"If Fences Don't Work, Why Is There One Around The White House?"

[Davey Jones]

This guy makes a lot of sense...

CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER: Alright, here's what I've been on for years. You start with a fence. It's very simple. People say, 'Oh, fences don't work. You make a ladder.' Well, then you build two fences, triple strand fences. San Diego did that in the mid 90's and within a decade, the illegal immigration rate at that point was reduced by 90% and people ended up going through other places like Arizona.

If fences don't work, why is there one around the White House? If they don't work, why is it that the Israeli fence which separate Israel from the West Bank has cut down terror attacks within Israel by 99%. Fences work. Yes, there are parts of the border where you can't have a fence, fine. So you don't have it in those areas and you do heavy patrols. But there is no reason why a rich country like us cannot put a fence across -- a double fence, a triple fence and patrol it all the time. That would have a tremendous impact.

 

[MrJim]

The answer to the question is simple.

The fence around the WH & the one in Israel are heavily guarded by trained commandos with automatic weapons.

The US - Mexican border is some 2,000 miles long. Placing enough armed guards to guarantee no breaches along such an expanse & have them on duty 24/7/365 would be economically unfeasable.

It would cost more to pay the security costs than it would save by keeping illegals out.

A simple matter of economics.

But people like Krauthammer usually rely on those kind of sleight of hand arguments to make their case.

 

[WhatInThe]

Fences do work if you serious about actual security wether it be a fence and/or guards. A fence is part of the picture, not the whole picture.

 

[MrJim]

Sure a fence would help.

But you'd have to have enough armed guards along the fence to create a constant, uninterrupted line of sight so that there would be no part of it that went unwatched at any time.

Leave a weak spot & it will be exploited.

Given that the border in question stretches around 2,000 mi!es, we're talking about a LOT of guards.

All of whom demand good pay & benefits, etc., etc., etc.

Merely patrolling a fence doesn't do much, because as soon as the patrol passes by, anyone hiding behind a bush can just cross the border without getting caught. They've tried using infra red cameras, but electronic surveillance has proven to be unreliable & can also be defeated.

There is no easy, affordable solution.

Besides, I think the American business community wants the cheap labor illegal immigrants provide. They are a large part of the reason we can still afford to eat. Americans just will not do field harvesting work no matter how much you offer to pay them.

Imagine how much your grocery bill would be if Americans making $20 an hour with health care benefits, paid vacations, sick leave, workman's comp, time & a half overtime pay & all the other perks our workers are used to, were the ones picking your produce.

Guest worker passes are what is needed.

 

[RCynic]

The answer to the question is simple.

The fence around the WH & the one in Israel are heavily guarded by trained commandos with automatic weapons.

The US - Mexican border is some 2,000 miles long. Placing enough armed guards to guarantee no breaches along such an expanse & have them on duty 24/7/365 would be economically unfeasable.

It would cost more to pay the security costs than it would save by keeping illegals out.

A simple matter of economics.

But people like Krauthammer usually rely on those kind of sleight of hand arguments to make their case.

So have you calculated what we save by admitting 11,000,000 immigrants in terms of educational, medical, social care and jobs lost, compared to just manning that fence with a bit of security? We have bases all over the world...close some of them and put the returning soldiers to works as civilian guards at the border. We employ vets and keep out illegals. It's just a matter of priorities. Clearly someone believes flooding the country with future democratic voters is more important.

For those of you inclined to conspiracies, there's this. Enjoy.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/obamas-agenda-overwhelm-system

 

[Misty]

So have you calculated what we save by admitting 11,000,000 immigrants in terms of educational, medical, social care and jobs lost, compared to just manning that fence with a bit of security? We have bases all over the world...close some of them and put the returning soldiers to works as civilian guards at the border. We employ vets and keep out illegals. It's just a matter of priorities. Clearly someone believes flooding the country with future democratic voters is more important.

For those of you inclined to conspiracies, there's this. Enjoy.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/obamas-agenda-overwhelm-system

Good post, RCynic. Good for the protestors in the small California town, not allowing all those illegal immigrants to take over their small town. Instead ol loading up the buses to drop off the illegals in our towns, why don't they take those loaded buses and drop off the illegals where they came from. Other countries deal quite strongly against illegals. ...expecially Mexico.

 

[MrJim]

So have you calculated what we save by admitting 11,000,000 immigrants in terms of educational, medical, social care and jobs lost, compared to just manning that fence with a bit of security? We have bases all over the world...close some of them and put the returning soldiers to works as civilian guards at the border. We employ vets and keep out illegals. It's just a matter of priorities. Clearly someone believes flooding the country with future democratic voters is more important.

For those of you inclined to conspiracies, there's this. Enjoy.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/obamas-agenda-overwhelm-system

A large portion of those 11,000,000 immigrants pay federal income taxes & immigrants are not taking many decent jobs away from American workers anyway. Most of the jobs they do are jobs Americans don't want. And, as I said, without their agricultural labor, you wouldn't be able to afford to buy groceries, if there were even any groceries to buy, given that crop growers wouldn't even be able to get their crops harvested without immigrant labor because Americans won't take those jobs at any pay rate.

As for the idea of putting US military personel to work guarding the fence... even if it were legal to do so, which it is not due to the Posse Comitatus Act , they would still be collecting pay & benefits, so the cost would be the same as if you went out & hired them.

The notion that building a wall or a fence would protect us from those evil Mexicans, is a reflection of many Americans' xenophobia & little else.

 

[RCynic]

A large portion of those 11,000,000 immigrants pay federal income taxes & immigrants are not taking many decent jobs away from American workers anyway. Most of the jobs they do are jobs Americans don't want. And, as I said, without their agricultural labor, you wouldn't be able to afford to buy groceries, if there were even any groceries to buy, given that crop growers wouldn't even be able to get their crops harvested without immigrant labor because Americans won't take those jobs at any pay rate.

As for the idea of putting US military personel to work guarding the fence... even if it were legal to do so, which it is not due to the Posse Comitatus Act , they would still be collecting pay & benefits, so the cost would be the same as if you went out & hired them.

The notion that building a wall or a fence would protect us from those evil Mexicans, is a reflection of many Americans' xenophobia & little else.

Yeah, I know about the act. That's why, if you read again more carefully, I said "as civilian guards". I'll respond to the rest tomorrow when I have more time. G'night.

 

[MrJim]

Good post, RCynic. Good for the protestors in the small California town, not allowing all those illegal immigrants to take over their small town. Instead ol loading up the buses to drop off the illegals in our towns, why don't they take those loaded buses and drop off the illegals where they came from. Other countries deal quite strongly against illegals. ...expecially Mexico.

Yes, we should stoop to those other countries' level & try to be more like them.

But seriously.... how would bussing 11 million people back to Mexico work?

How long would it take?

How would you search them out & who would do it?

How much would the whole program cost the American taxpayer... in terms of the field officers who would be tasked with locating & arresting them, the people manning the detention facilities (which would have to be built) where they would be held until their spot in a bus opened up (with 11 million others just like them, that could take quite awhile) the busses that would be used & the drivers, fuel & maintenance of the busses?

Not trying to be argumentative, but it's quite an undertaking when you stop & think about it.

 

[Jackie22]

Mr. Jim. you are a breath of fresh air..

 

[Davey Jones]

"RE: large portion of those 11,000,000 immigrants pay federal income taxes.

I hope you mean LEGAL immigrants such as the old Irish,German etc .s.

 

[Davey Jones]

Wonder how much it would cost to electrify that wired Mexican/US fence.

They have those right here in the U.S. at major prisons,wonder how many tried to escape?

They say it saves million of dollars per year.

OH wait!!! That would be cruel and unjust to kill those illegals.

 

[Misty]

Yes, we should stoop to those other countries' level & try to be more like them.

But seriously.... how would bussing 11 million people back to Mexico work?

How long would it take?

How would you search them out & who would do it?

How much would the whole program cost the American taxpayer... in terms of the field officers who would be tasked with locating & arresting them, the people manning the detention facilities (which would have to be built) where they would be held until their spot in a bus opened up (with 11 million others just like them, that could take quite awhile) the busses that would be used & the drivers, fuel & maintenance of the busses?

Not trying to be argumentative, but it's quite an undertaking when you stop & think about it.

I was talking about all the illegals who are being flown to Massachuesetts and /or driven by buses to other states to take care of them....let alone all the illegal immigrant children who are storming our borders...some as young as 3 years old, Jim. Those children should be taken back to their parents where they belong. What is happening to those children is child abuse. Border patrol guards are trying to take care of them, instead of doing their jobs of protecting the border. According to the news, they are living in filth, the smell is overpowering.

The Obama administration is now hiring a 100 lawyers to welcome and ease their entry into our country. Former acorn workers were sent to Mexico with pamphlets talking about the advantages of living in the U.S and signing them up for food stamps. Pres. Obama has admitted that he caused the flow of illegals here. All the money that is going out to house, feed, and move illegals to other cities using buses and planes, would more than pay for transporting them back to their own countries.

 

[Davey Jones]

re:Pres. Obama has admitted that he caused the flow of illegals here.

Something else we can all blame him for,does he ever do anything right for this country?

 

[MrJim]

"RE: large portion of those 11,000,000 immigrants pay federal income taxes.

I hope you mean LEGAL immigrants such as the old Irish,German etc .s.

No, I mean the UNDOCUMENTED aliens from Mexico who have federal income taxes deducted from their pay checks.

From the above link:

NASHVILLE — The tax system collects its due, even from a class of workers with little likelihood of claiming a refund and no hope of drawing a Social Security check.

Illegal immigrants are paying taxes to Uncle Sam, experts agree. Just how much they pay is hard to determine because the federal government doesn't fully tally it. But the latest figures available indicate it will amount to billions of dollars in federal income, Social Security and Medicare taxes this year. One rough estimate puts the amount of Social Security taxes alone at around $9 billion per year.

Paycheck withholding collects much of the federal tax from illegal workers, just as it does for legal workers.

And then there's...

Immigrants account for 4.5 percent of state’s economic outputJuly 3, 2014 By O. Kay Henderson
An analysis by an Iowa City-based think tank concludes undocumented immigrants in Iowa pay $64 million in state and local taxes each year. Peter Fisher, research director for the Iowa Policy Project, says that counters the conventional wisdom that illegal immigrants are getting a variety of state and federal government benefits, but aren’t paying anything.

“Actually, they’re paying almost as much as everybody else and they don’t benefit from everything,” Fisher says

.

http://www.radioiowa.com/2014/07/03/immigrants-account-for-4-5-percent-of-states-economic-output/

Soooooo..... :shrug:

 

[MrJim]

Wonder how much it would cost to electrify that wired Mexican/US fence.

They have those right here in the U.S. at major prisons,wonder how many tried to escape?

They say it saves million of dollars per year.

OH wait!!! That would be cruel and unjust to kill those illegals.

No, frying people alive for trying to make their lives better would be funny!!!

Oh, that ol' conservative "sense of humor".

 

[MrJim]

I was talking about all the illegals who are being flown to Massachuesetts and /or driven by buses to other states to take care of them....let alone all the illegal immigrant children who are storming our borders...some as young as 3 years old, Jim. Those children should be taken back to their parents where they belong. What is happening to those children is child abuse. Border patrol guards are trying to take care of them, instead of doing their jobs of protecting the border. According to the news, they are living in filth, the smell is overpowering.

The Obama administration is now hiring a 100 lawyers to welcome and ease their entry into our country. Former acorn workers were sent to Mexico with pamphlets talking about the advantages of living in the U.S and signing them up for food stamps. Pres. Obama has admitted that he caused the flow of illegals here. All the money that is going out to house, feed, and move illegals to other cities using buses and planes, would more than pay for transporting them back to their own countries.

Link to source, please.... :whome:

 

[MrJim]

Mr. Jim. you are a breath of fresh air..

Aw, shucks, ma'am.

Tain't nuthin.... :whoops:


:bigwink:

 

[Misty]

Link to source, please.... :whome:

Here is one source Jim, showing proof that the wave of illegal children crossing the border was pre-planned: This was also in our newspaper. This source shows the actual government advertisement back in January, for the escort services they were wanting to hire, and even mentioned that they were preparing for 65, 000 undocumented children.

Quote:

"A recently discovered government request for “escort services for unaccompanied alien children” dating back to January is raising questions about whether the government was planning for a surge of illegal immigrants this year as amnesty talks heated up in the United States.

The request specifically says it was preparing for 65,000 undocumented children.
The U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement confirmed the request to TheBlaze, which is for transportation companies to escort children from the U.S.-Mexico border to relocation facilities throughout the United States.

read more at: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...r-unaccompanied-alien-children-at-the-border/

As for other source links you are asking for, Jim, it will take awhile to backtrack them and post them here.

 

[Ina]

I don't question that Obama did this, what we don't understand is why. What is he getting or going to get out of this action?

 

[Jackie22]

"The Blaze" is Glen Beck's web site or publication...........say no more.

Ina, President Obama did not preplan or cause this flood of children into this country.

 

[Ina]

I don't know what to believe anymore Jackie. Who did do it?

 

[Jackie22]

I believe that the children are leaving their countries because of the violence there....that is what they are telling the authorities.

 

[Misty]

"The Blaze" is Glen Beck's web site or publication...........say no more.

Ina, President Obama did not preplan or cause this flood of children into this country.

Here is another source with the information that is not Blaze and a video from CBS news, Jackie

http://www.kpho.com/story/25931504/...edicted-surge-in-unaccompanied-immigrant-kids

[h=6][/h]

A document published in January by a website promoting federal government opportunities indicates government officials expected a surge of unaccompanied immigrant children to enter the United States. (Source: CBS 5 News)[h=6][/h]
From Jan. 1 through June 15, more than 42,000 unaccompanied children poured across the Mexican border into the U.S. (Source: CBS 5 News)
PHOENIX (CBS5) - A document published in January by a website promoting federal government opportunities indicates government officials expected a surge of unaccompanied immigrant children to enter the United States.Jan. 29, the Department of Homeland Security posted a request for information, or RFI. The post is titled "Escort Services for Unaccompanied Alien Children."

"ICE is seeking the services of a responsible vendor that shares the philosophy of treating all UAC with dignity and respect, while adhering to standard operating procedures and policies that allow for an effective, efficient and incident-free transport," the document reads. "There will be approximately 65,000 UAC (unaccompanied alien children) in total."
"Escort services" are described in the ad as assisting children with transportation, food and clothing.