Using Hydrogen for Fuel

Mike

Mike

Well-known Member
Location
London
I don't think that this is a good idea, to do so, commercially,
the only way that I have heard of to get Hydrogen, is to split
water, using electricity, I might be wrong, maybe there is another
way.

I read in the newspaper that there is giant hydrogen extraction
plant being built in Australia, if it successful and gets lots of
hydrogen, then, I think that other countries will follow suit and
build even bigger plants and eventually, we will run out of water,
I know that it won't be in our lifetime, but it will kill the planet.

We can go for a long time without food, but not long without
water.

Something similar can be said about desalination of sea water,
after the process is complete, they return teh salt to the oceans,
again another fatal idea.

At least this is what I think.

Mike.
 

The exhaust of a hydrogen fueled engine is water vapor and some heat. I don't know what the efficiency is (how much water in = how much water out) but it seems like a good alternative to diesel, gasoline, and electric.
 
There are many ways of obtaining hydrogen and I think the largest commercial process involves the reaction between steam and methane. Unfortunately this also produces a lot of CO2.
One of the problems with using hydrogen as a fuel, is storage and transportation. As I understand it, hydrogen has to be kept frozen in liquid form. This gives problems when transporting it from the point of production to the fuel station. It is also rather prone to leakage which is more wasteful than dangerous.

If these problems are solved, hydrogen looks like a good fuel source. It would be quick to tank up and produce no harmful emissions.
 

Thank you both for the helpful replies, as for the water
from the exhaust, Rich, I think that is because when you
split the water, with electricity, you get both hydrogen
and oxygen, so the must cobine again when subject to
ignition, again I have no idea.

Mike.
 
The system efficiency is better than current battery technology and the self-discharge rate (hydrogen leaking, basically) is better as well. It is more of an energy storage medium than an energy source. However it comes with its own challenges of high pressure cryogenic storage and other hazards.

It feels like more grasping at straws for ideas that will win grants and subsidies on the back of climate alarmism.

An Inconvenient Truth: our climate policies can’t save the environment. so what will?| Bjorn Lomborg
 
Hydrogen could become the ultimate renewable pollution free source of power. Solar and wind plants could be built along the coastlines to power the de-salinization of unlimited ocean water. Vehicles could be made with engines using this fuel. The water vaper released would increase the humidity and rainfall. This technology could replace todays pollution producing fossil fuel use.

Fossil fuels will eventually be used up, so hopefully technology will find practical ways to produce and use this source of fuel, in coming decades. Otherwise, future generations will be using horses and buggies.
 
Don M. said:
Hydrogen could become the ultimate renewable pollution free source of power. Solar and wind plants could be built along the coastlines to power the de-salinization of unlimited ocean water. Vehicles could be made with engines using this fuel. The water vaper released would increase the humidity and rainfall. This technology could replace todays pollution producing fossil fuel use.
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This sounds like pie in the sky.

Ignoring the nasty emissions of hydrogen peroxide, ozone, nitrogen oxides, and exotics experienced by current attempts, there is a the nasty sourcing problem. Desalination of sea water is costly with its own waste products, which is why it is barely done anywhere at any real scale.

While in theory it might allow for storage of power captured using wind and solar, the reality is quite different. This is also very costly and dangerous, and the energy density is low meaning great volumes of the gas must be accumulated.

Not to mention all of the problems that are seen now in refueling and carrying useful amounts of hydrogen for either combustion or fuel cell use in vehicles.

You just don't see this anywhere without impractically high subsidies and mandates, the only reason why anyone has ever tinkered with hydrogen vehicles aside from tiny prototype fleets of maybe a dozen vehicles.
 
dilettante said:
This sounds like pie in the sky.

Ignoring the nasty emissions of hydrogen peroxide, ozone, nitrogen oxides, and exotics experienced by current attempts, there is a the nasty sourcing problem. Desalination of sea water is costly with its own waste products, which is why it is barely done anywhere at any real scale.

While in theory it might allow for storage of power captured using wind and solar, the reality is quite different. This is also very costly and dangerous, and the energy density is low meaning great volumes of the gas must be accumulated.

Not to mention all of the problems that are seen now in refueling and carrying useful amounts of hydrogen for either combustion or fuel cell use in vehicles.

You just don't see this anywhere without impractically high subsidies and mandates, the only reason why anyone has ever tinkered with hydrogen vehicles aside from tiny prototype fleets of maybe a dozen vehicles.
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Granted, there are few refueling stations right now. However, both Toyota and Hyundai currently manufacture and sell hydrogen powered vehicles.
 
I don't think we would run out of water, not from burning hydrogen, anyway, because burning it creates as much water as it used to make it. We may run out of water for other reasons, however. The biggest problem right now is that making it is not cost effective. But maybe there is a solution to that.
 
I've thought for a long time that hydrogen will be the next real, big step in providing power. Regarding storage and transportation, if you're curious look up "metal-organic frameworks". There's been a lot going on in that area. Ultimately it will provide a means of transporting and storing hydrogen at practical energy densities, ambient temperatures, and modest pressures.
 
If we want to protect the environment, including creation of energy and exhaust - then why not revert to simple steam?
 
Capt Lightning said:
The hydrogen gas was used for lift, not propulsion. It would not be used now. The Hindenburg was designed to use Helium, but the USA had a global monopoly and it was not available to Germany. The Hindenburg's engines were Diesel powered.
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That helps explain it.
 
We do have hydrogen buses in London, but I have been told
that they are electric and that the hydrogen is used to make
electricity, I believe taht it is blown through a grid of some kind.

Sadly, although I was an electrical engineer, I have no idea how
it is done, some modern methods of electrical generation is, to
me, "Black Magic".

Mike.
Hydrogen Bus.jpg
 
Mike said:
I don't think that this is a good idea, to do so, commercially, the only way that I have heard of to get Hydrogen, is to split water, using electricity, I might be wrong, maybe there is another way.
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I suppose it would depend on where the electricity comes from. Fossil fuels; nuclear; renewables such as wind or solar.

Mike said:
I read in the newspaper that there is giant hydrogen extraction plant being built in Australia, if it successful and gets lots of hydrogen, then, I think that other countries will follow suit and build even bigger plants and eventually, we will run out of water, I know that it won't be in our lifetime, but it will kill the planet. We can go for a long time without food, but not long without water.
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We already burn hydrogen for motive power. About 14% to 16% of gasoline/petrol is Hydroden. Gasoline is described as a hydrocarbon. Not Hydro as in meaning a liquid, but Hydro as meaning Hydrogen. Most of the remainder of gasoline is carbon.

To burn hydrogen its oxidised with oxygen. Hydrogen & oxygen simply become H2O when burned. The amount of H2O on our planet is the same now as it was 1,000 years ago, and will be the same amount in another 1,000 years.

Mike said:
Something similar can be said about desalination of sea water, after the process is complete, they return teh salt to the oceans, again another fatal idea. At least this is what I think.
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There will be little change in the chemical composition of seawater. The water from desalination will always be water, and regardless of what it is then used for, it will ultimately find its way back into the sea. If anything, with the melting of the ice caps, sea water will become less salty.
 
VaughanJB said:
If we want to protect the environment, including creation of energy and exhaust - then why not revert to simple steam?
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I suppose it depends on how we make the steam, and how we create the heat energy to make the steam. Even electricity from nuclear power is steam generated.
 
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Mike said:
We do have hydrogen buses in London, but I have been told
that they are electric and that the hydrogen is used to make
electricity, I believe taht it is blown through a grid of some kind.

Sadly, although I was an electrical engineer, I have no idea how
it is done, some modern methods of electrical generation is, to
me, "Black Magic".

Mike.
View attachment 405538
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If I remember correctly, they use a fuel cell and the hydrogen extraction is done through a Proton Exchange Membrane (PEM). It extracts the hydrogen to power the vehicle, and the remaining product is heat and water.
 
VaughanJB said:
How about, fire? It worked for Casey Jones.
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Although the fire from Casey Jones' locomotive came from a highly inefficient steam engine burning environmentally unfriendly coal. Much of the heat from the fire radiating from the firebox, along with heat radiating out directly from the walls of the boiler and venting up the flue. The heat from the fire not actually doing much work in comparison to how much of it is lost.

Then the inefficiency of having to carry or pull the weight of water along. The water itself in this case not being an energy source; it's just a medium for transferring energy. from the coal to the steam cylinders.
 

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