TV Show “Air Disasters”

[oldman]

Yesterday, I decided to watch the show because it was about a plane crash that I was familiar with. The Captain, although he flew for Continental, was a friend of mine. Back in 1987, his flight on a DC-9 took off in the snow from Denver. The plane never got airborne. The NTSB put the blame of the crash on the pilot who was flying, which was the First Officer (F/O). Twenty-eight of the eighty-four passengers were killed, including the Captain, F/O and one F/A.

In my opinion, although the main responsibility of the crash was put on the F/O’s mistakes, there were other mistakes as well. Poor plowing, absent-minded traffic controller and bad judgment on the part of the Captain were all part of the ingredients in this accident. I kept shaking my head as I watched this show and my wife noticed this and said she didn’t know why I watched these shows because I always get upset.

The one thing that I want people to understand is that every airplane accident has never been just one reason why the accident occurred. There is and always has been more than one reason for every accident. Pilot error may be part of an accident, but there has always been other reasons included as to why an accident occurs.

In this accident, the “main” reason this accident occurred was due to pilot error. The F/O had a less than a satisfactory flying record and should not have been piloting this plane under the circumstances. He over-rotated the nose. IOW, he took off at too steep of an angle. After being deiced, he had 20 minutes to takeoff. Instead, he waited 27 minutes to takeoff because the absent-minded traffic controller had forgotten about his plane being inline for takeoff. So, now because he waited so long to takeoff, the wings started to become contaminated with ice. Then, to complicate matters, the F/O takes off at a 6 degrees rate, instead of using only 3 degrees, so that he would have more airflow over the wings. Why the Captain, who had much more experience with flying didn’t catch this, I don’t know. But, these types of errors really upset and irritate me. They just shouldn’t happen and are 100% preventable. No one should have lost their life in this accident.

Most of you that read this post may not understand what I was saying, but I just had to get this out of my system.

 

[Della]

Right now I'm reading "The Day the World Came To Town, " about the little town of Gander Newfoundland, that had to absorb hundreds of transatlantic flights on 9-11 while the U.S. airspace was closed. It's giving me a new appreciation for air traffic controllers and pilots.

I just got to the part where the air traffic controllers were warning the pilots that they wouldn't be able to keep as close track of what's going on so the pilots should, "listen for their proximity alarms and keep looking out the window for other planes." Whew.

 

[Silver Spoon]

I worked at the NTSB for 9 years. I thought we did a great job. We never closed a case without finding the cause of any accident covered under the NTSB. I worked in Investigations, but not as a lead Investigator. I worked in the field with the lead Investigator as his or her assistant and did the paperwork, make phone calls and so on.

 

[Jean-Paul]

check out the fine Pilotes websites and youtube streams of everything avaition related including accident analyse and current news..

747 cargo Cptn. Kelsey...74Gear

737 régional EU, Cptn. Hornbien (?) Mentour Pilot

Accident flight Simulations Alec Joshua Bay

best avaition book...a life as a pilot "Fate is the hunter" by Cptn. Ernie Gann, 1970

So long!

Jon

 

[Nathan]

We've watched the Air Disasters program for years. We'll be flying to Mexico in a couple weeks so we are watching Perry Mason instead.

For sure, there is usually a series or collection of errors(perfect storm) that contribute to many of these air disasters.

 

[Capt Lightning]

One of the worst disasters in the UK was the Kegworth air crash in 1989 when a Boeing 737-400 crashed while trying to make an emergency landing at East Midlands airport in England.
During the flight one of the planes experienced problems in one of it's CFMI engines. On the face of it, the pilots shut down the wrong engine and the defective engine failed totally just short of the runway at East midlands. However, the official investigations and other reports show a long list of failures from lack of pilot training on aircraft fitted with those engines, inconsistent instrument layout, failure of cabin crew to communicate that they knew the wrong engine had been shut down etc...
There is a lot of info on the web, including the official report.

There is a feeling that the pilots who survived the crash, were unfairly blamed for the disaster.

 

[Alligatorob]

I took off from the Denver airport just hours after that happened. They had put barriers up to block view of the wrecked plane but as we took off I could see it... Remember it all too well.

 

[oldman]

check out the fine Pilotes websites and youtube streams of everything avaition related including accident analyse and current news..

747 cargo Cptn. Kelsey...74Gear

737 régional EU, Cptn. Hornbien (?) Mentour Pilot

Accident flight Simulations Alec Joshua Bay

best avaition book...a life as a pilot "Fate is the hunter" by Cptn. Ernie Gann, 1970

So long!

Jon

I know these men. Kelsey is a likable young man. He likes to play a lot of tricks and jokes on the flight attendants and has been warned about it. In the cockpit, he is a true professional that takes his responsibilities serious. He’s a good pilot and I would fly with him.

Mentour Pilot is Swedish. Another excellent pilot. I think he monetizes on YouTube.

Alec Bay wanted to interview me about a United Airlines accident back in the late ‘90’s. I had to tell him that we are not permitted to discuss the details of any accident without the airline’s permission or a subpoena from the NTSB. However, I think him and “The Flight Channel” do the very best recreations of accidents shown on YouTube.

I never read the book mentioned.

 

[oldman]

Right now I'm reading "The Day the World Came To Town, " about the little town of Gander Newfoundland, that had to absorb hundreds of transatlantic flights on 9-11 while the U.S. airspace was closed. It's giving me a new appreciation for air traffic controllers and pilots.

I just got to the part where the air traffic controllers were warning the pilots that they wouldn't be able to keep as close track of what's going on so the pilots should, "listen for their proximity alarms and keep looking out the window for other planes." Whew.

I didn’t fly on 9-11 that year. When the planes in air were ordered to land, ATC was still available. I don’t know why they wouldn’t have been able to complete their jobs. When a pilot gets a aural warning, it can sometimes come as a shock. Like “Pull Up” or “Terrain, Terrain”. These are warnings no pilot wants to hear.

 

[jimintoronto]

Right now I'm reading "The Day the World Came To Town, " about the little town of Gander Newfoundland, that had to absorb hundreds of transatlantic flights on 9-11 while the U.S. airspace was closed. It's giving me a new appreciation for air traffic controllers and pilots.

I just got to the part where the air traffic controllers were warning the pilots that they wouldn't be able to keep as close track of what's going on so the pilots should, "listen for their proximity alarms and keep looking out the window for other planes." Whew.

A slight correction. Gander received about 45 trans Atlantic aircraft, not "hundreds ". Other east coast Canadian airports also received US bound aircraft, such as Halifax, Nova Scotia, Moncton, New Brunswick, Quebec City, Montreal, Toronto, and Ottawa. Those airfields also received Canadian flights coming from the UK and Europe, too. The incoming flights were spread around. JImB.

 

[oldman]

We've watched the Air Disasters program for years. We'll be flying to Mexico in a couple weeks so we are watching Perry Mason instead.

For sure, there is usually a series or collection of errors(perfect storm) that contribute to many of these air disasters.

No worries. Domestic carriers have increased training dramatically. Pilots that now fail their check ride are taken out of the cockpit until they receive additional training in the simulators and then pass a new check ride. The days of having cowboys in the cockpit are over.

 

[oldman]

A slight correction. Gander received about 45 trans Atlantic aircraft, not "hundreds ". Other east coast Canadian airports also received US bound aircraft, such as Halifax, Nova Scotia, Moncton, New Brunswick, Quebec City, Montreal, Toronto, and Ottawa. Those airfields also received Canadian flights coming from the UK and Europe, too. The incoming flights were spread around. JImB.

I only flew into Canada one time. Luckily for the airlines, I always carried my passport. I was in New York and had flown in from LAX. My itinerary called for me to layover and fly to Denver in the morning. The two pilots that were to fly to Toronto were stuck in O’Hare due to heavy snow and they were running 2 hours behind. The airline called me before landing and asked if I would be willing to fly up to Toronto in a B-757. I checked and saw that it was less than two hours, so I agreed to take the flight. All that I remember was how hungry I was and when I got to the hotel, I ordered room service and the food was excellent and even hot. I can’t remember the name of the hotel. It was unfamiliar to me, but the food was great and the service was speedy. Is the airport called Pearson or something to that affect?

 

[jimintoronto]

I only flew into Canada one time. Luckily for the airlines, I always carried my passport. I was in New York and had flown in from LAX. My itinerary called for me to layover and fly to Denver in the morning. The two pilots that were to fly to Toronto were stuck in O’Hare due to heavy snow and they were running 2 hours behind. The airline called me before landing and asked if I would be willing to fly up to Toronto in a B-757. I checked and saw that it was less than two hours, so I agreed to take the flight. All that I remember was how hungry I was and when I got to the hotel, I ordered room service and the food was excellent and even hot. I can’t remember the name of the hotel. It was unfamiliar to me, but the food was great and the service was speedy. Is the airport called Pearson or something to that affect?

Affirmative. Lester B Pearson International Airport. Mike Pearson was one of our past Prime Ministers. A WW1 RFC pilot, show down twice but survived both crashes. In the year after WW2 ended he helped to write the original charter for the United Nations. He was also involved in the Neuremberg War Crimes trial as the assistant prosecutor for Canada. He was the 14th Canadian Prime Minister from 1963 to 1968. Link.Lester B. Pearson - Wikipedia The international code for Toronto is YYZ. Jimb.

 

[dobielvr]

I watched a documentary on Flight 401 last night. The Pilot was trying to fix a light that indicates that the landing gear has been engaged?...and while doing so wasn't paying attention to the altitude gauge, which was descending fast. Crashed, some passengers survived.

This program was investigating for the presence of ghosts that people have been seeing and hearing there in the everglades in Florida, since the crash.

I no longer fly the friendly skies...

 

[Alligatorob]

I no longer fly the friendly skies...

I understand, for some reason most of us fear airplane crashes more than car, bus or train. However the reality is they are the safest way to travel.

 

[dobielvr]

Alligatorob, that's ok...I prefer to keep my feet planted firmly on the ground.

 

[DaveA]

There is (IMHO) an equally tragic and fascinating series, "Disasters at Sea". It describes sinkings of vessels although many only involve the loss of their crews as they are mostly fishing vessels / cargo carriers. In many cases the agony may be spread over days rather than hours in their fight for survival.

 

[Jean-Paul]

I know these men. Kelsey....Mentour....monetizes on YouTube.
Alec Bay I never read the book mentioned.

Bonsoir cher Oldman ! Fine to hear from another AV guy, your à Pilot ? I was in avionics as an engineer, some work in1980s at Boeing, Garmin, Eventide.

Agree on Kelsey and Mentor. Mentour is especially skilled at his business....stream acess, partners, swag. Emphasis on the CRM, Swiss cheese accident coincidence model and current events in avaition.

Suggest you get "Fate is the hunter" by Cptn. Ernie Gann, his journey to become a line pilot for AA,WWII mémoire, 1950s..1960s, to the end of his career. A must read for ever pilot or aspirine pilot! the best avaition biographie ever. Have hard cover and 1st éd 1970.

Safe Flying!

So long,

Jon

 

[moviequeen1]

The show is on the Smithsonian Channel weeknights from 6-7pm,I've watched it a couple of times, its interesting

 

[oldman]

Bonsoir cher Oldman ! Fine to hear from another AV guy, your à Pilot ? I was in avionics as an engineer, some work in1980s at Boeing, Garmin, Eventide.

Agree on Kelsey and Mentor. Mentour is especially skilled at his business....stream acess, partners, swag. Emphasis on the CRM, Swiss cheese accident coincidence model and current events in avaition.

Suggest you get "Fate is the hunter" by Cptn. Ernie Gann, his journey to become a line pilot for AA,WWII mémoire, 1950s..1960s, to the end of his career. A must read for ever pilot or aspirine pilot! the best avaition biographie ever. Have hard cover and 1st éd 1970.

Safe Flying!

So long,

Jon

I was a pilot until the FAA made it mandatory that retirement age was 65 to hold an ATP certificate. Then, I flew for a short time for a rental outfit, which was fun as I was able to fly a brand new Gulfstream 650 ER. What a plane that is. Definitely one of the Cadillacs of the private jets. The avionics were unbelievable and it had every safety feature same as a full size aircraft. I couldn’t have been happier.

The owner of the plane allowed me to use it for personal use for 4 days and I only had to pay for the fuel, so I flew my wife and a few friends to Las Vegas. I had to get a second certified pilot, which wasn’t difficult at all. We had a very good time both in Hawaii and flying that plane.

 

[1955]

A buddy of mine is/was an airline pilot and the thing I noticed about him was he was great with lists and flying but not so good at trouble shooting. So I asked what he does when he has a problem and his response was to fly the problem.

So I’ve watched many of these shows and for the most part the pilots follow their training and depend on the procedures to identify the problem. When that fails as in the case of my buddy you fly the problem. But some pilots in these shows have good trouble shooting skills and are able to figure things out when the procedures have failed them.

I can’t tell you how many times this buddy has called for help when something has gone wrong. One time while in the pump house he called me saying water was spraying everywhere. I told him to go outside & turn off the breaker on the utility pole. He commented why there wasn’t a check off list in the pump house! I thought to myself and this guy’s a pilot.

So it’s great that the NTSB does their thing but it’s all after the fact. Maybe the pilots should be more aware how the planes works and have a little common sense?

 

[Been There]

A buddy of mine is/was an airline pilot and the thing I noticed about him was he was great with lists and flying but not so good at trouble shooting. So I asked what he does when he has a problem and his response was to fly the problem.

So I’ve watched many of these shows and for the most part the pilots follow their training and depend on the procedures to identify the problem. When that fails as in the case of my buddy you fly the problem. But some pilots in these shows have good trouble shooting skills and are able to figure things out when the procedures have failed them.

I can’t tell you how many times this buddy has called for help when something has gone wrong. One time while in the pump house he called me saying water was spraying everywhere. I told him to go outside & turn off the breaker on the utility pole. He commented why there wasn’t a check off list in the pump house! I thought to myself and this guy’s a pilot.

So it’s great that the NTSB does their thing but it’s all after the fact. Maybe the pilots should be more aware how the planes works and have a little common sense?

Pilots are like plumbers. You have good one and not so good ones.

 

[oldman]

A buddy of mine is/was an airline pilot and the thing I noticed about him was he was great with lists and flying but not so good at trouble shooting. So I asked what he does when he has a problem and his response was to fly the problem.

So I’ve watched many of these shows and for the most part the pilots follow their training and depend on the procedures to identify the problem. When that fails as in the case of my buddy you fly the problem. But some pilots in these shows have good trouble shooting skills and are able to figure things out when the procedures have failed them.

I can’t tell you how many times this buddy has called for help when something has gone wrong. One time while in the pump house he called me saying water was spraying everywhere. I told him to go outside & turn off the breaker on the utility pole. He commented why there wasn’t a check off list in the pump house! I thought to myself and this guy’s a pilot.

So it’s great that the NTSB does their thing but it’s all after the fact. Maybe the pilots should be more aware how the planes works and have a little common sense?

Oh, how I dread the word “checklist.” I had 5 checklists to go through just to taxi out to the runway. First thing in the cockpit at 5 a.m. for a 5:45 flight is to turn on the lights for the flight deck. Turn on the APU, so we have power. Call the tower and let them know we are onboard and will soon be ready to go through startup. The tower acknowledges and then for the next 20 or so minutes, we are running checklists, checking our fueling ticket and our weight. Turn on the FMS and make sure the flight plan has been assigned. So far, I have drank two cups of coffee, if my flight attendants have boarded. Don’t ask me how to make coffee. I wouldn’t even know how to turn that piece of equipment on. And by the way, United has good coffee. Also, I had already stopped at Dunkin’ Donuts or Starbucks and got a coffee.

Even before all of this takes place, I take my flashlight and walk around my plane looking for anything that may be loose or looks suspicious. Yeah, maybe even kick the tires. I flew the big birds, so I had a lot of tires to kick. United usually cleaned the inside of the cabin overnight. If you ever board a United plane first thing in the morning, you may smell what I call Mr. Clean because that’s what our cleaning lady uses at our house. Every so often, they even clean the seats and trays.

When I fly, I carry those Clorox or Lysol wipes to wipe off the armrests, tray table and my bag after I remove it from the overhead bin or from the baggage carousel. I learned that from a doctor we had onboard and I noticed him wiping everything down before he sat in his first class leather seat. This was before COVID and I asked him if he thought that it was really necessary to wipe every off. He handed me his business card and introduced himself as a doctor and said that he had Parkinson’s disease and didn’t want to contaminate anything or pick up anything. I told him I thought Parkinson’s disease wasn’t contagious. He told me it wasn’t, but he coughs a lot and he wants to be sure that he isn’t spreading any flu or virus bacteria. I told him he was very thoughtful for doing that. After that, we were having a nice conversation about what he does as a doctor, which he was an Oncologist going to Los Angeles to give a presentation on some newly approved drugs by the FDA. Then, he asked if he could see the inside of our cockpit. He was like a little kid. I think that was something he always wanted to do, but never had the opportunity. He told me I made his day. I let him sit in my seat like I did for the little kids and put his feet on the rudder pedals. He had a lot of questions. When he got back to his seat and sat down, he had a huge smile on his face.

Sorry for the long post. I get carried away when talking about flying.

 

[Been There]

Hi oldman—-Did you fly in the military?