Baghdad is falling

Davey Jones

Well-known Member
Location
Florida
Obama's thinking what to do about this. planes,ships,drones or even boots on the ground...again.
So whatta we do about this ?

Some in Washington seems to forget these numbers.
American Deaths
Since war began (3/19/03):
4489
3528

Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) (the list)
4347
3424
Since Handover (6/29/04):
3627
2899
Since Obama Inauguration (1/20/09):
256
128
Since Operation New Dawn:
66
39
American Wounded
Official
Estimated
Total Wounded:
32021
Over 100000
 

This is sad, tragic and scary. But it is NOT a surprise. The politicians that were paid to make educated decisions including planning based on the outcomes of previous historical events and/or endeavors FAILED miserably. But we know the previous administration didn't make a decision executing a personal plan instead.

Hey there was plenty of good that was done and could've been done if planned out & executed properly. And the current events should not take away from the service and accomplishments of the US military-Heroism & sacrifice in spades. But the previous administration leadership FAILED miserably to learn & plan from the recent history of Vietnam, Bosnia/Serbia or the older history of European colonialism including the British's FAILUREs with many middle eastern possessions. But that was typical colonial arrogance thinking/ASSuming every country wanted western civilization. Even Stormin Norman realized the consequences and responsibilities of turning the expulsion of Iraq from Kuwait into a full fledged invasion of Iraq with resources already in place during Gulf War I.

Dictators and police states have failed time and time again in many of these third world countries. Many of these countries have factions that have been battling/feuding for CENTURIES. Occupations literally just delay the inevitable. You need to get a couple of generations away from conflict before many of these countries and people will change their ways.

Again I salute the troops and admire there service, bravery and accomplishments but this is not a surprise nor should it be.

PEACE!
 
I say leave them alone, let them fight their own battles, it was a foregone conclusion, that once the forces started moving out, it was only time before it would all blow up again. There is no peace when you have Tribalism, whether it be religious or otherwise.
 

Those people have been fighting and killing each other for over 2000 years. You can't impose peace on anyone. I think we should get our butts out of there and let them have at it.
 
The Middle East is Northern Ireland writ large. The Sunni/Shiite conflict is a big part of this mess and only the muslims can come to terms with the centuries-old differences between them. Post colonial resentment of the West is another issue and western interventions need to be handled with some degree of finesse. Drones and cluster bombs do not win hearts and minds.

I don't know what is to be done for the best, or even what can be done but I'm inclined to think that working behind the scenery might be the best option because what has been done in the past has only strengthened the hand of the terrorist organisations.

Before the beginning of the Second Gulf War I wrote to our Prime Minister urging him not to commit Australian troops to that conflict. Having seen what had occurred in Afghanistan I considered the inevitable civilian losses to be too high, particularly the toll on women and civilians who always bear the brunt. He wrote back and talked about weapons of mass destruction. I know that Sadaam Hussein was a monster but that was not the reason given for that particular military expedition. Also, the Iraqi people are not that much better off post Hussein. Iraqi Christians have lost any protection that they once had and have had to leave the country.

With what is happening now, the Shiite population will probably be displaced but they should find refuge in Iran. Diplomatic channels to that country should be strengthened to curtail the ISIS influence. That's all I've got to offer.

If America does resolve to attempt a military intervention, our PM will commit Australian troops as well. He is very hairy chested and has just agreed to an expansion of American bases in our north. The Australian Prime Minister has enormous power in this area. He doesn't even have to consult parliament, much less the people. It will actually make him more popular with the electorate and with his low ratings at the moment he certainly could use a boost in popular opinion. Pardon me if I sound cynical but I do think there should be more cogent reasons to send troops overseas to fight than the political situation at home.
 
Obama says chaos in Iraq could endanger U.S. interests

In an appearance at the White House, President Obama said he is reviewing options on ways the United States might help the deteriorating situation in Iraq, and that U.S. interests could be endangered. He said U.S. ground troops will not be sent, adding that ultimately, it is up to the Iraqis to solve their problems.

more
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...2f9-11e3-9ebc-2ee6f81ed217_story.html?hpid=z2
 
re:In an appearance at the White House, President Obama said he is reviewing options on ways the United States might help the deteriorating situation in Iraq, and that U.S. interests could be endangered.

He forgot to mention OIL that the U.s. imports from there.
Get ready for an 8 to 10 cents gas prices increase.
 
Just so he won't pull a Bush and say "BRING IT ON!" and make up lies about WMD... Ultimately it will be the real powers behind the throne who will determine if we are going to 'help' out again or not. I hope and pray NOT.
 
So do I because where America leads militarily Australia tags along.
We, the people of OZ, have absolutely no say about it.

Our military is keen to go, the government becomes more popular, at least in the early stages, and the media has a field day of gung ho patriotism and sells a lot of papers and advertising space.

Later, when soldiers blood has been spilled it is considered unpatriotic to be at all negative.
 
I don't think the news reporting is explaining just how serious this threat from ISIS is.. they are more violent than any other group, beheading people and I shutter to even say it, but they are killing people in the way Christ died.

They are also extremely well funded, when they took over the banks in Mosul they obtained 237 million dollars to further fund their progression of horrors.

THEY ARE OUR MOST SERIOUS THREAT TO WORLD PEACE SINCE WW2, AND THEY MAKE AL QUADA LOOK LIKE WIMPS.
 
The West should NEVER have invaded Iraq in the first place, is was a BIG MISTAKE. As bad as Saddam was, their misguided actions have left it in a worse mess than it was before!
 
I don't think we should have invaded Iraq.

However:

1 ) you can't say that is the reasons the Islamists have become more dangerous, that's like blaming the Jews doe the for angering the Germans and causing the holocaust.


2) Perhaps it would be helpful to study a bit more about the recent history of the Islamic terrorists and what their goals are.

3) Things in the world and the Middle East are entirely different than they were when we invaded Iraq...
and it has to be examined in light of those many changes.


New day new time, and perhaps our deadliest enemy yet to come out of the terrorist communities..is ISIS

They are extremely RICH

Well armed , well organized and deadly.

What is the solution ?

I haven't a clue certainly not invading any country, but people need to have their awareness raised of these new threats to Democracy.

In our New world, there is no such thing as" Those threats are over there, and we are over here."

It no longer works that way, unfortunately
 
Ive been very suspicious of any President that says "no U.S. boots on ground",its just as bad as saying "mission accomplished".
 
The Islamists are not beheading people en masse, crucifying people, and marching into Baghdad because we invaded Iraq !

Please read some history and stop blaming the victims for the horrors of the terrorists..

it was after all 9/11 that started all of this,

Don't forget about that !
 
I heard this morning that they are spilling out from Syria into Irag. The Sunnis are ganging up on the Shia.
This does not seem like terrorism. It is more like a grab for power and part of a regional civil war.
It will go on until one side or the other wins or until both sides are exhausted and depleted IMO.
 
Some people would describe bunker busters, smart missiles, daisy cutters and drones as terrorism too.
Especially if they have been aimed at you and you are not a militant.
However these, and savage reprisals/executions, are just different methods of waging war.

IMO terrorism is bombing a plane, a railway station or an embassy.
The targets are symbolic and mostly affect civilians.

Syria has long been a worry but for some reason has been left alone to make mischief in Lebanon for decades.
To understand what is going on it would probably be informative to see a map showing predominant Sunni vs Shiite regions.
The Sunnis are the majority sect.

Elysabeth, do you have a reference for the crucifixions? I haven't seen a report on this yet.
 
"However these, and savage reprisals/executions, are just different methods of waging war"


So Rapes, beheadings and crucifixions are just another way of waging war...????

You have GOT to be kidding.

These things are an abomination by ANY standards !
 
War is an abomination and civil wars are the worst.

However I remember stories of crucifixions during WW II and a bit or research indicates that it does happen.

History of Crucifixion
Persia and Alexander
Crucifixion probably originated with ancient Persians. There is evidence, that captured pirates were crucified in the port of Athens in the 7th century BC. Alexander the Great introduced the practice throughout his empire. He once crucified a general who disagreed with his campaign plans.

Roman Empire
Romans adopted the custom from Carthage and used it for slaves, rebels, and especially despised enemies and criminals. Condemned Roman citizens were usually exempt from crucifixion except for high crimes against the state, such as treason. The Romans used it during the Spartacus rebellion, during the Roman Civil War, and the destruction of Jerusalem. Crucifixion was considered an ignominious way to die.

A common prelude was scourging, which would cause the victim to lose a large amount of blood, and approach a state of shock. The prisoner then usually had to carry the horizontal beam (patibulum in Latin) to the place of execution, not necessarily the whole cross. Crucifixion was typically carried out by specialized teams, consisting of a commanding centurion and four soldiers. When it was done in an established place of execution, the vertical beam (stipes) was sometimes permanently embedded in the ground. The victim was usually stripped naked. The "nails" were tapered iron spikes approximately 5 to 7 in (13 to 18 cm) long with a square shaft 3/8 in (1 cm) across.

The Romans often broke the prisoner's legs to hasten death. Burial afterwards was not usually permitted. In some cases, the nails were gathered afterwards and used as healing amulets.

Emperor Constantine abolished crucifixion in the Roman Empire, when Christianity became the state religion.

Islamic world
Some medieval Muslim rulers used crucifixion sporadically.

Medieval Japan
Crucifixion was used in Japan before and during the Tokugawa Shogunate. It was called Haritsuke in Japanese. The victim—usually a sentenced criminal—was hoisted upon a T-shaped cross. Then, executioners killed him with spears. The body was left to hang for a time before burial.

Mesoamerica
There are some reports that, after the Spanish conquest of Mesoamerica in the 16th century, some natives performed human sacrifice by crucifixion due to their superficial understanding of Christianity.

Modern crucifixions
Crucifixion, while rare in recent times, was used at Dachau during the Holocaust and in a number of wars, such as in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge and during the Sino-Japanese war, where it was used among the many methods of torture and execution used by Japanese soldiers against Chinese civilians--largely in emulation of medieval Japanese military practices.

During World War I, there were persistent rumors that German soldiers had crucified an Allied (Canadian) soldier on a tree or barn door with bayonets or combat knives. The event was initially reported in 1915 by private George Barrie of the Canadian First Division, as follows:

"On 24 April at St Julien I saw a small party of Germans about 50 yards away. I lay still and in about half an hour they left. I saw what appeared to be a man in British uniform. I was horrified to see that the man was literally crucified, being fastened to the post by eight bayonets. He was suspended about 18" from the ground, the bayonets being driven through his legs, shoulders, throat and testicles. At his feet lay an English rifle, broken and covered with blood."
The event supposedly happened to, according to a Red Cross Nurse and multiple testimonies from men of the same unit, a Harry Banks of Canadian 48th Highland Regiment. This story was widely used in the black propaganda of the time, together with a similar rumor that Germans had bayoneted Belgian babies. Such rumours made for highly graphic and disturbing pictures and were ideal for helping to demonize the enemy.


After the war, investigators tried to determine the veracity of the story of the crucified soldier, but it was inconclusive.

There are persistent stories that crucifixions continue to occur in certain parts of Africa, particularly in Sudan.

http://www.thenazareneway.com/details_history_of_crucifixion.htm

More info here: http://www.shestokas.com/guest-commentary-reflections/the-criminal-penalty-of-crucifixion-2/

Crucifixion in the Modern World
Though of ancient origin and brutal in its application, crucifixion has survived to modern times in parts of the world. German soldiers are said to have crucified a Canadian during World War I. In Japan it was used for prisoners[6] during World War II. Crucifixion as a criminal punishment remains as part of Iran’s Islamic Criminal Law. Crucifixion survives as part of the penal code in Sudan. In March, 2013, a man convicted of armed robbery in Saudi Arabia was sentenced to be crucified for three days.

This refers to the events I remembered about WW II and a bit more about what is happening now

There were also cases where Japanese soldiers crucified people in World War Two.
The best documented is that of three Australian prisoners of war working on the Thailand-Burma railway, who were sentenced to death for killing cattle. Bound to a tree, only one of them survived - Herbert James "Ringer" Edwards, who became the inspiration for the character Joe Harman in Nevil Shute's novel, A Town Like Alice.

Disturbing photographs recently emerged from Syria showing the bodies of two executed men hanging on crosses.
Why has a punishment used in ancient Rome now emerged as a feature of Syria's civil war?

The dead men in the photographs are blindfolded - their limp, outstretched arms tied to planks of wood with green string.
A banner wrapped around one of the bloodied corpses reads: "This man fought against Muslims and set off an explosive device here."

The photos show a handful of people, including children, taking a closer look while others go about their normal business in the northern city of Raqqa, unfazed by the bodies suspended a few feet away. The bodies remained on display in the centre of a roundabout for two days according to the UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights. A jihadist group, the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIS), is thought to have been responsible.

As with a similar case in Raqqa in March, the men are thought to have been executed first, before being attached to crosses and publicly displayed.

Amnesty International also documented a case of crucifixion in Yemen in 2012, when an Islamist group found a 28-year-old guilty of planting electronic devices in vehicles, enabling US drones to track and kill their occupants. He too was executed first and hung on a cross afterwards.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27245852
 
I feel that this is less terrorism; more tribalism.

This type of mass executions, rape, and killing of civilians has been going on in sub-Saharan Africa for years.
remember Ruanda?
also in republic of Congo, at present, and Sudan and south Sudan ; civilians are being killed in their thousands, and hundreds of thousands are displaced.

However; not much oil in the Congo...although there are precious metals...
 
I see it as little different to the practice of displaying heads on spikes in medieval England as a warning to others. It was always meant to be a deterrent to those who would defy authority.

IMO, the Islamic world is at least 500 years behind the West, notwithstanding the civilised veneer of the educated classes.
 


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