Boston Hospital refuses Heart transplants on Un-vaccinated patients..

Irwin

Well-known Member
According to this model, it is stupid to refuse to get vaccinated based on your political beliefs:
Cipolla-matrix.jpg
The anti-vaxxers are incurring losses to themselves and to others.
  • The losses to themselves occur when they lose their jobs, are ostracized or condemned for their actions, or when they get sicker than they would have if they had been vaccinated.
  • The losses to others occurs when they do get infected and can spread the virus more precipitously than the fully vaccinated, when they're hospitalized and overloading medical resources, because of the harm they're doing to the economy in preventing effective management of the pandemic, and because of the costs of treatment that will need to be paid some day.
Nobody is gaining from anti-vaxxers refusing to get vaccinated other than politicians who are using the pandemic for political gain by telling people that it's all just a conspiracy created so government can control us.
 

ohioboy

Registered nitwit
Location
Ohio
Was watching some YouTube "Karen" videos. A pet shop employee would not let a woman in without a mask on, she claimed a medical exemption! First how is it a medical risk for wearing a mask for 5 or 10 minutes? In and out?

She calls the police and among her other brilliant legal ramblings, she said they were violating the Civil Rights Act of 1964, duh! She demanded the dispatcher order the employee to let her in! Of course the dispatcher had no such authority and she told the woman so. People, some that is, are so stupid.
 

Shero

Senior Member
It takes surgeons and their teams around 6 hours to do a heart transplant. Not to mention the door to door dash to get the heart before it dies.

A heart transplant patient's immune system is so weak, a cold could kill, never mind covid. Why should surgeons waste time, money and energy saving a life which is doomed from the start. The only real losers are his children, who had a stupid father. Maybe his family could ask Miss Piggy to recommend a cardiologist.
 

win231

SF VIP
Location
CA
The hospital did the right thing 100%, why waste a heart when it could be given to a smarter person! He was first on the list, now he is no longer on the list.

Ferguson ( the man) has two children ( what a loving father! not) and is expecting a third with his partner Heather, according to a GoFundMe page set up for him.

Brigham and Women’s Hospital, which is a Harvard teaching facility, said research had shown transplant recipients were at a much higher risk of dying from Covid compared to non-transplant patients.

“We do everything we can to ensure that a patient who receives a transplanted organ has the greatest chance of survival,” a spokesman told The Post.
.
^^^^ A heartfelt post.
 

dseag2

Dallas, TX
Location
Dallas, TX
You make a good point, no negativity here. Have you seen any statistics on this? Just wondering how prevalent the problem is.
I don't have any hard statistics. Most of them are from the early days of Covid. But here are some thoughts from a healthcare worker. This is a video posted 3 weeks ago. This is clearly endemic to certain parts of the country.

 

WheatenLover

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
“The organs are scarce: we are not going to distribute them to someone who has a poor chance of living when others who are vaccinated have a better chance post-surgery of surviving.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/25/heart-transplant-patient-refusing-covid-19-vaccine
I agree with this statement. There are so many more people on the transplant list than organs that become available. I think organs should go not go to people who have a poor chance of living. This person is not vaccinated for Covid, but if he caught it while his immune system was extremely weak, he would die.

https://www.organdonor.gov/learn/organ-donation-statistics
 

SeaBreeze

Endlessly Groovin'
Location
USA
 

StarSong

Awkward is my Superpower
You have fallen into the "All or Nothing" mindset. We are free to choose which vaccines, drugs, or procedures we want. It's "A la Carte."
The fact that someone doesn't trust one drug or procedure or vaccine doesn't mean they don't trust any drug or procedure or vaccine.
When qualifying for a transplant a patient is NOT free to choose the vaccines, drugs or procedures they want. The doctors are in the drivers' seats, which is made clear from the get-go. A very close friend had a double lung transplant 20 months ago. He takes myriad pills everyday including anti- rejection meds and follows detailed recommended protocols. He's had at least three Covid vaccines, gets an anesthetized (but painful after the fact) bronchoscopy every few months, and follows his doctors' orders TO THE LETTER.

While being assessed for the transplant list he and his family had to answer numerous questions and were interviewed by medical and psychological teams to be sure they would all follow the rules so the team was assured the transplant had maximum chance of success.

In accordance with his doctors' guidelines, other than his wife he sees nobody (including his children and grandchildren) without both being masked. Groceries are delivered. Meal outings are outdoors only, well distanced and he masks back up between bites. He knows what it feels like to be unable to breathe so he doesn't squawk about the restrictions. He's back to playing tennis (unmasked), hiking, and being fully alive. He knows Covid likely won't pose a threat to him forever...

If a potential transplant recipient refuses recommended medical treatment before qualifying, it certainly doesn't bode well for maximum long-term success - undoubtedly why the hospital declined him for the transplant list. Transplants are very expensive procedures and far more people are in need of transplants than ever receive them.

Re Mickey Mantle: His transplant was in 1995, so 27 years ago. Eons ago in transplant history. Agree he shouldn't have qualified, but it's impossible to know how many people signed up as organ donors because of the publicity around "The Mick" getting one when he had (undiagnosed) lung cancer.

His liver transplant might have ultimately been a net gain, saving more lives than the one it may have cost.
 
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win231

SF VIP
Location
CA
When qualifying for a transplant a patient is NOT free to choose the vaccines, drugs or procedures they want. The doctors are in the drivers' seats, which is made clear from the get-go. A very close friend had a double lung transplant 20 months ago. He takes myriad pills everyday including anti- rejection meds and follows detailed recommended protocols. He's had at least three Covid vaccines, gets an anesthetized (but painful after the fact) bronchoscopy every few months, and follows his doctors' orders TO THE LETTER.

While being assessed for the transplant list he and his family had to answer numerous questions and were interviewed by medical and psychological teams to be sure they would all follow the rules so the team was assured the transplant had maximum chance of success.

In accordance with his doctors' guidelines, other than his wife he sees nobody (including his children and grandchildren) without both being masked. Groceries are delivered. Meal outings are outdoors only, well distanced and he masks back up between bites. He knows what it feels like to be unable to breathe so he doesn't squawk about the restrictions. He's back to playing tennis (unmasked), hiking, and being fully alive. He knows Covid likely won't pose a threat to him forever...

If a potential transplant recipient refuses recommended medical treatment before qualifying, it certainly doesn't bode well for maximum long-term success - undoubtedly why the hospital declined him for the transplant list. Transplants are very expensive procedures and far more people are in need of transplants than ever receive them.

Re Mickey Mantle: His transplant was in 1995, so 27 years ago. Eons ago in transplant history. Agree he shouldn't have qualified, but it's impossible to know how many people signed up as organ donors because of the publicity around "The Mick" getting one when he had (undiagnosed) lung cancer.

His liver transplant might have ultimately been a net gain, saving more lives than the one it may have cost.
Mickey Mantle's transplant did not cost "The one life." It cost the lives of several children.
An alcoholic with money was put at the front of the line.
But hey, nice (but desperate) try at turning greed & corruption into something positive. :giggle:
 

StarSong

Awkward is my Superpower
Mickey Mantle's transplant did not cost "The one life." It cost the lives of several children.
An alcoholic with money was put at the front of the line.
But hey, nice (but desperate) try at turning greed & corruption into something positive. :giggle:
I have no idea who was behind him on the transplant list, and doubt you do either. At any rate, it was 27 years ago and qualifications have changed dramatically during the intervening years.

Bottom line - this heart patient made his choice and now has to live - or not - with the consequences. Maybe he'll be lucky and survive long enough to get vaccinated and move onto the list.
 

Jeni

Senior Member
I have no idea who was behind him on the transplant list, and doubt you do either. At any rate, it was 27 years ago and qualifications have changed dramatically during the intervening years.

Bottom line - this heart patient made his choice and now has to live - or not - with the consequences. Maybe he'll be lucky and survive long enough to get vaccinated and move onto the list.
If you read the article he WAS on list:

Patient removed from heart transplant list for refusing Covid-19 vaccine​

DJ Ferguson, 31, had previously been prioritized for a transplant by Brigham and Women’s hospital in Boston.

This was a reversal not a sorry you do not qualify for list ....... if this was their policy from start he would not have been Prioritized for it.
In his current condition it would not even be safe to get the vaccine.
 

Rah-Rah

Member
Yes @Jeni you are correct he was on the list. A very long list that many have to wait a very long time and even time that runs out before even getting a heart. The thing is as he moved up the list to the top just like with any other pending surgery you have to go through pre tests and have every i's dotted and t's crossed. The same has to be for this surgery if not more due to the extent of the surgery. I will have to ask my husband on that as he is an Anesthesiologist and although he has never been on a heart transplant surgery he has been in many surgeries. Regardless as it is stated in the article it was determined that the unvaccinated person getting a heart transplant would have a much better chance of dying from Covid than dying from the actual procedure. So that is why the hospital determined to take this recipient off the list.
 

Jeni

Senior Member
Looking deeper:
This man Has been hospitalized since NOVEMBER .... ON the list even though hospital says NO one is on list without... ?
THIS hospital Prioritized him according to this article ( assume the writers verified) ......although this hospital denies that now.
Hospital says look to our website.... it says must be vaccinated to be on list you must ......
a website change can be made in minutes and no one needs to know. I did website updates for a medical facility
so looking now does not say when the policy was in place and WHEN website that was updated.

If he was told in November you do not meet requirement you are now off list , sorry.... it would be a NON -story .....

Lots of information is missing ....... of course the family will frame it one way and hospital the other.... truth is in middle somewhere.

I doubt the family waited this long with his condition worsening if IT WAS clear the hospital position and most likely change was more recent...
but some made up their mind regardless.
A question this makes me think of is a person in end stage heart failure .....the doctors still think he can have a vaccine.

Why do they ask at pharmacy ... have you felt ill of any symptoms before shot? if an end stage heart patient it would be OK to give shot....

Or a better question If we are to believe those hospitalized with covid could not take shot as a treatment..since it was designed to make possible illness mild?
 

Rah-Rah

Member
The questions they ask at the pharmacy are those that pertain to symptoms that are related to Covid that could possibly mean the person has the virus. Giving the vaccine at that time would not be beneficial so they have to ask those questions. People with other illness or diseases such as end stage heart failure the Covid vaccine would not effect that I suppose. I am not a doctor or pharmacist, but I feel that if the chances are you have a Covid strain and you are getting the vaccine that is putting related to that into your system it could make things worse. If you have something that is unrelated to Covid it may not matter as much. This is just my opinion and I am far from a medical expert on this.

Regardless somewhere during this long process this patient was made aware of the decision he had to make and he made it and that was not to get vaccinated. He knew the consequences of that as well and now he is unfortunately dealing with that and off the list.
 

win231

SF VIP
Location
CA
If it's OK to refuse a life-saving procedure for someone who's not vaccinated, what's wrong with refusing treatment for a smoker with lung disease or an alcoholic with liver disease? Why waste a good liver on an alcoholic? Why waste chemotherapy on a smoker?
What's wrong with a doctor deciding that patients with any disease brought it on themselves, so they don't deserve treatment?
What's wrong with a doctor deciding that patients with diabetes are to blame for having diabetes? "If you didn't eat sugar, you wouldn't be diabetic. Why should we waste insulin on you?"
What's wrong with a doctor refusing knee replacement surgery for a patient who's overweight? "You wore out your knees by being too fat."
After all, there is NO question or debate that smoking & heavy drinking are detrimental to health, but there ARE questions about the safety of Covid vaccines.
 

Rah-Rah

Member
Do you not understand that they are saying it has to do with the likelihood of the heart transplant procedure that the recipient would die from Covid more than from the actual procedure and that is why they would rather give a healthy heart to someone that wouldn't happen to? The other procedures you mention like a smoker receiving chemotherapy the treatment is still effective for people who have been smokers or who are smokers. The same for those with liver disease who are alcoholics. A new liver is not going to increase the risk of killing that person. The difference and it is as plain as day written in the article is that they are saying an unvaccinated person chances of dying from Covid is much higher than actually dying from the actual heart transplant surgery so they would much more recommend giving a healthy heart to a vaccinated person.
 

win231

SF VIP
Location
CA
Do you not understand that they are saying it has to do with the likelihood of the heart transplant procedure that the recipient would die from Covid more than from the actual procedure and that is why they would rather give a healthy heart to someone that wouldn't happen to. The other procedures you mention like a smoker receiving chemotherapy the treatment is still effective for people who have been smokers or who are smokers. The same for those with liver disease who are alcoholics. A new liver is not going to increase the risk of killing that person. The difference and it is as plain as day writing in the article is that they are saying an unvaccinated person chances of dying from Covid is much higher than actually dying from the actual heart transplant surgery so they would much more recommend giving a healthy heart to a vaccinated person.
That's your take on it & (of course) you are entitled to it.
Just as I am entitled to mine.
The similarity has more to do with withholding treatment that might save a patient's life unless the patient agrees with everything the doctor is saying. A patient has the right to refuse or accept any treatment; a doctor can suggest a drug or vaccine but he has no right to make it a condition of treatment.
 

Rah-Rah

Member
That's your take on it & (of course) you are entitled to it.
Just as I am entitled to mine.
The similarity has more to do with withholding treatment that might save a patient's life unless the patient agrees with everything the doctor is saying. A patient has the right to refuse or accept any treatment; a doctor can suggest a drug or vaccine but he has no right to make it a condition of treatment.
You are 100% wrong. Have you ever watch the show where the Doctor deals with the patients that weigh quite a bit of weight. That doctor gives those patients all the recommendations they must follow and if they do not follow them to a tee he will not go forward with treating them. So yes a doctor can refuse treatment to a patient if they refuse the to follow the course of treatment including any medication involved that will help. Patients have also been discharged for hospitals because they have refused treatment or refused to follow the treatment of doctors while under their care in the hospital. Definitely not the smartest thing in the world, but it has happened.
 

Irwin

Well-known Member
It's a private hospital, as are all hospitals except for maybe the VA. Private companies have the right to serve whomever they choose and deny service to whomever they choose not to serve. It's capitalism. No shirt, no shoes, no service. Only a socialist would force them to serve someone they don't want to serve. Move to Venezuela if that's what you want. :cool:
 

win231

SF VIP
Location
CA
You are 100% wrong. Have you ever watch the show where the Doctor deals with the patients that weigh quite a bit of weight. That doctor gives those patients all the recommendations they must follow and if they do not follow them to a tee he will not go forward with treating them. So yes a doctor can refuse treatment to a patient if they refuse the to follow the course of treatment including any medication involved that will help. Patients have also been discharged for hospitals because they have refused treatment or refused to follow the treatment of doctors while under their care in the hospital. Definitely not the smartest thing in the world, but it has happened.
A TV show is for ratings & they don't get high ratings without drama; that's the purpose of "Reality Shows." Yes, I've seen those disgusting shows a couple of times, exploiting the obese. They don't represent real life; they're there to entertain & shock is part of that entertainment & ratings.
I'm surprised you (or anyone) would get your information from such a source.
 

SeaBreeze

Endlessly Groovin'
Location
USA
You are 100% wrong. Have you ever watch the show where the Doctor deals with the patients that weigh quite a bit of weight. That doctor gives those patients all the recommendations they must follow and if they do not follow them to a tee he will not go forward with treating them. So yes a doctor can refuse treatment to a patient if they refuse the to follow the course of treatment including any medication involved that will help. Patients have also been discharged for hospitals because they have refused treatment or refused to follow the treatment of doctors while under their care in the hospital. Definitely not the smartest thing in the world, but it has happened.
Of course you are correct. This wasn't related to a transplant, but last year I met this man at a park I frequent and he couldn't walk very well, went straight from his car to the picnic table. He said he had been in terrible pain from his knee and needed a knee replacement, but it would be a while before his doctor approved the surgery because he was obese and needed to lose the weight first before he could be helped. He said he was working on it, and I wished him the best. Didn't see him again after that day.
 

win231

SF VIP
Location
CA
Of course you are correct. This wasn't related to a transplant, but last year I met this man at a park I frequent and he couldn't walk very well, went straight from his car to the picnic table. He said he had been in terrible pain from his knee and needed a knee replacement, but it would be a while before his doctor approved the surgery because he was obese and needed to lose the weight first before he could be helped. He said he was working on it, and I wished him the best. Didn't see him again after that day.
Big difference. His knee replacement was not a life-saving procedure.
 

Becky1951

🌹
Location
Tennessee
I don't know anything about heart transplants but I assumed that after having one the person then has a healthy heart and can go about life as usual. Hike, water ski, dance, whatever they did before.

Apparently not? They are so fragile that even a cold will kill them?
 

SeaBreeze

Endlessly Groovin'
Location
USA
Big difference. His knee replacement was not a life-saving procedure.
The point being made, which always seems to go over your head, was that both men were informed of the requirements in order to qualify for their particular surgeries. The man I spoke of was a reasonable adult and was following his doctor's orders to prepare for his surgery. The covidiot in this thread refused to abide by the instruction of the medical doctors and refused to get the Covid vaccine, therefore forfeiting his place in line for the surgery. Very simple.

David Ferguson told CBS 4 his son D.J. was removed from his place on the transplant line at Brigham and Women's Hospital because his 31-year-old son will not get vaccinated against COVID-19.

“It’s kind of against his basic principles; he doesn’t believe in it. It’s a policy they are enforcing and so because he won’t get the shot, they took him off the list of a heart transplant,” Ferguson told the outlet.

The hospital said in a statement that the COVID-19 vaccine is only one of several other vaccinations required for transplants.

“And like many other transplant programs in the United States – the COVID-19 vaccine is one of several vaccines and lifestyle behaviors required for transplant candidates in the Mass General Brigham system in order to create both the best chance for a successful operation and also the patient’s survival after transplantation.”

The hospital stated on its website that transplant candidates “must also receive the seasonal influenza and hepatitis B vaccines, follow other healthy behaviors, and demonstrate they can commit to taking the required medications” following the procedure.

https://thehill.com/changing-americ...an-reportedly-denied-heart-transplant-because
 


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