Lying and the importance of honesty, (according to author and psychologist, Dorothy Rowe)

[Gary O']

Like this,.....?

Well sir, that's legend, lore.
What songs are made of

I have a little story of my reality, early on;


Tom Gurls

1957
I was dropped off for the day at the Beasley farm.
I don’t recall how or why, but, since both folks worked, ever so often I’d just get dropped off for the day…..at someone’s place.
Didn’t matter if I knew them or not.
What did matter, I guess, was that someone was watching my 7 or 8 year old idiot savant self.

The Beasleys had a farm, cows, fields, ponds, barns of hay, yards of farm animals….and three sisters.
Horrifically wild, country girl wild, sisters.

Mom chatted with Mrs Beasley as I settled in at the kitchen table.

‘Oh he’ll be fine, there’s plenty to do here.’

‘OK, bye bye.’

And she was gone.

The kitchen smelled of ham and eggs.

I was given a glass of milk, raw milk, warm raw milk, accompanied with the complimentary clumps.

‘You don’t like milk?’

‘Full.’ (ready to hork up my own breakfast)


‘Well, why don’t you go outside, the girls will be out in a minute.’

(Gurls??!!)

They aged around 10, 12, and 13 I’d say.

‘Mamma, can we play with the boy?’

I felt like Lennie Small’s imaginary rabbit.

They too had bib overalls, but no shoes, no T-shirt, just bibs.

‘Wanna play in the barn?’

‘Yeah, sure.’

Not realizing I was the prey for catching and raping, I climbed the hay bales and crawled thru the tunnels they’d made.
It was quite fun at first.
Things turned a bit when I heard the eldest say something like ‘he’s over there, get him’.

I made for the open air, and scurried toward the corn field.
Not a chance.
The eldest tackled me at about the third row.

Everything kinda gets fuzzy after that, as I was picked up and thrown down like the calf in a calf roping contest.
My arms and legs were pinned by their knees, as all six hands eagerly explored my entire self….things even I had yet to explore.


So, being the only one present of sound mind, I immediately employed my most potent offense, which consisted of violently flopping my head from side to side.
This abated some when the eldest straddled my face.

I then went into stealth mode, lying as still as one could while being tossed up and down, probed, rubbed, and generally molested, farm girl style.

Eventually (I’d say sometime late morning) they lost interest.

Lunch.

‘Did you girls show Gary the castration shed?’

(!!!!!!!!!)

I don’t recall leaping up, running out the door, or the journey to the pond, but I have feint recollection of the sound of the kitchen chair hitting the floor, and the screen door slamming shut.

I played with the ducks and geese on the other side of the pond, taking swift glances behind me every few seconds, until I heard our Chevy pull up.

Farm girls, as a rule, turned into extremely fit, vivacious young ladies, and seemed to know what they wanted, and when they wanted it (now).

I avoided them like the plague, right up until about 15 or 16. Then we, shall we say, taught each other a few things.

 

[grahamg]

Well sir, that's legend, lore.. What songs are made of
I have a little story of my reality, early on;
Tom Gurls
1957
I was dropped off for the day at the Beasley farm.
I don’t recall how or why, but, since both folks worked, ever so often I’d just get dropped off for the day…..at someone’s place.
Didn’t matter if I knew them or not.
What did matter, I guess, was that someone was watching my 7 or 8 year old idiot savant self.

The Beasleys had a farm, cows, fields, ponds, barns of hay, yards of farm animals….and three sisters.
Horrifically wild, country girl wild, sisters.

Mom chatted with Mrs Beasley as I settled in at the kitchen table.

‘Oh he’ll be fine, there’s plenty to do here.’

‘OK, bye bye.’

And she was gone.

The kitchen smelled of ham and eggs.

I was given a glass of milk, raw milk, warm raw milk, accompanied with the complimentary clumps.

‘You don’t like milk?’

‘Full.’ (ready to hork up my own breakfast)


‘Well, why don’t you go outside, the girls will be out in a minute.’

(Gurls??!!)

They aged around 10, 12, and 13 I’d say.

‘Mamma, can we play with the boy?’

I felt like Lennie Small’s imaginary rabbit.

They too had bib overalls, but no shoes, no T-shirt, just bibs.

‘Wanna play in the barn?’

‘Yeah, sure.’

Not realizing I was the prey for catching and raping, I climbed the hay bales and crawled thru the tunnels they’d made.
It was quite fun at first.
Things turned a bit when I heard the eldest say something like ‘he’s over there, get him’.

I made for the open air, and scurried toward the corn field.
Not a chance.
The eldest tackled me at about the third row.

Everything kinda gets fuzzy after that, as I was picked up and thrown down like the calf in a calf roping contest.
My arms and legs were pinned by their knees, as all six hands eagerly explored my entire self….things even I had yet to explore.


So, being the only one present of sound mind, I immediately employed my most potent offense, which consisted of violently flopping my head from side to side.
This abated some when the eldest straddled my face.

I then went into stealth mode, lying as still as one could while being tossed up and down, probed, rubbed, and generally molested, farm girl style.

Eventually (I’d say sometime late morning) they lost interest.

Lunch.

‘Did you girls show Gary the castration shed?’

(!!!!!!!!!)

I don’t recall leaping up, running out the door, or the journey to the pond, but I have feint recollection of the sound of the kitchen chair hitting the floor, and the screen door slamming shut.

I played with the ducks and geese on the other side of the pond, taking swift glances behind me every few seconds, until I heard our Chevy pull up.

Farm girls, as a rule, turned into extremely fit, vivacious young ladies, and seemed to know what they wanted, and when they wanted it (now).

I avoided them like the plague, right up until about 15 or 16. Then we, shall we say, taught each other a few things.

Never heard the likes of it!

Four children whose father had tragically died in an accident, came to my parents farm with their mother from their home in Germany, when the the two girls were young teenagers, and they tried flirting with this old fool, (I pretended not to notice!). That's about all that happened, except the lads decided to have some fun trying to push my armchair around the room, with me sitting in it.
However, all innocent fun, and with my mother around this was as much as anyone was about to get up to!

 

[Gary O']

Never heard the likes of it!

Well, in our neck-o-the-woods, farm kids were let loose
....and we ran
mostly romping thru fields, streams and woods
Chasing cattle
Climbing trees
Exploring things, things like beaver and marmot dams

.....and

exploring each other

 

[Nathan]

"It's not a lie as long as you believe it."
-Seinfeld Show

...and that my friends is how some liars can easily pass a polygraph test. People who have a conscience tend to have an emotional reaction to thoughts, can actually fare much worse in a polygraph test telling the truth, than accomplished liars telling lies.

 

[grahamg]

...and that my friends is how some liars can easily pass a polygraph test. People who have a conscience tend to have an emotional reaction to thoughts, can actually fare much worse in a polygraph test telling the truth, than accomplished liars telling lies.

There are all kinds of "tells", to indicate someones lying aren't there, (small movements of the eyes, and body language signals to pick up on, if you're well versed in these things).
However, I'm sure you're right about the issue of polygraph tests.

 

[grahamg]

Well, in our neck-o-the-woods, farm kids were let loose....and we ran
mostly romping thru fields, streams and woods.Chasing cattle.Climbing trees
Exploring things, things like beaver and marmot dams....and
exploring each other

We'll let you off!
(most amusing stories too, "its like we're back watching the carry on"!).

 

[fuzzybuddy]

I've been thinking about this thread. When I was a nursing student, I rotated into pediatrics. The first thing they hammered into us was NEVER, NEVER EVER lie to a kid. There was no such thing as "you might feel some discomfort", when you knew it was going to hurt like hell. You had to be honest, and tell it like it is. Otherwise, you had a screaming, scared, uncooperative kid. Doctors, and the staff took time to explain, in detail what was going to happen, and answered truthfully any questions. It was sort of strange, a 10 year old kid could know just about the same knowledge of his illness, as his doctors. I had kids, who could interpret their own lab work.
But that level of honesty, and directness wasn't used with adults. That's the "some discomfort" thing. That;'s not lying, but it isn't the truth, either. I was in a hospital for most of 2018, and pain is pain, not discomfort. And I know the staff didn't really want to over explain things to adults, as you do with a kid. Adults tend to want to be their own doctors. The less they know, they better. Why does honesty and directness work so well with kids, but such a disaster when it comes to adults????????

 

[grahamg]

I've been thinking about this thread. When I was a nursing student, I rotated into pediatrics. The first thing they hammered into us was NEVER, NEVER EVER lie to a kid. There was no such thing as "you might feel some discomfort", when you knew it was going to hurt like hell. You had to be honest, and tell it like it is. Otherwise, you had a screaming, scared, uncooperative kid. Doctors, and the staff took time to explain, in detail what was going to happen, and answered truthfully any questions. It was sort of strange, a 10 year old kid could know just about the same knowledge of his illness, as his doctors. I had kids, who could interpret their own lab work.
But that level of honesty, and directness wasn't used with adults. That's the "some discomfort" thing. That;'s not lying, but it isn't the truth, either. I was in a hospital for most of 2018, and pain is pain, not discomfort. And I know the staff didn't really want to over explain things to adults, as you do with a kid. Adults tend to want to be their own doctors. The less they know, they better. Why does honesty and directness work so well with kids, but such a disaster when it comes to adults????????

Your points about children have prompted me to look at the book quoted from in the OP and try to pick out comments relating to children, and the raising of children.
I've found a few and will try to copy them and post here later, but the challenge set by the author is as follows, (as described at the end of the preface):

"We could decide to change our ideas and thus solve the problems we are facing, both privately and publicly. However, as Elizabeth Pisani said, "We cant solve a problem that we wont describe honestly". Are you prepared to give up lying?"

 

[grahamg]

Comments about children from Dorothy Rowe's book, (I've just picked out a couple from many references to children/parenting):

(Preface)
Quote:
"You must never assume you know how another person thinks and feels. The only way to discover this is to sk that person, and if he trusts you, he will tell you.

The greatest change in ideas that I have witnessed is in how parents see their children. This was not a worldwide revolution, and the majority of children are still in servitude to their parents who see them as possessions to be used as they see fit, but a significant number of parents have changed their views about how children should be raised, and this changed the society in which they lived.
The revolution that led people to question the power of parents began in the 1950s when an American paediatrician, Benjamin Spock, put forward the dangerous idea that parents should not punish children three years and younger for failing to do something that was physically impossible for them to do, that is, have voluntary control over their bladder and bowels. Children need to learn how to do this in their own good time. Hard on the heels of Dr. Spock came T-groups, consciousness-raising groups, and a plethora of therapies. All these activities gave the participants permission to break the fifth commandment,'Honour they mother and thy father, so that your days will be long in the land'. Criticise your parents and you're dead. This led people to wonder, whether, since they had suffered at the hands of their parents, they should not think hard about how they raise their own children. Now when I see a child doing something that would have earned me as a child a hard slap or worse from my mother, and instead the child's mother engages the child in conversation or distracts the child, I want to tell her how wonderful she is. I refrain from doing this in case I embarrass her. After all she was simply doing what her mother had done when she was a child."

(Page 131)
"Truth always causes problems. Parents might feel that they ought to teach their children to be truthful. After all, if you children are truthful, they have to be obedient or suffer more punishment than they would if they were effective liars. However, truthful children will tell neighbours and relatives what you might not wish them to know. They will comment, usually unfavourably, on your appearance and behaviour, and they will draw your attention to the number of times you lie. Nevertheless there are parents who demand their children always tell the truth. In doing so, they forget that, whatever parents do, it always attracts the attention of the law of unintended consequences."

 

[grahamg]

More from the review of Dorothy Rowe's book by James Robertson, including his most critical comments:

"The title ("Why We Lie"), is something of a misnomer and is more polemic than psychological inquiry. Which is a shame because, freed from the framework of clinical investigation, Rowe tends towards the meandering – and slightly curmudgeonly. But she is a sharp observer of human nature.

But you don't need a psychologist's training to figure out that "some people" or celebrities are habitual fabricators. Rowe illuminates most when she resists her obvious enthusiasm for lobbing bricks at the powerful.

Becoming a parent, she writes, is an act whose motivations are so often cloaked by self-deception. Parents profess a desire to give their lives meaning, but Rowe suggests that many parents actually view their children as continuations of themselves and a means of reconciling with the inevitability of their eventual non-existence."

https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/books/why-we-lie-20100816-12682.html

 

[grahamg]

More from Dorothy Rowe's book, (quite an eyeopener in my view):

Quote:
"Many introverts use a carefully chosen display of emotion as a weapon. Tragically, they had built their whole identity and her life's project on gaining power and control, and thus winning their father's approval. When all this slipped away, they had nothing to put in its place. Our sense of being a person is not separate from our body. When it crumbles, our body crumbles too. (The reverse is not necessarily true, as many frail old people demonstrate.)

Our sense of being a person, our ideas, memory and emotions form our internal reality, and the world around us our external reality. When life is going along smoothly, the two realities have the same degree of 'realness'. When life is not going along smoothly and we are beset by a crisis, we retreat into what we experience as the more 'real' reality. If you are an introvert, you are familiar with how, when something quite unexpected and untoward happens to you, the world around you becomes not quite real. Your brain fails to convince you that the picture it has constructed of your external reality is actually there. What does not change is the 'realness' of your internal reality. You retreat into yourself, limit how much you talk to others, and seek solitude until external reality becomes real again and you can deal with it. If you are an extrovert, you are familiar with how, when something quite unexpected and untoward happens to you, your internal reality becomes unreal to the point of almost vanishing.

Your external reality remains real, and so you seek out people to talk to, and you busy yourself with whatever comes to hand. If your external reality can turn unreal and, if you are frightened of chaos, then the security and clarity of truth is very important to you. On the other hand, if your sense of existence depends on having good relations with other people, you might not want to run the risk of alienating them by telling them truth they do not wish to hear. Extroverts like to be liked by everyone, and are faced with the problem that it is impossible to be universally liked. For introverts, as long as a small group of people whom they have selected likes and approves of them, they are satisfied.

I have encountered Edzard Ernst only once, at a conference, and found him to be kindly and well-mannered, but, when he spoke, he had naught for the comfort of those whose work he had examined and found wanting. In doing this, he has managed to offend the entire community of complementary medicine practitioners, most of their patients, and Prince Charles himself, despite the fact that Ernst dedicated his latest book, Trick or Treatment, to the prince.'?

Nothing of what I have written here should be taken to mean that all extroverts are liars and all introverts invariably tell the truth. Far from it. Many extroverts care about the truth and struggle daily with the problem of telling the truth while not offending people. Some of them have perfected the art of telling unpleasant truths in the gentlest, kindest way.
Many introverts make lying their way of life. Some have the attitude that, as long as they know what the truth is, it does not matter whom they lie to, if lying will further their interests. Others create a theory that they are sure is the absolute truth. They lie in order to force their theory on to others."

 

[grahamg]

Can you cope with a bit more, (hope so!)?

Quote:
"We do not need a language to understand the danger of being annihilated as a person, in the same way as we do not need a
language to understand that, if we touch something very hot, we must withdraw our hand immediately.

In her book, Reddy mentions what she calls the 'disintegration' of the self following bereavement or shock.' In psychoanalytic literature, such 'shock' is referred to as trauma. For the baby this can occur when the 'good' mother suddenly turns into the 'bad' mother. The smiling mother might suddenly become angry, or distant, or vanish and not return. Whenever we suffer a trauma or a bereavement, we discover that the world is not what we thought it was. Some of our ideas are disconfirmed, and we feel ourselves falling apart. We have to find ways of protecting ourselves from trauma, and, if this happens, ways of holding our sense of self together.

At about nine months babies discover that they can protect themselves by refusing to obey orders. However, adults are more powerful than infants, and they can punish those who disobey. When the refusal to obey fails to protect infants, they have to learn how to lie. But before they can do this, they have to discover the two prerequisites of lying.

To lie you must first know the truth. The person you wish to lie to must be capable of being deceived. From the moment newborn babies gaze upon the world they are in the business of discovering what is going on. They want to discover this for themselves, and, as soon as they can point at something, they want to share this information with the people around them. Reddy wrote, 'From about 12 to 18 months toddlers
effortfully, selectively and appropriately inform other people truthfully about reality, often telling people things they don't appear to know or may "need" to know." They offer other people information; and they are capable of selecting among several adults those adults who lack certain information that the other adults already have.

A number of recent studies have found that even fifteen-month old toddlers seem to be able to detect that other people can have false beliefs about reality. Well before they can tell a lie, infants discover how to deceive. They quickly grasp the principle of 'What the eye doesn't see the heart doesn't grieve over.' If your mother does not want you to do something, wait until she is out of the room. The psychologist Judy Dunn has shown that toddlers of no more than sixteen months can discover what would upset or please their mother or their siblings, and then do it.' Such young children fail the Piagetian tests for understanding the general principle that other people can hold false beliefs. However, the people whose minds you need to be able to read early in your life are your nearest and dearest, because they are the people who can easily annihilate you as a person, or give you the kind of affirmation that brings the greatest joy to your heart.

Most of us are born into families where the parents hold differing views on a great many subjects. It does not take us long to discover that we can get a biscuit from Dad by giving him a cuddle, whereas a biscuit from Mum comes only as a reward for doing something she wants us to do. Once we discover that our parents have very different views on what constitutes clean hands or the very last story before going to sleep, we can elaborate our tactics for deceiving our parents. However, some children are born to parents who decide that they will appear to their children to agree in their views about everything. Not being offered alternative interpretations of events, the child believes that his parents see everything exactly as it is, and are therefore not susceptible to being deceived."