Cenegenics: Scam or Legitimate?

SifuPhil

Resident Nutcase
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
Cenegenics.com

If you watch any television at all, chances are good that you've seen a Cenegenics commercial in the last few months. They've been on a massive advertising campaign to get new members into their program, and after checking out their site, downloading their brochure and doing some fact-checking I just wondered if anyone else had checked them out.

Basically they are an "aging management" business (not an "anti-aging" one, as has sometimes been claimed). Their goal is to provide concierge service to members through extensive medical testing, nutritional and exercise prescriptions and, most controversially, the administration of steroidal / hormonal compounds.

Their theory is that as we age we may make rudimentary attempts at maintaining health, but until now we've only gone about it in a slip-shod manner. They offer to take over the reigns and guide you through a regimen that they claim has proven successful in re-vitalizing their senior members.

This is only a "scratching-the-surface" attempt at explaining what they're all about, so if you're interested visit their website, download their brochure (PDF format) and decide for yourself.

One thing that is NOT mentioned anywhere is the price. My research turned up a few numbers: approx. $4,000 for the initial rounds of testing (for which you have to visit one of their centers for 2 or 3 days), followed by monthly maintenance costs (prescriptions, testing, etc.) of around $1,000-$1,500. It's not cheap, certainly, and it might explain why so many of their members are doctors, but what price health?
 

Elzee

New member
Joined
Oct 23, 2012
Location
Austin, TX
Good grief. My grandpa's attitude towards life was: Chin up and carry on. Why do we need to be looked after all the time? Why can't we be left alone? We are going to die anyways. So, a little peace and quiet along the way is my preference. My suggestion is that they go and look after people who really need it - such as the poor in third world countries. But, ooops, I almost forgot, those folks don't have any money to pay this company for their services. So, this company is just looking for a market. That is all it is.
 

SeaBreeze

Endlessly Groovin'
Joined
Mar 19, 2012
Location
USA
I didn't know about this wonderful program, these folks are a God-send! How generous of them to help us old people get organized and take care of ourselves, with our brains being so scattered, we're hopeless on our own, really, let's just admit it. What a blessing...they can lead me to not only to become a physically healthier human being, but one who's also complete mentally and emotionally.

I would happily use any steroids or hormones that these fine folks recommend, they seem to sincerely have nothing but my health in mind. I put my faith in them to make the best senior life for me that I can possible have. :sentimental: Thank goodness some of their members are doctors, I have complete confidence that I will be given all the special drugs needed to turn my life around, these people are experts with prescription medications.

$4,000 is such a small price to pay to be taken under their wing and shown the 'right' way to do things. I'm sure any additional fees are a bargain, even if expensive, you know...you get what you pay for! You won't have to worry about dying from fat wallet disease anymore either...S..C..A..M..:greedy_dollars:
 

SifuPhil

Resident Nutcase
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
Original Poster
Good grief. My grandpa's attitude towards life was: Chin up and carry on. Why do we need to be looked after all the time? Why can't we be left alone? We are going to die anyways. So, a little peace and quiet along the way is my preference. My suggestion is that they go and look after people who really need it - such as the poor in third world countries. But, ooops, I almost forgot, those folks don't have any money to pay this company for their services. So, this company is just looking for a market. That is all it is.
Well, it IS a service business, so I suppose they DO have the right to expect people to pay for that service. They aren't a non-profit charity group, so I don't really see that they have to go to a third-world country where the chief problem is not decreasing testosterone but increasing political upheaval.

I agree with the "looking after" part - we seem to have largely become a society that needs cradle-to-grave nannying.

I didn't know about this wonderful program, these folks are a God-send! How generous of them to help us old people get organized and take care of ourselves, with our brains being so scattered, we're hopeless on our own, really, let's just admit it. What a blessing...they can lead me to not only to become a physically healthier human being, but one who's also complete mentally and emotionally.

I would happily use any steroids or hormones that these fine folks recommend, they seem to sincerely have nothing but my health in mind. I put my faith in them to make the best senior life for me that I can possible have. :sentimental: Thank goodness some of their members are doctors, I have complete confidence that I will be given all the special drugs needed to turn my life around, these people are experts with prescription medications.

$4,000 is such a small price to pay to be taken under their wing and shown the 'right' way to do things. I'm sure any additional fees are a bargain, even if expensive, you know...you get what you pay for! You won't have to worry about dying from fat wallet disease anymore either...S..C..A..M..:greedy_dollars:
What Seabreeze said:playful:
Ladies, excuse me while I go and change into some dry clothes - it seems Sea's dripping sarcasm has soaked me. :D
 

Going Down Swinging

New member
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Ignorance is Bliss...and foolish

Ladies and gentlemen,

I have read a lot of ignorant sarcasm in discussing Cenegenics. This company practices age management , not age organization and they are not a nanny service. What they are doing is Bio-Identical hormone Relacement therapy. Before you roll your eyes and speak with a uneducated , closed mind you should know what this actually is. They do a very lengthy and compley blood screening. Something a lot more comprehensive than your Family Doctor would ever do. When we get older certain things happen and our bodies naturally stop making things like estrogen, testosterone, HGH and many other things. The blood test results show them where the deficiencies are and where somethings are too high. They look at your comprehensive health and how it all works together. They measure thyroid function, vitamin levels, cardiac function, many key indicators to possible future healh issues that can be proactively corrected. Once they get this "Full Health picture" , they correct the imbalances by perscribing theraputic amounts of things your body naturally produces and needs and helps counteract and issues found. Your diet is even changed in a lot of instances. They really take a comprehensive look at your health and put things back to where they should be. Oh, and no "steriods". thats just silly. The only steriod would be testosterone, something you need anyway. I have been under the care of an age management Dr for a couple years now. I look and feel years younger. My wife is doing this with me and she has equally good results. I am 45 so maybe not as old as some of you on here but I started on this therapy and got back into the gym. I initially lost 30 pounds and then gained muscle because I am on a high protein diet and the testosterone helps build muscle. I have very low "T" as they say on TV and my Dr never caught it. My level shoul dhave been 600+ and I was at 75..very low. Just balancing your Testosterone back to where it needs to be will activate your metabolism , help muscles , give you energy and make you geel great. I am now in better shape than when I was 25. Now, I was very athletic and played college football but my bosy had gone downhill a lot. Now, I can outrun my 20 year old son and my bench press is around 400. Not bad for a 45 year old. I am muscular and have ab muscles. Sexual appetite and function is beck to where it was in my 20's, my skin looks years younger and I am in great health because its monitored closely. So, call it a scam all you want but it works and it does great things for your health. yes, its a bit pricy but Cenegenics is more expensive than most. I paid a total of around $1,000 to get started (including the bloood test). So $4,000 is high. I suggest looking around. This has been the best thing I have ever done. My father in law told me about it, he has been doing it for years. He is 65 and looks 50, acts younger and says he feels like a 30 year old. he is extremely active. I am a believer and have personal experience to back it up. I can honesly say, this is real science and not a scam. Like anything just do your homework and look for better deals. By the way, I am told all the time that I look 35 and younger women constantly flirt with me...I go to the beach, take off my shirt and look better than most. My kids are amazed and my wife is extremely happy ;). So people like seabreeze can be negative all they want. I guarentee that if I was sitting next to them at the beach they would only wish they looked as good as I do. I hug my Dr every time I go see her..she is a miracle worker and I have the peace of mind knowing I will have a long healthy, good quality life because of her and age management. Take the time to really look into this, you will not be sorry. For those that just want to grow old naturally, this is not for you but some of us want to go down swinging. Good luck all...
 

Going Down Swinging

New member
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
People in third world countries could care less about how they look and feel, they just want to survive. that why they die at such young ages. So, are we all to assume that you dedicated your talents, life and education to people in third world countries all your life. It must be difficult to give up making a good living here in the US and having just the simpelist of luxeries like air/heat , plenty of food, medical help and decent clothing and a roof over your head. I am impressed, you would give all that up. Thats a rare quality to do something so selfless and then wonder why others dont do the same. So, did you work with the Peace Corp, a religious based organization or did you just make your own life in a third would country by helping others that needed it? I can't imaging foregoing working for years and years to do selfish things like buy a decent home, provide for my children in a country like the US when others have so little , and of course making enough to retire one day. Yea, your way is so admirable and selfless.
 

Pricklypear

New member
Joined
Mar 4, 2013
Location
Desert Southwest USA
Well, I guess you told us a thing or two, Going Down Swinging. You are 45. I've got kids your age. I was in great shape at 45 too.

I'm glad you and your father-in-law look and feel great. But, before I sign up for Bio-Identical hormone Replacement therapy, I want to see the science behind it. Anecdotal evidence from someone I've never met doesn't work for me.
 

Going Down Swinging

New member
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
fkunsaw, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Congratulations on agreeing with ignorance. So using Elzee's logic "We are going to die anyway", what is the point of doing anything? why do to any doctor? Why try to eat healthy? Why exercise? Seriously? Ok, I realize there are those that just want to sit on the sofa, sit a bowl of popcorn on your gut like a table and watch you TV shows until you die. Hey, if thats your thing God speed. My and an increasing number of people realize we can be more healthy, we can feel younger, look younger. We can have a better quality of life and be more active. Your mentality just confuses me. Its likeyou are all just giving up on life and just dont care. I want more from life. I refuse to just wither away before my time. Its just hard for me to imagine people want that. I want to be able to play ball with my grandsons. Spend days in Disny world with the family without being "The old guy that everyone waits on" and the guy that gets tired and has to go to the room and nap...no, thats not me. For me growing old gracefully and willingly is not an option. I came into the world with a great family and great health, I still have that. I came in full of life and vigor, I still have that. I came in with a sense of curiosity, wonder and amazement and still have that. I came in with a sense of adventure and love of life, I still have that. I came in with no money and I worked hard and changed that, so I dont relate to your comment at all. You all sound sad and depressed. I wish you all luck.
 

Going Down Swinging

New member
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Pricklypear --- Good...at least you have the mindset that you need to look into it. An open mind, a dose of scepticism and the intelligence to do a little research are all noble qualities. I was skeptical at first too. I looked into it, read about it and then ask two Doctor friends of mine about it. They were both already doing it and told me more science behind it that I could comprehend. Im a Finance guy not a science guy. They convinced me to go talk to her, see what its all about and I am so glad I did. Just keep an open mind.. Thats all Im saying. Ive had great results...look into and decide for yourself if its for you. If not, then at least you were open minded enough to do your due diligence.
 

SifuPhil

Resident Nutcase
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
Original Poster
... For me growing old gracefully and willingly is not an option. I came into the world with a great family and great health, I still have that. I came in full of life and vigor, I still have that. I came in with a sense of curiosity, wonder and amazement and still have that. I came in with a sense of adventure and love of life, I still have that. I came in with no money and I worked hard and changed that ...
From a psychological viewpoint, I would think that anyone that feels so strongly and goes to such great lengths to disavow the natural process of aging - a process, by the way, that is going to get us ALL, sooner or later - is going to be hit all the harder when their time comes, much harder than someone who has led a "natural" life.

Because, let's face it - replacing hormones that you lose due to aging is NOT natural. Looked at from a certain perspective, you are cheating the house ... and the house ALWAYS wins.

I can understand a certain zest for life, a willingness to go the extra mile when it comes to healthy lifestyle. Diet and nutrition, supplements and vitamins, exercise, avoiding excesses of all kinds, regular medical check - ups - that's great, that's what anyone who wants to remain in peak physical health should do.

But by spitting in the face of natural aging one plays a dangerous game. The way I see it, Cenegenics has one ace in the hole, and that is their hormone replacement therapy. All the other stuff - the nutritional guidance, the exercise, the testing - you could accomplish on your own. But it's admittedly difficult to get your hands on what is normally illegal substances such as HGH for the purposes of "anti-aging", and their ability to slow the aging process is highly questionable.

One needs to consider these pros and cons when evaluating testosterone therapy:

Potential benefits

* Improve muscle mass and strength
* Increase bone mineral density
* Thicken body hair and skin
* Improve sexual desire
* Boost energy
* Decrease irritability and depression
* Improve cognitive function


Potential risks

* Cause skin reactions
* Cause fluid retention
* Cause baldness
* Cause or aggravate sleep apnea
* Stimulate noncancerous growth of the prostate and cause or worsen urinary symptoms
* Stimulate growth of prostate cancer that's already present
* Enlarge breasts
* Stimulate growth of breast cancer that's already present
* Cause testicle shrinkage
* Limit sperm production
* Stimulate excess blood production
* Cause acne

Again, mainly from a philosophical point of view but acknowledging all the potential physical drawbacks, trying to ignore natural aging by partaking in a regimen that is questionable at best and not fully understood is something we do at our own risk.
 

rkunsaw

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
fkunsaw, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Congratulations on agreeing with ignorance. So using Elzee's logic "We are going to die anyway", what is the point of doing anything? why do to any doctor? Why try to eat healthy? Why exercise? Seriously? Ok, I realize there are those that just want to sit on the sofa, sit a bowl of popcorn on your gut like a table and watch you TV shows until you die. Hey, if thats your thing God speed. My and an increasing number of people realize we can be more healthy, we can feel younger, look younger. We can have a better quality of life and be more active. Your mentality just confuses me. Its likeyou are all just giving up on life and just dont care. I want more from life. I refuse to just wither away before my time. Its just hard for me to imagine people want that. I want to be able to play ball with my grandsons. Spend days in Disny world with the family without being "The old guy that everyone waits on" and the guy that gets tired and has to go to the room and nap...no, thats not me. For me growing old gracefully and willingly is not an option. I came into the world with a great family and great health, I still have that. I came in full of life and vigor, I still have that. I came in with a sense of curiosity, wonder and amazement and still have that. I came in with a sense of adventure and love of life, I still have that. I came in with no money and I worked hard and changed that, so I dont relate to your comment at all. You all sound sad and depressed. I wish you all luck.
You are so completely wrong I don't know where to start.I'm 71 and probably healthier than you are. Most of us have enough sense to take care of ourselves. We've lived through countless ads for some "scientific breakthrough" or another. and were smart enough to keep our money in our pockets.
If you are 45 now did you know the odds are against you ever becoming as old as I am now? Think about it, You may not grow old gracefully. You may not even grow old.

So fork over your hard earned money if you want but stop trying to convince me to.
 

SeaBreeze

Endlessly Groovin'
Joined
Mar 19, 2012
Location
USA
@=Going Down Swinging;7286
I have read a lot of ignorant sarcasm in discussing Cenegenics. This company practices age management , not age organization and they are not a nanny service. What they are doing is Bio-Identical hormone Relacement therapy. Before you roll your eyes and speak with a uneducated , closed mind you should know what this actually is.

I'm amused by your extreme passion for this program. You should consider becoming a spokesperson for them, perhaps you can receive some discounted treatments. Respectfully, it is ignorant on your part to assume that others are either lacking in knowledge of hormone therapy, uneducated or close-minded.

They do a very lengthy and compley blood screening. Something a lot more comprehensive than your Family Doctor would ever do. When we get older certain things happen and our bodies naturally stop making things like estrogen, testosterone, HGH and many other things. The blood test results show them where the deficiencies are and where somethings are too high. They look at your comprehensive health and how it all works together. They measure thyroid function, vitamin levels, cardiac function, many key indicators to possible future healh issues that can be proactively corrected. Once they get this "Full Health picture" , they correct the imbalances by perscribing theraputic amounts of things your body naturally produces and needs and helps counteract and issues found. Your diet is even changed in a lot of instances. They really take a comprehensive look at your health and put things back to where they should be.

Anyone of us who care to do it, can get a "Full Health Picture", on our own, without being held by the hand and led through a expensive pre-planned system. Hormone, thyroid, cardiovascular, vitamin levels, etc. can be tested by a doctor or a naturopath. Nutritional, supplemental and exercise recommendations are also very commonly advised as treatments and preventatives.

Oh, and no "steriods". thats just silly. The only steriod would be testosterone, something you need anyway. I have been under the care of an age management Dr for a couple years now. I look and feel years younger. My wife is doing this with me and she has equally good results. I am 45 so maybe not as old as some of you on here but I started on this therapy and got back into the gym. I initially lost 30 pounds and then gained muscle because I am on a high protein diet and the testosterone helps build muscle.

Eating a healthy whole foods diet, supplementing and exercising makes many people look and feel younger. For $12 per month, I have access to a local fitness gym which offers cardio, weights and other ways to burn fat and build muscle. It's wiser not to resort to hormones or steroids.

I have very low "T" as they say on TV and my Dr never caught it. My level shoul dhave been 600+ and I was at 75..very low. Just balancing your Testosterone back to where it needs to be will activate your metabolism , help muscles , give you energy and make you geel great. I am now in better shape than when I was 25.

There are more natural ways to build your testosterone, and exercise is one of them http://www.energytimes.com/pages/departments/1102/suppsavvy1102.html. Ways much safer than testosterone or human growth hormone therapy. Taking hormones or steroids may lead to rises in LDL cholesterol, high blood pressure, elevated liver enzymes, liver or kidney disease, etc. HGH can accelerate the growth of cancerous cells or tumors that already may in your body...ones not yet dectected with testing.

Now, I was very athletic and played college football but my bosy had gone downhill a lot. Now, I can outrun my 20 year old son and my bench press is around 400. Not bad for a 45 year old. I am muscular and have ab muscles. Sexual appetite and function is beck to where it was in my 20's, my skin looks years younger and I am in great health because its monitored closely.

I'm surprised that you are in such poor shape at the age of forty five, we're in our sixties and haven't had issues with sexual appetite, etc. My skin looks healthy and naturally aged. My muscles are strong, and we all have ab muscles.


By the way, I am told all the time that I look 35 and younger women constantly flirt with me...I go to the beach, take off my shirt and look better than most. My kids are amazed and my wife is extremely happy ;).

Lol, well, I hope your wife is half as 'happy' as you are. You're quite pleased with yourself, good for you!


So people like seabreeze can be negative all they want. I guarentee that if I was sitting next to them at the beach they would only wish they looked as good as I do.

You're precious! ;) I can guarantee that I would not want to look like you at the beach.


I hug my Dr every time I go see her..she is a miracle worker and I have the peace of mind knowing I will have a long healthy, good quality life because of her and age management. Take the time to really look into this, you will not be sorry. For those that just want to grow old naturally, this is not for you but some of us want to go down swinging. Good luck all...

Hope you and your doctor share many more hugs in the future, I'm sure she looks forward to them from all her appreciative patients. :dollar: The thing that bothers me about your posts, is how angry you sound. You may want to have the doc review your hormone dose, sometimes they, especially testosterone, can amplify rage or depression. I wish you well, and hope you go down swinging, but hopefully not at the end of a rope. Years ago, a young co-worker of mine was in his twenties, handsome, well educated, popular with everyone ended up committing suicide after using testosterone and steroids when he started to pursue bodybuilding...what a loss, sad day for all.

A word to the wise...it's okay if people disagree with you, that doesn't make you any less of a person. It's emotionally healthy to keep an open mind to other opinions too. I wish you a long and healthy future regardless of your age, and BTW, welcome to the forum! :)
 

Lily

New member
Joined
Mar 13, 2013
I am also of the persuasion that I want to live fully to the end; so much so that I am now finishing a masters degree in clinical counseling at the age of 61. I intend to have a full practice so am invested in continuing to care for my health. My clinical specialty is the incarcerated and severely mentally ill so this second career is about significance and not financial gain (the first career was raising 5 children; one with a mental health disability). I have been thinking for awhile that I need some type of hormonal rebalancing but had never heard of anything like that. I have come to understand disease as an emergent property of less than optimal conditions. The use of growth hormone would only be needed in extreme cases but fine tuning the delicate and intricate interactive symphony of the endocrine system I believe is entirely appropriate. Cenegenics sounds like they are on the right track but are out of reach for my financial resources. I'm wondering if there are any reliable alternatives or if Cenegenics would be willing to offer only the hormone analysis portion?
 

SifuPhil

Resident Nutcase
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
Original Poster
Hi Lily, welcome to the forum and congratulations on your work toward the counseling degree!

Unfortunately Cenegenics does NOT offer the hormone analysis as a separate modality; they require everyone to be in the total program. The thing is, I believe that a person could implement all of the other parts of the program (because basically what they're offering is concierge medicine, the personalization of the conventional medical paradigm) by hiring a life coach, nutritionist, personal trainer and such, at a greatly discounted rate.

That would leave the medical aspect, and there you could "hire" a proficient GP, one who believes in and practices a more holistic mode of medicine, as a sort of overseer of the entire medical phase of your program. You would rely upon them to put you in touch with the testing labs, specialists, etc. needed to mimic the Cenegenics program. The toughest part would be having access to the hormones (actually, the toughest part would probably be getting your insurance to cover this program, but that's another thread) but even there topical prescriptions are quite common these days so it shouldn't be an insurmountable problem - you would just need the right doctor to write the 'scrip.

I suspect that all of this could be done for less than half the advertised price of the "start-up" phase (the initial intake-testing) and also maintained at a similar discount. In fact, I've been playing around with the idea of writing a book something along the lines of "The Poor Person's Guide to Age Management", wherein these "discounted" methods would be researched and laid out for the reader.

One other thought: Cenegenics, like many other age-management programs, seems to be focused mainly on men and their fear of decreasing testosterone levels. I suspect they're playing to those fears instead of to a more balanced model of aging. The simple fact that good nutrition and exercise does wonders for probably 75% of the cases is buried under the "wonder drug" approach. I might be wrong in this - as I said, it's just my opinion - but the evidence seems to point in that direction.
 

Going Down Swinging

New member
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Yes, the house always wins in the end but why lay down and be old before you have to? I know that eventually I will die. Thank God the people in my family generally are healty and live long lives. No, restoring your hormone levels are not natural. Neither is any type of medication or surgery. Its not natural to take something to lower your blood pressure either. The arguement that , this process is wrong because it is just not how its been done inthe past is just not a very good arguement to make. Every day new advances are made in medicine. The average life expectancy has gone up significantly over the past 40 years because of all these "non natural" advances. I understand what your saying and you seem like a very intelligent person. You have to realize that the way things are done today does not mean there is not a better way tomorrow. Thats all Im trying to say, I just want people to have an open mind.

Also, you can not do this on your own. My Doctor, which is a young doctor, does not test as thoroughly. Most do not simply because of insurance coverage. Insurance will not cover most of the test so thats all out of pocket. Your physician will not recommend test for which he/she will not be paid to read. Medicare willnot cover it so most doctors dont see the point. A lot of doctors dont even have the specialized knowledge base to request for or read the test. So sure, you can go to your doctor and get your normal test , you can diet and exercise but thats only about 5 to 10 % of what BHRT is about.

I did like your pros and cons. Well done , its nice to see you have done some reading. I will go through your cons.

1. anything can cause skin reactions. Even changing clothes detergent. If you have reactions you stop.
2. If youeat too much sodium you get fluid retention. I know so many people on fluid pills that dont take anything that causes it. A lot of Blood pressure medication has a fluid pill built in. this is not a big deal.
3. Baldness? lol..old age causes baldness as well. Its like this, male pattern baldness is going to happen to you if baldness genetically runs in your family. Testosterone doesnt cause it, it speeds up the process. I'm a little thin in that back, I can deal with it. It is called "age management" its not for the young and anyone over 40 is target to lose some hair.
4. I dont have apnea. Have you ever read the side effects of most percription drugs> the list is long and scary. This is grasping at straws trying to make a point. Sure , it may cause many things. If you get bad side effects....stop.
5. My doctor tested for cancer, prostate enzymes, liver enzymes, liver function, renal function and so many other things. If I had anything she wouldnt have started therapy. Anyone can get bad stuff. Go to your doctor once per year and get that checked. I do. Do you live your life avoiding everything that the internet says causes cancer? hundreds of day to day things are said to cause cancer. You cant live scared. Cooking hamburgers or any meat on a grill is said to cause cancer..im not going to throw away my grill anytime soon.
6. Enlarge breast. I assume your talking about gynecomastia in men? A rise in your estrogen levels caused by a lack of testosterone cause this. Not testosterone. Higher testosterone will not increase breast size in me.
7. Get your check ups and do all your testing before you start. If you have any form of cancer, you do not need to be on BHRT.
8. Testicle shrinkage - sure when you take testosterone as a man with normal test levels , say to bulk up muscles. It causes your testicles to stop production because your getting it from an external source. So the testicles will shrink some. Some...not a huge amount. however, if you have low test, obviously your body isnt working well and your testicles have already shrunk. If your percribed test you needed test and your testicles have already shrunk.. so if you dont need it, dont take it. Again, a good arguement for not doing it yourself.
9. Limit Sperm production. -- Do you really think any man that is doing "age Management" is concerned with sperm production? I got a vasectomy years ago. I could care less about sperm and most men over 50 could care less as well. BUT, if you are concerned. there is a drug you can take that counter acts the testical shrinkage and restores sperm production. Its that easy.
10. I get my blood tested twice a year. I'm a little iron deficient so it hasent increased my production. However, if this happens you just go get phlebotomized. Your doctor should keep up with his and adjust things to keeep this from happening.
11. Acne -- again, its on the list of possible side effects. I challenge everyone to look at the possible side effects of any birth control drug and let me know how a little acne compares. I have gotten a little. Its bump on my shoulder, a bump on my back ever so often. No like you will go full teenager. If you have a reaction, talk to your doctor.

I agree with the do at your own risk statement. Just like anything in life there are potential rick. Driving a car for instance. Eating a lot of red meat, alcohol consumption. However, if your doctor is monitoring your levels , he/she will see if there is something going on and can make adjustments or stop . I do not recommend anyone take any type of hormones unless they are under the care of a doctor.
 

Lily

New member
Joined
Mar 13, 2013
Thank you Sir! Someone else on the forum has given me a push in the right direction and I've identified a local practitioner to investigate for the hormone assessment piece. Cenegenics does market to the higher income bracket but in all fairness people in those brackets need concierge service with the responsibilities they typically have and are simply being asked to pay for it. I was very sick in my 20's and told I would be disabled the rest of my life. I thought,"I'm not even 30; I don't think so." That began a quest that lead me to revamping my lifestyle with improved nutrition, exercise, and supplementation. It was a slow but steady 7 year climb to health and no disability. I'll even attach a picture if I can figure it out to show what I've accomplished. Not bad for a 61 year old lady! But now it is time for the hormonal piece. I intend to get a full return on my investment in graduate school.
 

SifuPhil

Resident Nutcase
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
Original Poster
All well-said, GDS - I think we're closing in on the middle-ground here. Let me take a few of your points individually ...

Yes, the house always wins in the end but why lay down and be old before you have to? I know that eventually I will die. Thank God the people in my family generally are healty and live long lives. No, restoring your hormone levels are not natural. Neither is any type of medication or surgery. Its not natural to take something to lower your blood pressure either. The arguement that , this process is wrong because it is just not how its been done inthe past is just not a very good arguement to make. Every day new advances are made in medicine. The average life expectancy has gone up significantly over the past 40 years because of all these "non natural" advances. I understand what your saying and you seem like a very intelligent person. You have to realize that the way things are done today does not mean there is not a better way tomorrow. Thats all Im trying to say, I just want people to have an open mind.
I don't advocate just giving up - I'm sorry if I gave that impression. Certainly we should Go Down Swinging. :cool:

Open mind is good, I agree. When I said it wasn't "natural" I meant that, looking at the big picture, it seems we're supposed to have a certain average number of years on the planet. Anything that alters that could be seen as being "un-natural", no matter how GOOD it appears to be. There have been many discussions over the years on quality of life, and that's just one of my concerns - that we might live to 125 but our minds are shot to hell. I don't see that Cenegenics addresses that concern except in the most roundabout way (physical fitness=improved brain power). Now if they came up with a new "smart cocktail" and added it into the mix maybe that would change my opinion ...

Also, you can not do this on your own. My Doctor, which is a young doctor, does not test as thoroughly. Most do not simply because of insurance coverage. Insurance will not cover most of the test so thats all out of pocket. Your physician will not recommend test for which he/she will not be paid to read. Medicare willnot cover it so most doctors dont see the point. A lot of doctors dont even have the specialized knowledge base to request for or read the test. So sure, you can go to your doctor and get your normal test , you can diet and exercise but thats only about 5 to 10 % of what BHRT is about.
But wouldn't that depend upon your doctor? I mean, sure, the majority of doctors aren't going to be interested in hearing your age-management ideas - they're too busy meeting their malpractice insurance payments. They want a revolving-door medical office.

But I'm convinced that there ARE a handful of doctors that would be willing to get onboard with such a program. You just have to spend the time and effort to find them. Even if it comes down to an under-the-table deal, hey, it would be worth it to slip them a little extra - a "retainer", if you will - to have them push your case. Part of the problem with modern medicine is the insurance industry: they've severely tied the hands of doctors and forced them into practicing a mode of medicine that isn't really to their liking. They probably got into the field because they wanted to help people, not do paperwork. So relying upon insurance to help you with age-management medicine is a losing game - I think a large chunk of change is going to have to come from our OWN pockets.

I did like your pros and cons. Well done , its nice to see you have done some reading. I will go through your cons.
Thanks!

1. anything can cause skin reactions. Even changing clothes detergent. If you have reactions you stop.
2. If youeat too much sodium you get fluid retention. I know so many people on fluid pills that dont take anything that causes it. A lot of Blood pressure medication has a fluid pill built in. this is not a big deal.
3. Baldness? lol..old age causes baldness as well. Its like this, male pattern baldness is going to happen to you if baldness genetically runs in your family. Testosterone doesnt cause it, it speeds up the process. I'm a little thin in that back, I can deal with it. It is called "age management" its not for the young and anyone over 40 is target to lose some hair.
4. I dont have apnea. Have you ever read the side effects of most percription drugs> the list is long and scary. This is grasping at straws trying to make a point. Sure , it may cause many things. If you get bad side effects....stop.
5. My doctor tested for cancer, prostate enzymes, liver enzymes, liver function, renal function and so many other things. If I had anything she wouldnt have started therapy. Anyone can get bad stuff. Go to your doctor once per year and get that checked. I do. Do you live your life avoiding everything that the internet says causes cancer? hundreds of day to day things are said to cause cancer. You cant live scared. Cooking hamburgers or any meat on a grill is said to cause cancer..im not going to throw away my grill anytime soon.
6. Enlarge breast. I assume your talking about gynecomastia in men? A rise in your estrogen levels caused by a lack of testosterone cause this. Not testosterone. Higher testosterone will not increase breast size in me.
7. Get your check ups and do all your testing before you start. If you have any form of cancer, you do not need to be on BHRT.
8. Testicle shrinkage - sure when you take testosterone as a man with normal test levels , say to bulk up muscles. It causes your testicles to stop production because your getting it from an external source. So the testicles will shrink some. Some...not a huge amount. however, if you have low test, obviously your body isnt working well and your testicles have already shrunk. If your percribed test you needed test and your testicles have already shrunk.. so if you dont need it, dont take it. Again, a good arguement for not doing it yourself.
9. Limit Sperm production. -- Do you really think any man that is doing "age Management" is concerned with sperm production? I got a vasectomy years ago. I could care less about sperm and most men over 50 could care less as well. BUT, if you are concerned. there is a drug you can take that counter acts the testical shrinkage and restores sperm production. Its that easy.
10. I get my blood tested twice a year. I'm a little iron deficient so it hasent increased my production. However, if this happens you just go get phlebotomized. Your doctor should keep up with his and adjust things to keeep this from happening.
11. Acne -- again, its on the list of possible side effects. I challenge everyone to look at the possible side effects of any birth control drug and let me know how a little acne compares. I have gotten a little. Its bump on my shoulder, a bump on my back ever so often. No like you will go full teenager. If you have a reaction, talk to your doctor.
Wow - well-done!

I admit that I included a lot of the boilerplate disclaimers in my list, so yeah a bit of common sense would tell us to stop taking any med that causes adverse reactions. But unlike stopping taking an aspirin a day, stopping hormone therapy has many complications. I think Cenegenics claims it uses bioidentical hormones, which is a good thing, but even with those stopping hormone treatment cold-turkey is dangerous. The body has developed a reliance upon these new hormones, and cutting off the supply is going to put great stressors on the body. You just have to be ready for these effects and know how to deal with them.

One thing I have to disagree with, and it's a minor point, is about gynecomastia. I've been in a lot of gyms, both as customer and trainer/manager, and the heart-break (!) of what they call "bitch tits" is just all too real for the boys that are on the juice.

I agree with the do at your own risk statement. Just like anything in life there are potential rick. Driving a car for instance. Eating a lot of red meat, alcohol consumption. However, if your doctor is monitoring your levels , he/she will see if there is something going on and can make adjustments or stop . I do not recommend anyone take any type of hormones unless they are under the care of a doctor.
Certainly a doctor's expertise and access to specialists is needed for monitoring your hormone treatment. All I'm saying is that Cenegenics has made a package deal out of what is really just bits and pieces of an age-management program. They're a "one-stop-shopping solution" for all your old-age needs!

But just like our computers, there is more than one way to get the complete package: the majority of people haven't the knowledge to do anything but to buy off-the-shelf. This may please most of them, but it's never a really custom-made fit. A small percentage of people will order their individual components online and build that sucker themselves. It will perform exactly as they planned and if something goes wrong they know how to fix it, unlike the poor BestBuy customers that are in bondage to the store's less-than-expert "experts".

It's the same with Cenegenics. For those who can afford it, it might be a good deal because everything you need is in one place. They offer ease of access and remove the work of finding individual practitioners as well as the problem of getting the hormones. But someone who has the drive to be in COMPLETE control of their life would be much happier "doing it themselves" - picking up the best individual components they can find, putting them together, and staying in charge of their own bodies instead of paying some stranger to take that same level of interest in you.
 

Going Down Swinging

New member
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
@=Going Down Swinging;7286
I have read a lot of ignorant sarcasm in discussing Cenegenics. This company practices age management , not age organization and they are not a nanny service. What they are doing is Bio-Identical hormone Relacement therapy. Before you roll your eyes and speak with a uneducated , closed mind you should know what this actually is.

I'm amused by your extreme passion for this program. You should consider becoming a spokesperson for them, perhaps you can receive some discounted treatments. Respectfully, it is ignorant on your part to assume that others are either lacking in knowledge of hormone therapy, uneducated or close-minded.

I'm so glad I can amuse you..lol Yes, I do have passion for it. I am amazed at how I feel and look. I am more amazed at how my father in law at 65 looks and acts. So, yes, I have seen results personally and so I believe in it. I don't say EVERYONE is Ignorant but it is easy to pick out the ignorance and the closed mindedness in what people say, how they say it. Your obviously very intelligent and have done some reading on the subject. A lot probably because of your irritation at my aggressiveness, amusing passion and the buttons that I push and thats my intent. I'm sure your very aware that this is a fairly new specialty and most people are ignorant of this and thats completely different from calling them stupid.

They do a very lengthy and compley blood screening. Something a lot more comprehensive than your Family Doctor would ever do. When we get older certain things happen and our bodies naturally stop making things like estrogen, testosterone, HGH and many other things. The blood test results show them where the deficiencies are and where somethings are too high. They look at your comprehensive health and how it all works together. They measure thyroid function, vitamin levels, cardiac function, many key indicators to possible future healh issues that can be proactively corrected. Once they get this "Full Health picture" , they correct the imbalances by perscribing theraputic amounts of things your body naturally produces and needs and helps counteract and issues found. Your diet is even changed in a lot of instances. They really take a comprehensive look at your health and put things back to where they should be.

Anyone of us who care to do it, can get a "Full Health Picture", on our own, without being held by the hand and led through a expensive pre-planned system. Hormone, thyroid, cardiovascular, vitamin levels, etc. can be tested by a doctor or a naturopath. Nutritional, supplemental and exercise recommendations are also very commonly advised as treatments and preventatives.

Unless your willing to pay for a lot of testing thats "not ordinary testing" and you find a GP that knows enough about this sort of thig to even know what to test for it would be quit impossible to do this yourself. I agree that anyone can eat properly and exercise on your own. Its the science part, knowing what to test for , what the levels are supposed to be and how to get things right thats the most important part in all of this. If you do know of a GP that can do this, GREAT. If your well read enough to know nutrition, even better. So , sure you can piece together your health, nutritional, naturopath & expert on suppliments, if you can find all these people and will take the time to organize it all yourself. Nothing wrong with that. I just prefer to have one person do it for me. I am not pushing the "boxed approach" or "systems" , its the end result thats important, not the path there. So do it yourself with multiple experts or one specialist.

Oh, and no "steriods". thats just silly. The only steriod would be testosterone, something you need anyway. I have been under the care of an age management Dr for a couple years now. I look and feel years younger. My wife is doing this with me and she has equally good results. I am 45 so maybe not as old as some of you on here but I started on this therapy and got back into the gym. I initially lost 30 pounds and then gained muscle because I am on a high protein diet and the testosterone helps build muscle.

Eating a healthy whole foods diet, supplementing and exercising makes many people look and feel younger. For $12 per month, I have access to a local fitness gym which offers cardio, weights and other ways to burn fat and build muscle. It's wiser not to resort to hormones or steroids.

I played college football so I know how to work out but hired a certified personal trainer and I learned so much. I am intelligent to knwo I'm not an expert in everything and can get better results asking help from one. I agre with the steriods comment. They are illegal and you shouldnt take them. Low testosterone is a medical condition that can be treated just like you would if you had high blood pressure. So saying it best to not take something that helps with a medical conditional is irresponsible. Sure you may fully know what your talking about but for other reading these post, they may see that and take it to heart. if you have low T , go get it taken care of.




I have very low "T" as they say on TV and my Dr never caught it. My level shoul dhave been 600+ and I was at 75..very low. Just balancing your Testosterone back to where it needs to be will activate your metabolism , help muscles , give you energy and make you geel great. I am now in better shape than when I was 25.

There are more natural ways to build your testosterone, and exercise is one of them http://www.energytimes.com/pages/departments/1102/suppsavvy1102.html. Ways much safer than testosterone or human growth hormone therapy. Taking hormones or steroids may lead to rises in LDL cholesterol, high blood pressure, elevated liver enzymes, liver or kidney disease, etc. HGH can accelerate the growth of cancerous cells or tumors that already may in your body...ones not yet dectected with testing.

Sure if your slightly below the level where you need to be, there are natural ways to help elevate your test levels. if your level is significantly low, there is an issue and eating the right things and exercise will not correct your problem. If you have significantly high blood pressure , eating less sodium will not make it all better. If you have a medical condition, get medical tretment. If you physican doesnt know to watch and regularly test for all the possible side effects then you need a new doctor.

Now, I was very athletic and played college football but my bosy had gone downhill a lot. Now, I can outrun my 20 year old son and my bench press is around 400. Not bad for a 45 year old. I am muscular and have ab muscles. Sexual appetite and function is beck to where it was in my 20's, my skin looks years younger and I am in great health because its monitored closely.

I'm surprised that you are in such poor shape at the age of forty five, we're in our sixties and haven't had issues with sexual appetite, etc. My skin looks healthy and naturally aged. My muscles are strong, and we all have ab muscles.

LOL...like you at 45 had the performance , muscle mass, tone, strength, speed and agility that I currently have. Unless you were a college , professional or olympic athlete, your just being ridiculous. Poor shape? I'm 6 ft tall, have 8% body fat (yes 8%) and weigh 215 lbs. I can out sprint my 19 year old son that is currently playing college football and am stronger than he is. This drives him nuts. He is much smaller than I, he is a safety and I was a line backer. But I am in unbelievable shape so you to say that im in poor shape at 45 is laughable. Sure we all have ab muscles, but mine isnt covered with a layer of fat. I have a visible six pack, we dont all have that. My test was really low and that will destroy sexual appetite. I think its great you havent had issues with that. I hope you never do. Strong muscles are a relative term. Strong compared to who? what? a normally aging 60 year old that is fairly active? or a college football player of 19? how about as compared to any 20 to 40 year old athlete that works out with weights 4 times per week in your city?

By the way, I am told all the time that I look 35 and younger women constantly flirt with me...I go to the beach, take off my shirt and look better than most. My kids are amazed and my wife is extremely happy ;).

Lol, well, I hope your wife is half as 'happy' as you are. You're quite pleased with yourself, good for you!

My wife seems very happy. She is a criminal defense lawyer that has quit to go back to school to get her nurse practitioners degree and may possibly go to medical school to specialize in ....Age management. She is thrilled with her results and loves how I look. Yes, I am very pleased with myself. I have worked very hard on my diet and in the gym to acheive my results. But thanks for being concerned for her happiness. So is person not supposed to like themselves, not be happy with their successes in life?


So people like seabreeze can be negative all they want. I guarentee that if I was sitting next to them at the beach they would only wish they looked as good as I do.

You're precious! ;) I can guarantee that I would not want to look like you at the beach.

Precious? LMAO..wow thanks! thats the most sarcastic compliment I have ever receved. It really seems like your a negative person that is a bit jealous of the happiness and success of others to the point you seem a bit bitter. Yea, I can see why you wouldnt want to look like me. I mean seriously, what man would like women flirting with him constantly, telling him how great his body looks, the smiles, the.."flirty sayings like, Oh don't put your shirt back on, your the reason we come to the pool" Yea, i can understand your point. Why would any man want that? I KNOW you wouldnt like hearing from your college age children that their college female friends think your "hot". And when you go to a school function with your younger kids, the moms all sit around you. Yea, that would be terrible wouldnt it. Also, who wants to look in the mirror and just get a great sense of satisfaction and how far you have come and how hard you have worked. I was fat at one point, weighed 280 pounds. I keep old pictures to keep me on track. So I'm glad you dont want to look like me, not like too many do or could anyway. Its just funny to me that you have no idea what I look like but you make such rude , bitter, sarchastic comments like that.


I hug my Dr every time I go see her..she is a miracle worker and I have the peace of mind knowing I will have a long healthy, good quality life because of her and age management. Take the time to really look into this, you will not be sorry. For those that just want to grow old naturally, this is not for you but some of us want to go down swinging. Good luck all...

Hope you and your doctor share many more hugs in the future, I'm sure she looks forward to them from all her appreciative patients. :dollar: The thing that bothers me about your posts, is how angry you sound. You may want to have the doc review your hormone dose, sometimes they, especially testosterone, can amplify rage or depression. I wish you well, and hope you go down swinging, but hopefully not at the end of a rope. Years ago, a young co-worker of mine was in his twenties, handsome, well educated, popular with everyone ended up committing suicide after using testosterone and steroids when he started to pursue bodybuilding...what a loss, sad day for all.

A word to the wise...it's okay if people disagree with you, that doesn't make you any less of a person. It's emotionally healthy to keep an open mind to other opinions too. I wish you a long and healthy future regardless of your age, and BTW, welcome to the forum! :)
Again there you go throwing stones. You dish out sarchasm and negativity and yet talk about me and my issues? I can have a decent conversation but when someone like yourself goes out of their way to be a jerk then yea, I can get a bit preterbed. What bothers me about you is your sense of superiority, and how natural being a jerk seems to come to you. Your a bit of a bully that hides behind the sarcasm. Your very passive aggressive and that is a sign of deeper emotional issues. Thanks for your concern but my doctor checks my levels and they are in a great range, thanks for the suggestion. I love life, love my wife and kids and would never be so cowardly or selfish as to harm myself. Ive never even considered it but thansk for your concern. It really bothers you that there are happy people that like themselves doesnt it? IS your like so bad that this is a foreign concept? I love how you used the guy that is body building to tell the suicide story. Yea, you have to watch those guys in great shape, they tend to kill themselves.

I love a good debate as much as the next person. I just dont like your passive aggressive, sarcastic negativity. I dont like the fact that you constantly throw stones and then twist it to say that its all me that dont like differing opinions. You need to do some self reflection. You have a difficult time accepting or even considering the opinions of others that conflicts with yours. Even if that opinion is fact based on personal experience. I just told my story, my results, my experiences and you could not stand that it not only differs from your "growing old gracefull" mentailty but that I am really happy with myself and my results. That seems to really bother you. So maybe its not me that is not accepting of the opinions of others. Oh my God I know it seems so highly unlikely but it might just be you.

I also truly wish you great health, long life and happiness for you and your family. I never wish bad things on people even if they are arrogant. Thanks for the welcome, I feel it has been baptism by fire...lol but still interesting and fun..
 

SeaBreeze

Endlessly Groovin'
Joined
Mar 19, 2012
Location
USA
Also, you can not do this on your own. My Doctor, which is a young doctor, does not test as thoroughly. Most do not simply because of insurance coverage. Insurance will not cover most of the test so thats all out of pocket. Your physician will not recommend test for which he/she will not be paid to read. Medicare willnot cover it so most doctors dont see the point. A lot of doctors dont even have the specialized knowledge base to request for or read the test.
Unless the Cenegenics program is covered under your medical insurance, that would mean you have to pay the full charges for their vitamin/hormone testing anyway. A cheaper option would be to go to a Naturopath or Holistic doctor for the necessary tests, and perhaps even get treated with a more natural alternative to these hormones and steroids. :positive:
 

Going Down Swinging

New member
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Iam really enjoying our jousting by the way. I amy seem angry but at the end of the day, I would gladly sit down with you and buy you a beer..please take that into consideration on my last post.lol I love a good fight...and I dont hold a grudge.

With THAT disclaimer said... Bitch tits are an issue. I have done research and consulted medical professionals (my doctor and an internist) and a few body builders (my brother in law is a professional body builder) becaue my son started taking this suppliment , a "pro-hormone" to gain muscle mass and strength. A lot of these pro-hormones are so incredibly close to the molecular structure of anabolic steriods that there may only be a molecule placement difference. This tiny differenc emeasn the difference between legal and illegal. HE started getting bitch tits and I immediately told him to stop what ever he was taking (thats when he showed me what he was doing) and took him to the doctor. These products, just like steriods uses up your testosterone like water. they deplete it and the nature of these drugs including anabolics creates an abundance of estrogen in your system. Thsi over abundanc eof estrogen caused from the steriods and depletion of testosterone is what causes the breast enlargement. Its possible the guys you ask just knew if you took stuff you get bitch tits and didnt knwo the actual science behind it. its really interesting stuff. The doctor wanted to do surgery on him. The professional body builders sold me a drug that reduces/eliminates estrogen from your system. He took it and over a period of two months it was gone.

So i think we agree on most things here...I will restate I am not an advocate for using "Cenegenics" . I went to a specialist that does the same thing and spent a LOT less. Ceneginics is the Mercedes when a Nissan will do the same thing just a lot more cost effectivly.
 

SeaBreeze

Endlessly Groovin'
Joined
Mar 19, 2012
Location
USA
Again there you go throwing stones. You dish out sarchasm and negativity and yet talk about me and my issues? I can have a decent conversation but when someone like yourself goes out of their way to be a jerk then yea, I can get a bit preterbed. What bothers me about you is your sense of superiority, and how natural being a jerk seems to come to you. Your a bit of a bully that hides behind the sarcasm. Your very passive aggressive and that is a sign of deeper emotional issues.

I love how you used the guy that is body building to tell the suicide story. Yea, you have to watch those guys in great shape, they tend to kill themselves. You have a difficult time accepting or even considering the opinions of others that conflicts with yours. Even if that opinion is fact based on personal experience. I just told my story, my results, my experiences and you could not stand that it not only differs from your "growing old gracefull" mentailty but that I am really happy with myself and my results. That seems to really bother you. So maybe its not me that is not accepting of the opinions of others. Oh my God I know it seems so highly unlikely but it might just be you.
I'm not the one who started posting on this forum by insinuating that a member(s) here were ignorant, uneducated and close-minded. I posted my opinion, sarcastic or not, it was my opinion that this program is a scam. You are the one who angrily reacted, because you disagreed...as opposed to just having a decent conversation about why you thought otherwise. Now you're name-calling (jerk), something I've never seen on this forum.

I have nothing against people being in shape, or bodybuilding. That was the only suicide case that I knew of personally, and had no secret reason for sharing it, other than noting the possible side effects of these drugs.

I'm very happy, positive and easy going and wish the best for others. You don't have to like me, nor I you. Life's too short to argue, count me out. I'm glad that you're happy and doing well. Let's just agree to disagree and continue to have a good day. :)
 

Going Down Swinging

New member
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Fair enough. I will apologize for the "jerk" comment. I generally do not resort to name calling. I went back and red my post and it was out of line. It wont happen again.

I stand my assessement that there is a lot of ignorance when it comes to age management. My patience wears thin with those that just throw out negative comments because they dont know anything about it and just dismiss something they know nothing about as a scam. Same goes for people that just accept thier fate as growing old, withering and dying well before their time. Vitality can last into the 90s. A 60 year old is the equivalent of a 45 year old 50 years ago. I just know so many people coule have a much better quality of life if they opened their mind. So , yea, I saw some comments that were made in ignorance so I called it what it is. Does that mean I think you or anyone here is dumb? no, not at all. Does it mean I think you or any one here is ignorant of all or even many things, no, I commented on the comments at hand.

I dont know you so I will not say that I dislike you personally because I dont. You didnt like things I said, I didnt like things you said and we called each other on it. I went a bit far and I admit that and correct my actions going forward. I also stick to what I said earlier. I did enjoy our debate. Its nice to debate someone that does a damned good job at intelligently and logically defends their positions.

You also have a great day.
 

Going Down Swinging

New member
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Just say no... I giggle like a 12 year old when I see it on TV. I can't actually imagine seeing someone use it..it would be too much.
 


Top