some 60knots below the required speed. Stall warnings were ignored and the plane (a Trident) went into a deep stall, crashing and killing all on board.

It was subsequently discovered that the captain had a serious heart condition and had experienced a rupture shortly before the incident. Graffiti was found inside the cockpit and it was speculated that another argument had broken out.
The design of the plane and its high tail configuration were also said to make the plane prone to stalling under certain conditions.
 
Capt Lightning said:
Although it happened a long time ago, it somehow reminded me of the crash of BEA 548. near London. This is well documented, but in brief, it was set against strike action about pay and conditions for some junior pilots. About an hour or two before the flight, the Captain had a violent argument with the Second officer. Just under two minutes into the flight the wing flaps were raised some 60knots below the required speed. Stall warnings were ignored and the plane (a Trident) went into a deep stall, crashing and killing all on board.

It was subsequently discovered that the captain had a serious heart condition and had experienced a rupture shortly before the incident. Graffiti was found inside the cockpit and it was speculated that another argument had broken out.
The design of the plane and its high tail configuration were also said to make the plane prone to stalling under certain conditions.
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A few years back a friend of mine who was a pilot for UPS took me up for a ride in one of those small one engine planes. I don't know planes very well so I can't tell you what kind it was. About a year later he just suddenly dropped dead of a massive heart attack. I've often thought about how bad that would have sucked if he had done that while I was up in that plane with him. Trying to figure out how to fly and land that plane by trial and error with maybe 10 seconds to do it in. And I hadn't even paid attention to what he was doing. I was just enjoying the scenery.
 
Capt Lightning said:
Although it happened a long time ago, it somehow reminded me of the crash of BEA 548. near London. This is well documented, but in brief, it was set against strike action about pay and conditions for some junior pilots. About an hour or two before the flight, the Captain had a violent argument with the Second officer. Just under two minutes into the flight the wing flaps were raised some 60knots below the required speed. Stall warnings were ignored and the plane (a Trident) went into a deep stall, crashing and killing all on board.

It was subsequently discovered that the captain had a serious heart condition and had experienced a rupture shortly before the incident. Graffiti was found inside the cockpit and it was speculated that another argument had broken out.
The design of the plane and its high tail configuration were also said to make the plane prone to stalling under certain conditions.
Click to expand...


I remember reading about this accident. The squabbling between the Captain and the F/O started in the pilot’s lounge. They were considering going on strike and the Captain, being old school, was against it. The squabbling continued after they were in the air and was a major distraction. I believe they may have started their descent, but the Captain did not have the plane configured correctly and stalled. After that, the outcome was disastrous.

This is another reason why we use what is referred to as a “sterile cockpit.” What this means is that from the time we pushback and until we get about 10,000 feet and when we begin our descent and until we turn onto the taxiway after landing, the ONLY communications in the cockpit between the people in the cockpit, must only be about the takeoff and then the landing. No other communications between the people in the cockpit is allowed.
 
Trade said:
A few years back a friend of mine who was a pilot for UPS took me up for a ride in one of those small one engine planes. I don't know planes very well so I can't tell you what kind it was. About a year later he just suddenly dropped dead of a massive heart attack. I've often thought about how bad that would have sucked if he had done that while I was up in that plane with him. Trying to figure out how to fly and land that plane by trial and error with maybe 10 seconds to do it in. And I hadn't even paid attention to what he was doing. I was just enjoying the scenery.
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I am not going to tell you that you could not possibly land the plane, but it would depend on certain elements being present. It would help if you had a lot of elevation. Of course those single engine small planes don’t fly very high. You would have to know how to use the radio to contact the tower for help. If there is an experienced pilot immediately available, then maybe you would be able to put the plane on the ground, so long as you did not stall. It would not be an envious position to be in. Of course, if there’s a parachute onboard, that’s another option.
 
Oldman, the crash of BE 548 happened 2 1/2 minutes after takeoff. Amongst other things, because of the impending strike, the plane was full on a normally quiet day. From what I've read, the main causes were that the captain had serious health issues, the failure to configure the plane correctly, inexperience of the FO and failure to maintain a safe airspeed.
I had thought that all civil aircraft needed a CVR, but this only came about in the UK as a result of this crash.

Interestingly I recently watched a video taken inside the cockpit of a plane on approach to an airport in Sweden. There was a male captain and a female FO. Most of the conversation is what you would expect and the captain explains the terrain and the weather you tend to get there. Suddenly she says, I think I've got something in my eye. The captain leans over and has a look but says that he can't see anything. The FO says it seems to have gone now, it must have been an eyelash. The landing then proceeds as normal. This amused me, but I thought that these trivial things must happen just as in any other occupation.


On the point of being able to land an aircraft, I've read in the news over the years of passengers being able to land light aircraft when the pilot has become unconscious. Generally, they've had the benefit of an experienced pilot or instructor to guide them.
 
I was actually flying back from visiting my daughter in California on the day the Amazon plane went down, February 23rd. The first leg of my flight left San Francisco right about the time the crash of the Amazon plane. I had set my watch to central time. At a little over two hours into the flight from San Fransisco to Charlotte it started to get kind of bumpy and they had the seatbelt light on from then on. And the descent into Charlotte was pretty bumpy too. We landed there shortly before 6pmn central time, 7 pm local. And then the flight from Charlotte into Mobile was also pretty bumpy. At least to me it was, but then I don't fly much and I'm kind of nervous about it. I kept looking at the flight attendants and they kept smiling so I guess it wasn't too bad. We landed in Mobile around 9pm central time.
 
Trade said:
I was actually flying back from visiting my daughter in California on the day the Amazon plane went down, February 23rd. The first leg of my flight left San Francisco right about the time the crash of the Amazon plane. I had set my watch to central time. At a little over two hours into the flight from San Fransisco to Charlotte it started to get kind of bumpy and they had the seatbelt light on from then on. And the descent into Charlotte was pretty bumpy too. We landed there shortly before 6pmn central time, 7 pm local. And then the flight from Charlotte into Mobile was also pretty bumpy. At least to me it was, but then I don't fly much and I'm kind of nervous about it. I kept looking at the flight attendants and they kept smiling so I guess it wasn't too bad. We landed in Mobile around 9pm central time.
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I flew west to east hundreds of times. Generally, this time of year, we always got the best tailwinds. More than likely, the turbulence that was experienced was probably caused by wind currents or jet stream. If it was cloudy, then there’s your answer. Nonetheless, always remember that planes don’t just drop out of the air, unless there is an unusual event. Relax and enjoy the flight.
 
C'est Moi said:
It it possible that the pilot chose to try to force the troubled plane into the bay to avoid a highly populated area?
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I like your thinking. Anything is possible and as it stands now, your idea is as good as anyone’s. I was kind of thinking that since there was some weather issues that it may have been a microburst, but that’s also a long shot. There was a microburst in 1985 in Dallas that brought down a Delta L-1011.

Maybe we should just wait for the NTSB to finish their investigation?
 
NBC updated the ongoing investigation of this crash. It is being reported that the pilots lost control of the aircraft 18 seconds prior to the end of the recording on the CVR. To me, I would speculate that something very suddenly and unexpected went wrong in a hurry. I stated earlier in one of my posts, that I thought that a microburst may have caused the crash and that would explain the suddenness of the pilots losing control.

I hope that I am wrong. I only ever experienced a microburst in a simulator and I can tell anyone, it first scares the heck out of you and then sweat breaks out. Then, you go back to your training and get out of it. The problem is that it takes time to overtake the microburst and if you don’t have enough elevation, you may run out of time while trying to get out of it.
 
oldman said:
NBC updated the ongoing investigation of this crash. It is being reported that the pilots lost control of the aircraft 18 seconds prior to the end of the recording on the CVR. To me, I would speculate that something very suddenly and unexpected went wrong in a hurry. I stated earlier in one of my posts, that I thought that a microburst may have caused the crash and that would explain the suddenness of the pilots losing control.

I hope that I am wrong. I only ever experienced a microburst in a simulator and I can tell anyone, it first scares the heck out of you and then sweat breaks out. Then, you go back to your training and get out of it. The problem is that it takes time to overtake the microburst and if you don’t have enough elevation, you may run out of time while trying to get out of it.
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What is a microburst?
 

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