Puerto Rico seeks aid

C

Chucktin

Member
Location
East Central Fla
I'm going to say something that's definitely un-PC. Could the hurricane disaster neediness be tainted by corruption?
I think I saw similar in the news coverage of the Iraq war. That the local population expected us, the US, to move in and make millionaires of them all. Wasn't happening, didn't happen.
Now I think I see some suggestions of the same happening in the islands post Irma. I feel for them but wish I could see more bootstrapping occuring.

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IMO there is a big difference between helping Iraq and helping the American citizens of Puerto Rico.

It amazes me that half of Puerto Rico is still without electricity.

I can't accept the idea that we can't afford to help the Americans in Puerto Rico recover more quickly. If we have so much revenue flowing into the United States Treasury that we can afford to provide massive tax cuts to corporations then we can afford to help Puerto Rico.

As far as corruption goes I think you will find it anywhere that you find large amounts of money changing hands. I'm willing to bet that we could find a fair amount of corruption in the rebuilding of New Orleans, Houston, etc...

Read this quick, I have a feeling that it might disappear, LOL!
 
The New York Times reported last week that the US might withhold $225 million in aid to Pakistan because of Trump's frustration over its handling of terrorists in the country. White House officials met to decide whether to cancel the aid, the Times reported.

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Chucktin said:
Now I think I see some suggestions of the same happening in the islands post Irma. I feel for them but wish I could see more bootstrapping occuring.
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Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean by 'bootstrapping'?

Dark, desperate life without power in Puerto Rico
Denver Post/Associated Press, Dec 26, 2017
https://www.denverpost.com/2017/12/26/dark-desperate-life-without-power-puerto-rico/

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A friend of mine is working with FEMA down in Puerto Rico. She is an experienced emergency projects manager (e.g.; logistics) with our local utility; they agreed to lend her for a month but it's looking likely it will take longer. She says the biggest issue they have is that no one will sign any papers to take legal responsibility (a result of the heavy criticism PR government received for signing with Whitefish).

They have people and equipment to get further into the island, but she's been there a month and said less than half of what could have been accomplished, has been erected. Very frustrating.

Also, as evidenced in previous U.S.disasters, major coordination between agencies is lacking. She didn't get there until early December, but found no one at FEMA had talked to the Army Corps of Engineers yet, even though they're both on site.
 
Puerto Rico already had a old/deteriorating electric infrastructure. The power company went bankrupt. The problem in Puerto Rico compared to hurricane relief in the southern states is that everything must be flown or shipped in unlike the continental US where supplies and personal can drive in. Canada has even sent relief to places like Florida after a storm. Every pole, spool power cable, tool, truck etc cannot drive there. To top it off there is only so much temporary work they can do for a power grid. With the number of damaged areas they are basically rebuilding, not repairing much of the infrastructure. When it's done some areas will have better conditions than before the storm.
 
Until W. FEMA was focussed on disaster relief. That was its mission. W put in under Homeland Security and focussed heavily on recovering from terrorist attacks. That diluted and distracted its traditional role and I don't think it recovered.

Comparing the efforts in Florida, Houston, and Puerto Rico does not speak highly of FEMA or its ability to handle the natural disasters that can be expected every year.
 
Aunt Bea said:
IMO there is a big difference between helping Iraq and helping the American citizens of Puerto Rico.

It amazes me that half of Puerto Rico is still without electricity.

I can't accept the idea that we can't afford to help the Americans in Puerto Rico recover more quickly. If we have so much revenue flowing into the United States Treasury that we can afford to provide massive tax cuts to corporations then we can afford to help Puerto Rico.

As far as corruption goes I think you will find it anywhere that you find large amounts of money changing hands. I'm willing to bet that we could find a fair amount of corruption in the rebuilding of New Orleans, Houston, etc...

Read this quick, I have a feeling that it might disappear, LOL!
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree, Aunt Bea. Well said!
 
I got an email from friends in Puerto Rico. They have been without electricity for more than 100 days. They have a generator they share with neighbors to run a few hours each day to keep the refrigerator cold. They also had damage to their house and have trouble getting supplies to make repairs. At first they had trouble getting gas to run the generator but said that is getting better.

Several years ago we had an ice storm and we were without electricity for 4 or 5 days. I can't imagine being without for 100 days or more. The news report said some areas may not get power back on until summer.
 
Lethe200 said:
Not sure what you mean by 'bootstrapping'?

Dark, desperate life without power in Puerto Rico
Denver Post/Associated Press, Dec 26, 2017
https://www.denverpost.com/2017/12/26/dark-desperate-life-without-power-puerto-rico/

=====
A friend of mine is working with FEMA down in Puerto Rico. She is an experienced emergency projects manager (e.g.; logistics) with our local utility; they agreed to lend her for a month but it's looking likely it will take longer. She says the biggest issue they have is that no one will sign any papers to take legal responsibility (a result of the heavy criticism PR government received for signing with Whitefish).

They have people and equipment to get further into the island, but she's been there a month and said less than half of what could have been accomplished, has been erected. Very frustrating.

Also, as evidenced in previous U.S.disasters, major coordination between agencies is lacking. She didn't get there until early December, but found no one at FEMA had talked to the Army Corps of Engineers yet, even though they're both on site.
Click to expand...
I think "bootstrapping" means the people living there taking more on to help themselves rather than sitting back and waiting for others to come in and do it for them. You can't build your own electric grid but there are a lot of little things that if done in a widespread effort by the able-bodied locals that can be done that makes it easier/quicker for those that can to get there and do it.
 
>>You can't build your own electric grid but there are a lot of little things that if done in a widespread effort by the able-bodied locals that can be done that makes it easier/quicker for those that can to get there and do it.>>

Really? What, specifically?

I'm genuinely curious.

For example, the devastating Oct 2017 fires in Sonoma County which burned down hundreds of homes and wiped out entire blocks - imagine that for dozens and dozens of miles, rather than just isolated neighborhoods. Homeowners were not even allowed back for several days. Then only limited access, to try to salvage a few possessions.

It is January 2018 and in a middle- to upper middle-class area, clean-up is restricted to authorized companies due to pollution concerns (much of the devastation occurred near protected watersheds where the affected cities get their drinking water). No rebuilding permits have been issued due to furious debate within the city council and planning department on what will be/won't be allowed.

Now, I'm not saying it's the same in Puerto Rico. But I'll bet victims of Hurricanes Harvey and Irma on the mainland have their own parallel stories about the difficulties of rebuilding.

What are you suggesting these Americans, both mainland and island, do in a "widespread effort", when devastation is almost total?

I live in an earthquake zone which is overdue for a major shake, so this is why I'm truly interested in hearing your details or suggestions.
 
It's a given, that more and more people will be affected by natural disasters....as time goes by. After all, the human population is growing, and more and more infrastructure is being put at risk by everything the planet throws at us....earthquakes, forest fires, hurricanes, etc., etc. About the Only defense people might have is to assess the dangers in their given area, and try to take steps, ahead of time, to minimize their exposure to potential damage. Every time there is such a disaster, the investigations afterwards show the mistakes that People have made that make the situation even worse.
 
I agree Don. Be as prepared as possible and plan how best not to rely on outside sources. That's really all you can do.
We hope local and federal governments have a plan but it usually after a disaster that we find that out. It's best to know that information ahead of time.
 
Lethe200 said:
>>You can't build your own electric grid but there are a lot of little things that if done in a widespread effort by the able-bodied locals that can be done that makes it easier/quicker for those that can to get there and do it.>>

Really? What, specifically?

I'm genuinely curious.

For example, the devastating Oct 2017 fires in Sonoma County which burned down hundreds of homes and wiped out entire blocks - imagine that for dozens and dozens of miles, rather than just isolated neighborhoods. Homeowners were not even allowed back for several days. Then only limited access, to try to salvage a few possessions.

It is January 2018 and in a middle- to upper middle-class area, clean-up is restricted to authorized companies due to pollution concerns (much of the devastation occurred near protected watersheds where the affected cities get their drinking water). No rebuilding permits have been issued due to furious debate within the city council and planning department on what will be/won't be allowed.

Now, I'm not saying it's the same in Puerto Rico. But I'll bet victims of Hurricanes Harvey and Irma on the mainland have their own parallel stories about the difficulties of rebuilding.

What are you suggesting these Americans, both mainland and island, do in a "widespread effort", when devastation is almost total?

I live in an earthquake zone which is overdue for a major shake, so this is why I'm truly interested in hearing your details or suggestions.
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Good grief, talk about over the top. not every disaster is the same and with some they do clear everybody out of the area for their safety. But not all disasters are that way and PR is one of them... the one that was being discussed. What you can do depends on what you are dealing with. I've been out there and helped in my neighborhood and seen others out there as well. I've sanded a hill during an ice storm, shoveled ice for hours so neighbors could get in and out more safely, broken up areas that were pooling water and entering homes during flooding rains, cut up limbs and pushed them away so vehicles could get through on roads, etc. If you are still there you can often find something to do to make yourself helpful. There is usually a ton of little things that need to be done and if enough people chip in to help they can make a significant difference.
 
Puerto Rico has no Electoral votes, and no Congressional impact. I'm sure if P.R. Congressmen were needed to pass a bill, aid would be greater and delivered quicker. About 10 years from now, there will be a huge Congressional Investigation, which will expose massive corruption in the aiding of Puerto Rico. But since the statute of limitations has expired, there's nothing they can do about it.
 
Helping Puerto Rico is one thing expecting miracles is another. I think there have been enough articles written about the lack of maintenance on the electrical grid the so no sense in getting into that.


Not published or at least I haven't seen info like a contingent of 60,000 utility workers including contractors put to work restoring power in Florida & Texas where the grids have been maintained. Crews from around America stayed from 14 to 19 days to get service for 8 million back on line. Unusual for help was the request for large management teams to oversee repair operations and insure safety. Including travel time work was an estimated 190,000 hours. Trucks & normal restoration gear, crews took drones to inspect storm damage.


Meanwhile Dave Bonenberger VP of distribution operations at PPL & John Wolfe VP of distribution operations at LG&E & KU have been working with utilities across America to identify resources to assist Puerto Rico.


The hype about not caring is total BS. The scope or effort it took where access was possible by driving to Florida & Texas is kind of mind boggling. Now try to imagine what it is going to take ship everything needed to rebuild infrastructure that has been ignored.
 
Knight said:
Helping Puerto Rico is one thing expecting miracles is another. I think there have been enough articles written about the lack of maintenance on the electrical grid the so no sense in getting into that.


Not published or at least I haven't seen info like a contingent of 60,000 utility workers including contractors put to work restoring power in Florida & Texas where the grids have been maintained. Crews from around America stayed from 14 to 19 days to get service for 8 million back on line. Unusual for help was the request for large management teams to oversee repair operations and insure safety. Including travel time work was an estimated 190,000 hours. Trucks & normal restoration gear, crews took drones to inspect storm damage.


Meanwhile Dave Bonenberger VP of distribution operations at PPL & John Wolfe VP of distribution operations at LG&E & KU have been working with utilities across America to identify resources to assist Puerto Rico.


The hype about not caring is total BS. The scope or effort it took where access was possible by driving to Florida & Texas is kind of mind boggling. Now try to imagine what it is going to take ship everything needed to rebuild infrastructure that has been ignored.
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On a side note, after all these huge natural disasters I sometimes take note of all the wiring along the local roads as I drive along. It's mind boggling how they keep up with it and maintain it in good times... now after a natural disaster that took out a LOT of it. Wow is all I can say. It is more complicated that most of us image. For starters you can't just put up a pole and hang stuff as there is a lot of pulling forces generated by those cables/wires and you have to balance that out as you go, I would think.
 
dpwspringer said:
On a side note, after all these huge natural disasters I sometimes take note of all the wiring along the local roads as I drive along. It's mind boggling how they keep up with it and maintain it in good times... now after a natural disaster that took out a LOT of it. Wow is all I can say. It is more complicated that most of us image. For starters you can't just put up a pole and hang stuff as there is a lot of pulling forces generated by those cables/wires and you have to balance that out as you go, I would think.
Click to expand...

"Above ground" electrical wiring is the norm, in most locales. That exposes these cables to all the forces of nature, and especially tree growth near the cables. If the power company...or the home owners...don't take action to keep the trees trimmed, a power outage can almost be guaranteed when a wind/ice storm breaks the trees, and they fall into the cables. Our local power company sends a crew through the area every year, and they trim the trees for us. As a result, it is very rare for us to have any outages. The worst outage we've seen was when we still lived in the city, and a huge ice storm broke down trees all over the area...we were without power for 4 days....and the streets were almost impassible with all the broken trees lying around.
 
Maybe not well understood is the structure of an electrical system. It begins with Generation, the power generated is delivered in high voltage via Transmission lines to sub stations where it is then supplied to businesses and homes via Distribution lines.


For those that see those huge towers with lines that stretch for miles there is indeed a calculation or "sag" factor that goes into how those lines are strung. Depending on the electrical load the size or thickness of the line matters. A line carrying 750 thousand volts can be as heavy as 6 lb. per foot in length. Without these lines power generation has wait.


Ok now if those towers & lines need replaced how much material was stored in Puerto Rico for emergencies? The media doesn't say.


Once those towers and lines are replaced the next huge task is sub station repair. Did Puerto Rico power have spare transformers to knock down the bulk voltage? Don't know do we?


The poles & distribution power lines probably in the thousands of miles needed to service the entire island. How much if any were stored for emergency?


Next is without power just where is the manpower needed and food to feed that manpower going to stay & eat while there to help?


I truly sympathise with the people of Puerto Rico that need what electricity provides. What irks me is the onesided reporting making it sound like we on the mainland are doing nothing. I'm more practical, I believe in assessing the overall need in terms of what is available and what needs to be shipped to meet what the Puerto Rican power company failed to have ready for emergency. I'm no fan of simply throwing a lot of money to politicians so they can play hero and distribute it as they see fit.


I don't know how others feel about the Mayor of San Juan standing outside a locked gate where containers full of supplies were not being delivered because Puerto Rican drivers wouldn't drive. Really disturbing was that same mayor complaining about Pres. Trump not sending supplies while behind her was a warehouse full of supplies.


Painting a picture of no help is an injustice to us all.
 

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