The Biblical/Historical Justification for Israels current stand?

D

davey

Senior Member
Location
Ozzieland
We have all started from somewhere and sometimes can trace our roots back a few centuries or more. The Jews are no different from us in this respect. They have historical ancient records of their existance from the calling out of Abraham and his instruction to form a God obedient nation. A nation with one god only rather than the many multiple gods and idols already in existance. It certainly was a challenge for Abraham who succombed at the starting line and impregnated his wifes maidservant at the wifes encouragement.

But he perceivered and produced a great nation that often were disobedient and faltering turning away from the laws and rule of Yaweh. But they did survive in the end. Originally historic accounts tell us that they were giving evelastingly large swarthes of land throughout the ME and lost it to other tribes including the Romans. Today they survive on a smaller piece of the orginal holy gift and still they fight to stay and also win back some of what originally belonged to them.

At one point in history the British nation was threatened by take over by the Nazis - WWII was fought for many reason including the defence of its own existance and nationality. This is all the Israelis are doing themselves imo

A fight for sovereignty?
 

fuzzybuddy said:
I don't think the Bible is considered the legal deed to Palestine. Egypt was gift of the gods- Re, Amun, Horas, et al. And Palestine was once a province of Egypt. What happen 1,000s of years ago is history. I think the people, who are living in Palestine, today, are those who will determine ownership.
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you make it sound deceptively simple - but it's not - you sound like ya ready to take bets on the winner? The whole world is debating/discussing and arguing this at different levels from United Nations to East and West - there is a little more to play out yet
 

I agree with you davey; I think many of the residents of the Holy Land think exactly thus...........I am privy to Christian groups operating there; that is their mission; their one true goal. As long as we have so many actors on this stage the more I think they are consciously creating a re enactment, each with his own ax to grind.
 
fuzzybuddy said:
I don't think the Bible is considered the legal deed to Palestine. Egypt was gift of the gods- Re, Amun, Horas, et al. And Palestine was once a province of Egypt. What happen 1,000s of years ago is history. I think the people, who are living in Palestine, today, are those who will determine ownership.
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"The promise of land belonging to the children of Israel is permanent. Even when Israel was expelled from their land, which has happened twice in history, God promised they would return: “Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the LORD your God will gather you and bring you back.

He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it” (Deuteronomy 30:4–5). This promise is part of what is today sometimes called the Palestinian Covenant or the Land Covenant (Deuteronomy 29:1—30:10).

In foretelling the removal of Israel from their land, the Palestinian Covenant anticipated the Babylonian Captivity (586 BC) and the Roman destruction of Jerusalem (AD 70). In both cases, the promise of the covenant held true: the Jews regained their land and their nation in 537 BC and again in AD 1948.

Israel is still in their land, despite the fact that their conquerors, Babylon and Rome, are long gone. All of this reinforces the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that God would establish Israel in their land as His chosen people (Deuteronomy 29:13). The Land Covenant also contains some special promises to Israel that many believe will not be completely fulfilled until the millennial reign of Christ.

According to Genesis 15:18 and Joshua 1:4, the land God gave to Israel included everything from the Nile River in Egypt to Lebanon (south to north) and everything from the Mediterranean Sea to the Euphrates River (west to east). On today’s map, the land God has stated belongs to Israel includes everything modern-day Israel possesses, plus all of the territory occupied by the Palestinians (the West Bank and Gaza), plus some of Egypt and Syria, plus all of Jordan, plus some of Saudi Arabia and Iraq.

Thus, Israel currently possesses only a fraction of the land God has promised; the rest of their inheritance likely awaits the return of the Messiah, Jesus Christ. God has given His word that the nation of Israel will never cease as long as the sun still shines by day and the moon and stars still shine by night (Jeremiah 31:35–37).
 
yes @Rakaia - I take your point the land may biblically and historically belong to Israel as @Lara has clearly illustrated but the bloodshed and death and displacement that has occured for the Palestinian peoples could be argued humanitarial to be totally injust. Maybe only God can rule on that one?
 
Lara said:
"The promise of land belonging to the children of Israel is permanent. Even when Israel was expelled from their land, which has happened twice in history, God promised they would return: “Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the LORD your God will gather you and bring you back.

He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it” (Deuteronomy 30:4–5). This promise is part of what is today sometimes called the Palestinian Covenant or the Land Covenant (Deuteronomy 29:1—30:10).

In foretelling the removal of Israel from their land, the Palestinian Covenant anticipated the Babylonian Captivity (586 BC) and the Roman destruction of Jerusalem (AD 70). In both cases, the promise of the covenant held true: the Jews regained their land and their nation in 537 BC and again in AD 1948.

Israel is still in their land, despite the fact that their conquerors, Babylon and Rome, are long gone. All of this reinforces the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that God would establish Israel in their land as His chosen people (Deuteronomy 29:13). The Land Covenant also contains some special promises to Israel that many believe will not be completely fulfilled until the millennial reign of Christ.

According to Genesis 15:18 and Joshua 1:4, the land God gave to Israel included everything from the Nile River in Egypt to Lebanon (south to north) and everything from the Mediterranean Sea to the Euphrates River (west to east). On today’s map, the land God has stated belongs to Israel includes everything modern-day Israel possesses, plus all of the territory occupied by the Palestinians (the West Bank and Gaza), plus some of Egypt and Syria, plus all of Jordan, plus some of Saudi Arabia and Iraq.

Thus, Israel currently possesses only a fraction of the land God has promised; the rest of their inheritance likely awaits the return of the Messiah, Jesus Christ. God has given His word that the nation of Israel will never cease as long as the sun still shines by day and the moon and stars still shine by night (Jeremiah 31:35–37).
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Interpreting these promises can vary. Some view them as literal, while others see them as symbolic or metaphorical. The context and historical circumstances matter.

The term “Palestinian Covenant” is not commonly used in scholarly discussions. Instead, scholars refer to the covenant in Deuteronomy 29:1—30:10 as the Land Covenant.

This covenant does anticipate Israel’s exile and eventual return. It emphasizes repentance, restoration, and God’s faithfulness (Deuteronomy 30:1-10).

The Babylonian Captivity (586 BCE) and the Roman destruction of Jerusalem (70 CE) are historical events. During these times, Israel faced exile and dispersion.
The post claims that the promise of the covenant held true during these events. While Israel did return after the Babylonian exile, the situation after 70 CE was more complex due to the diaspora.

The post asserts that the land promised to Israel includes everything from the Nile River to the Euphrates River. However, this interpretation extends beyond modern geopolitical boundaries.
Today’s map includes Israel, the West Bank, Gaza, and neighboring countries. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict involves competing claims to this land.

The post suggests that some promises may not be fully fulfilled until the millennial reign of Christ. This view aligns with certain eschatological beliefs.
Interpretations of the millennial reign vary among Christian denominations.

Historical accuracy and faith perspectives often diverge. While historical evidence supports some claims, faith-based interpretations rely on trust in divine promises.
It’s essential to recognize that religious texts serve various purposes: historical, moral, spiritual, and communal. Not factual.

In summary, the Christian post reflects a particular theological viewpoint, emphasizing divine promises and Israel’s significance. However, historical events, geopolitical realities, and differing interpretations contribute to a nuanced understanding. Ultimately, discussions about religious texts involve both historical analysis and matters of faith.
 
davey said:
you make it sound deceptively simple - but it's not - you sound like ya ready to take bets on the winner? The whole world is debating/discussing and arguing this at different levels from United Nations to East and West - there is a little more to play out yet
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If you're saying that this present conflict is merely one episode in a continuing war, which will last for another hundred years, at least; I agree.
 
Paco Dennis said:
In summary, the Christian post reflects a particular theological viewpoint, emphasizing divine promises and Israel’s significance. However, historical events, geopolitical realities, and differing interpretations contribute to a nuanced understanding. Ultimately, discussions about religious texts involve both historical analysis and matters of faith.
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The title of the thread says "Biblical Historical". The Bible is God's Word for Christians.
If individuals want to change the Bible's boundaries then it is no longer God's Word for them.
It's an unbelievers faith Not to believe it. And it's a Christian's faith TO believe it.
Apples and Oranges. And never the twain shall meet.
 
Lara said:
The title of the thread says "Biblical Historical". The Bible is God's Word for Christians.
If individuals want to change the Bible's boundaries then it is no longer God's Word for them.
It's an unbelievers faith Not to believe it. And it's a Christian's faith TO believe it.
Apples and Oranges. And never the twain shall meet.
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Doesn't that describe the New Testament? The first books are God's word for his people, before there was a Christ and Christians.
 
Murrmurr said:
Doesn't that describe the New Testament? The first books are God's word for his people, before there was a Christ and Christians.
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Good question, Murrmurr. But God's people continue to exist beyond the Old Testament and therefore there are words of wisdom and history in the Old Testament to learn from and to gain greater understanding as it leads us to the Gospels in the New Testament. But you are correct that when Christ came we were blessed by the change of The New Covenant (the promise that God will forgive sin and restore fellowship with those whose hearts are turned toward Him and Jesus Christ)
 
Jesus was born in the town of Bethlehem, which, at the time, was in the Roman province of Judaea, which itself was considered to be a satellite of the Roman province of Syria.
 
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Lara said:
The title of the thread says "Biblical Historical". The Bible is God's Word for Christians.
If individuals want to change the Bible's boundaries then it is no longer God's Word for them.
It's an unbelievers faith Not to believe it. And it's a Christian's faith TO believe it.
Apples and Oranges. And never the twain shall meet.
Click to expand...
I agree. I apologize for refuting the Biblical view. I totally had misrepresented this....sorry.
 
Pepper said:
I agree with you davey; I think many of the residents of the Holy Land think exactly thus...........I am privy to Christian groups operating there; that is their mission; their one true goal. As long as we have so many actors on this stage the more I think they are consciously creating a re enactment, each with his own ax to grind.
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I agree with @davey and @Pepper. There is no simple reason for this, nor is there a one size fits all way to control it.
 
Yes. You quoted me where I said "at the time" then your post is "current day", and my post #5 goes into the difference in lengthy detail.
But if what I'm saying doesn't jive with what you're saying, I'm happy to let you have the last word because it doesn't matter to me.
 
fuzzybuddy said:
Let's see if I got this right.......
The Bible says God created Palestine for Jews.
The Quran says Allah created the same land for Islam.
And Christians say what the hell, it's our land too.
So exactly whose god is right?
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It's all the same God and now the 'siblings' are fighting over an inheritance. How tragically grotesque and human.
 


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