The low-skilled immigration debate one won't read about.

David777

Senior Member
Location
Silicon Valley
Recently @JonSR77 created a thread Politics and Religion that members discussed pros/cons on those subjects. A mix of responses followed. I added a bit about ways one could discuss such without using terms, names that tend to incite and by using links. So the below is a test herein for one such narrow subject, low-skilled immigration. I generally ignore political news and discussions, however immigration is one area with negative impacts to what was for decades a great country, that I see the public being greatly manipulated by those with agendas most politicians, corporations, and their media avoid mentioning instead with their own biased narratives to continue status quos.

A key factor in USA for lack of low end employment opportunities for low skilled Americans, high school diplomate, and youth, homelessness, the urban property crime epidemic, endless residential real estate appreciation squeeze at low end, wealth & wage gap, is well described below in ways that will rarely be discussed in most controlled public news media. This first section below is to show we have a problem with significant real numbers. The second section is a snippet from a longer well crafted essay I highly recommend reading. We citizen peons in the middle of the debate are the prey for their media game.

https://www.newamericaneconomy.org/issues/undocumented-immigrants/

Occupations where Undocumented Immigrants Make up the Largest Share of Workers, 2014
Occupation Share of Workers, Undocumented Number of Undocumented Workers
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agricultural Workers (All Types) 36.1% 244,459
Grounds Maintenance Workers 26.7% 266,551
Other Food Preparation and Serving-Related Workers, including School Cafeteria Attendants and Hospital Food Service Workers 25.1% 109,223
Textile, Apparel, and Furnishings Workers 23.1% 120,059
Cooks and Food Preparation Workers 22.6% 470,938
Construction Trades Workers 20.0% 1,066,648
Helpers, Construction Trades 19.3% 6,418
Building Cleaning and Pest Control Workers 19.0% 662,014
Food Processing Workers 18.6% 105,993

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2017/11/low-skill-immigration-case-restriction/

...In short, the combination of declining native male workforce participation and the demonstrated preference of employers for immigrant labor over natives strongly suggests that many jobs that could go to low-skill natives are in fact being done by recent immigrants, both legal and illegal, especially Hispanics and Asians. The result is a dysfunctional, self-reinforcing equilibrium, both economic and political, that is divisive and destructive of the well-being of less-educated Americans and their communities and, ultimately, of the national interest. Hispanic construction workers labor a few miles away from inner cities where large numbers of prime-age black men have no formal employment and are disproportionately involved in criminal activity. Eastern European immigrants serve affluent tourists at New England shore resorts not far from communities, whether urban or rural, where growing numbers of American men are jobless. Native work participation rates are steadily dropping while businesses lobby Washington for an uninterrupted flow of new, lowskill foreign workers.

The reluctance of business owners to seek out and employ unskilled black workers, and especially men, often means that the connection between black unemployment and the push for more foreign workers is studiously avoided. Policy elites advocate for what is effectively an open borders regime while supporting a divisive multiculturalism at home. Realistic discussions of actual behavior and cultural differences are banished as racist and xenophobic. A racism narrative becomes the sole explanation for persistent high levels of black unemployment. As to the white working class, job shortages are blamed, while immigrant labor continues in demand.

Why restrict immigration? Replacing American workers with fresh waves of low-skill immigrants is not a viable long-term strategy for our country. Despite some immediate economic benefits for employers, large shareholders, and consumers, albeit with substantial offsetting fiscal costs, mass importation of low-skill workers is both demoralizing and risky in the longer term.

Even apart from institutional and cultural effects—which deserve separate, extended treatment—mass low-wage immigration is demoralizing because it amounts to a strategy of replacing and displacing less-skilled American citizens from the workforce with no thought to the broader economic, social, and psychological effects on the workers themselves, their communities, and society as a whole...
 

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They are coming into my country by the thousands. The government and business community want them for cheap labour. They are doing the jobs that Canadians don't want to do. Government literature claims that immigration is important to help us regain our economy after Covid. So, who am I to "blow against the wind?"
 
Canada needs immigration, Canada doesn't have enough people for such a vast area. IMO.
 

If they are immigrating the correct and legal way ... ok
In the US more are not coming that way people all over the world know the southern border is porous.
I find it annoying that so many look the other way as those who came into country illegally can only work 3 ways ...

1. under the table ( tax evasion)
2. forged documents ... ( felony )
3. stolen identity ... ( felony)

only on occasion do the politicians crack down on businesses employing these folks and do some raid .....
when in reality i believe they can charge large fines to any business caught .....

I really dislike the attitude to only enforce laws sporadically and otherwise ignore it.... that is not what oaths say uphold the laws of the land you agree with and otherwise ignore it.
I saw a brutal video of a trucking firm yelling at workers all illegal knowing full well they cannot turn company in for any labor violations etc...

I think it is a disservice to all the legit businesses that have do document and keep records to prove their employees are LEGAL to work here.
I have seen other violations of people just overstaying sometimes by years their original visas ...... many businesses might not realize the person has let their visa expire .... but they are working how else can they live day to day.
 
We need workers. The "help wanted " sign is out in front of every business. And we have lots of "help" knocking at our southern door. I understand some are unraveled by the word "illegal", so we make them legal. Problem solved, we have workers, and we stop the asinine absurdity on our border that been going on for decades. It is idiocy not to understand the depths of desperation that are driving the migration. The new workers are also buyers- people, who want cars , houses, goods, food etc. They help the economy grow. Is this answer for getting workers fair to everybody in the world, probably not, but addressing a true crisis in our workplace, and on our borders may not address everyone's theoretical issues.
 
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We need workers. The "help wanted " sign is out in front of every business. And we have lots of "help" knocking at our southern door. I understand some are unraveled by the word "illegal", so we make them legal. Problem solved, we have workers, and we stop the asinine absurdity on our border that been going on for decades. It is idiocy not to understand the depths of desperation that are driving the migration. The new workers are also buyers- people, who want cars , houses, goods, food etc. They help the economy grow. Is this answer for getting workers fair to everybody in the world, probably not, but addressing a true crisis in our workplace, and on our borders may not address everyone's theoretical issues.
And what about the desperation of the young people in high school and college trying to find unskilled jobs to help support their way through school? We just hang the CITIZENS in favor of those who broke federal law just by being here? Our young people here can't GET jobs for the illegals swarming them with fake ID's
 
And what about the desperation of the young people in high school and college trying to find unskilled jobs to help support their way through school?
There have been times that was the case, but not so today. We have a shortage of those unskilled workers right now, and in most of the US young people looking for work have not trouble finding it.
We just hang the CITIZENS in favor of those who broke federal law just by being here?
That is a problem we need to resolve. It seems to me that we need a temporary work visa that is relatively easy to get, but does not lead to permanent status. Combined with good enforcement to insure employers verify the immigration status of their workers.
Social Security might soon go broke without young immigrants
I think there is a lot of truth to that.
 
There is really a Simple solution to all this... sarcasm.jpg

Secure our national borders,
Detain and expel all illegal aliens,
Declare English the only official language,
Strictly enforce Equal Opportunity, eliminating all discriminatory diversity and equity policies,
Outlaw the teaching or promotion of critical race theory and sex-oriented curricula for children,
Establish a simplified and equitable tax system for individuals and businesses to limit both the
Internal Revenue Service and the impact of lobbyists,
Begin moving federal departments out of Washington D.C. to other locations in the country and
hire local employees,
Rebuild from the ground up, the Department of Justice, the FBI and all intelligence agencies,
Restore energy self-sufficiency,
Maintain a strict constructionist interpretation of the Constitution,
Limit Congressional terms to a total of 12 years either in the House of Representatives or the
Senate or a combination thereof,
All current members of Congress who have exceeded the 12-year limit cannot run for reelection,
Remove all special benefits for members of Congress and government officials beyond those available
to ordinary citizens,
With the exception of funds necessary for the defense of the nation, establish a yearly across-the-board
5% reduction in federal government funding with the immediate elimination of the Departments of Homeland
Security, Energy, Education and the Environmental Protection Agency.
Have a yearly 10% reduction in foreign aid to be reinvested in the nation.

sarcasm.jpg Or maybe wishful thinking.
 
Or
There is really a Simple solution to all this... View attachment 216951

Secure our national borders,
Detain and expel all illegal aliens,
Declare English the only official language,
Strictly enforce Equal Opportunity, eliminating all discriminatory diversity and equity policies,
Outlaw the teaching or promotion of critical race theory and sex-oriented curricula for children,
Establish a simplified and equitable tax system for individuals and businesses to limit both the
Internal Revenue Service and the impact of lobbyists,
Begin moving federal departments out of Washington D.C. to other locations in the country and
hire local employees,
Rebuild from the ground up, the Department of Justice, the FBI and all intelligence agencies,
Restore energy self-sufficiency,
Maintain a strict constructionist interpretation of the Constitution,
Limit Congressional terms to a total of 12 years either in the House of Representatives or the
Senate or a combination thereof,
All current members of Congress who have exceeded the 12-year limit cannot run for reelection,
Remove all special benefits for members of Congress and government officials beyond those available
to ordinary citizens,
With the exception of funds necessary for the defense of the nation, establish a yearly across-the-board
5% reduction in federal government funding with the immediate elimination of the Departments of Homeland
Security, Energy, Education and the Environmental Protection Agency.
Have a yearly 10% reduction in foreign aid to be reinvested in the nation.

View attachment 216954 Or maybe wishful thi

Or maybe just uphold the laws we already HAVE regarding immigration. Yes, we DO have the, but they have been ignored for a couple decades.
 
Tax evasion is a felony too @Jeni and I think it happens more often than forged documents.
The Social security administration has hundreds of thousands of "mismatched SSN " which is often forged made up # for an illegal working ...
also have hundreds of people working over 100 yrs old ..... red flag anyone? .... this is not rocket science to find them ... the government just does not seem to want to.
hundreds of thousands paying INTO..... SS that Can NEVER file for it .... keeps the system going.

The IRS also has many many examples of people using someones ID such as a person who has whole life as a CPA on the west coast but somehow is also working fast food in Detroit ..... I feel the IRS should report to ICE and alert the person whose ID is being used but they DON"T
 
The Social security administration has hundreds of thousands of "mismatched SSN " which is often forged made up # for an illegal working ...
also have hundreds of people working over 100 yrs old ..... red flag anyone? .... this is not rocket science to find them ... the government just does not seem to want to.
hundreds of thousands paying INTO..... SS that Can NEVER file for it .... keeps the system going.

The IRS also has many many examples of people using someones ID such as a person who has whole life as a CPA on the west coast but somehow is also working fast food in Detroit ..... I feel the IRS should report to ICE and alert the person whose ID is being used but they DON"T
Why do we HAVE laws if no one uses them?
 
Why do we HAVE laws if no one uses them?
Exactly ...... my point.... If we are not going to enforce why do businesses have to do all that paperwork which is NOT stopping many from working .... The old I-9 form is more of an honor system then verification.

with people paying into SS for example using a stolen ID .... when the time comes for person to collect do they get amount figured on all the credits paid in by the impostor..... does the SSA know which ones are false?

Why do the various departments NOT work together so a list can be given to ICE and they can go to said businesses .....
the fine when they do raid is substantial
so if FINES were regularly imposed but businesses would be more PROACTIVE in using system like E- verify ...
 
I live in Northern Mexico. I see a tsunami of illegal immigrants who cross the border. The U.S. immigration and customs is a joke. Incredibly easy to evade agents.

Additionally, the San Diego/Tijuana land border crossing, the busiest land border crossing in the world, is an absolute nightmare. If traveling by car, it takes a minimum of 3 hours to get across. Often it takes 5-6 hours of inching forward to eventually get across.
It is normal for there to by a pedestrian line of 3 hours to cross into the U.S.

Once you get across the border into the U.S., you must travel many miles before you see any Americans. The only difference between southern San Diego County and Tijuana is that most of the signs are in English.
 
A key factor in USA for lack of low end employment opportunities for low skilled Americans, high school diplomate, and youth, homelessness, the urban property crime epidemic, endless residential real estate appreciation squeeze at low end, wealth & wage gap, is well described below in ways that will rarely be discussed in most controlled public news media. This first section below is to show we have a problem with significant real numbers. The second section is a snippet from a longer well crafted essay I highly recommend reading. We citizen peons in the middle of the debate are the prey for their media game.

https://www.newamericaneconomy.org/issues/undocumented-immigrants/

Occupations where Undocumented Immigrants Make up the Largest Share of Workers, 2014
Occupation Share of Workers, Undocumented Number of Undocumented Workers
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agricultural Workers (All Types) 36.1% 244,459
Grounds Maintenance Workers 26.7% 266,551
Other Food Preparation and Serving-Related Workers, including School Cafeteria Attendants and Hospital Food Service Workers 25.1% 109,223
Textile, Apparel, and Furnishings Workers 23.1% 120,059
Cooks and Food Preparation Workers 22.6% 470,938
Construction Trades Workers 20.0% 1,066,648
Helpers, Construction Trades 19.3% 6,418
Building Cleaning and Pest Control Workers 19.0% 662,014
Food Processing Workers 18.6% 105,993
I highly doubt many American citizens are clamoring to work in the jobs listed above, especially given the working conditions and wage levels.
Agricultural and landscaping jobs are tedious, hard on the body, and require people to work in harsh weather conditions.
Cooking and food prep is no picnic either. Ditto apparel and textile work, and lower level construction jobs.

Points about racism are likely true, but restricting immigration is very unlikely to move the hearts or minds of racist employers.
 
Additionally, the San Diego/Tijuana land border crossing, the busiest land border crossing in the world, is an absolute nightmare. If traveling by car, it takes a minimum of 3 hours to get across. Often it takes 5-6 hours of inching forward to eventually get across.
It is normal for there to by a pedestrian line of 3 hours to cross into the U.S.
But, but, look at all the time you have then to buy Chiclets. :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
 
I highly doubt many American citizens are clamoring to work in the jobs listed above, especially given the working conditions and wage levels.
Agricultural and landscaping jobs are tedious, hard on the body, and require people to work in harsh weather conditions.
Cooking and food prep is no picnic either. Ditto apparel and textile work, and lower level construction jobs.

Points about racism are likely true, but restricting immigration is very unlikely to move the hearts or minds of racist employers.
You do seem to have a really low opinion of us less well-off citizens. I know many besides myself who have done and would still do those jobs if we could get them. Low pay is better than NO pay, and we KNOW how to actually work and get our hands dirty. And yes, we still give full value for every dollar. I spent 50 years doing ag work of one sort or another, and cooking at a truck stop on weekends. Also spent 4 years running presses at a dry cleaners and doing alterations. I find it a bit disgusting that so many are so unwilling to actually do WORK.
 
More snippets from my above link that addresses recommendations, I'll again suggest actually reading:

What is to be done? First and foremost, our country must redouble its efforts to control illegal immigration. Most effective would be mandating the E-Verify system to ensure employment eligibility of all new hires, as well as finally implementing the biometric entry and exit system, first authorized by Congress in 2002, that would help identify visa overstayers. Without these initiatives, other efforts will prove far less effective. It goes without saying that formidable obstacles, largely political but also practical, exist to making good on these goals, and they will not be elaborated on here. But enforcing the law is a key element of any attempt to tackle the problem.

Second, sharply reducing the legal immigration of low-skill foreign nationals is indispensable to addressing the dysfunction that currently besets our country’s low-wage labor markets. We endorse limiting family-based green cards to the spouses and minor children of U.S. citizens, while moving towards a skills-based immigration system, as T? C? and D? P? proposed RAISE Act would do. Extended family reunification, long the source of chain migration that has drawn millions of low-skill immigrants to the United States, should be eliminated. In addition, Congress should downsize or abolish the temporary worker programs, such as the H-2 visas, that allow American companies to look abroad for workers...

Is there any serious hope that our country will adopt the strategies we advocate here? The situation is not encouraging. Americans are now starkly divided by class in their attitudes toward immigration. As M? K? has said, immigration is not a left-right issue, but top-down. Business interests and economic libertarians in the R? party push for more low-wage labor, while ethnic pressure groups have become a primary constituency of the D?. Both sides embrace an ideology of one-world globalism, which conveniently aligns with their upper-income class interests. This coalition often comforts itself with the belief that mass immigration is not detrimental—and perhaps is even beneficial—to the low-skill Americans with whom the newcomers compete. We beg to differ.
 
Or maybe just uphold the laws we already HAVE regarding immigration. Yes, we DO have the, but they have been ignored for a couple decades.
Been trying that for a while now and it hasn't worked. We have and are deporting a lot of people, just not as many as get in.

The problem appears to me to be at least 2-fold. On the one hand many of these people provide valuable services and our economy would be set back if we deported them all. On the other there are the humanitarian concerns that weaken resolve to enforce.

Different people and camps tend to see the problems very differently. Seems to me as I said some kind of compromise is about the only way to solve this.
 


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