I wonder if they can actually mandate the vaccine...

911 said:
REALLY??

https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/mandatory-vaccination-legal-time-epidemic/2006-04
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I don't know what vaccines most Boomers had before starting kindergarten. Probably only smallpox (I still have a tiny scar) and maybe DPT (diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus). Not all kids got the latter shot because I remember families who had whooping cough (pertussis) in the late 50s and recall their houses being quarantined.

Polio, measles, mumps, German measles (rubella) mumps, chicken pox and other vaccines came along after I started Kindergarten in 1957.

I vividly recall everyone in the neighborhood lining up at the local high school to get our polio sugar cube vaccine doses.

p.s. Thank you for the fascinating link on the legality of enforced vaccinations!
 

JaniceM said:
Real liberty for all cannot exist if each individual is allowed to act without regard to the injury that his or her actions might cause others; liberty is constrained by law.

We were taught that in the 5th grade.
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I totally agree with this statement.

Most people are relying on the 14th Amendment to allow them to be able to forego being vaccinated, but the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled on this twice and in both cases ruled that to prevent a pandemic from happening within the country, the government may mandate that all citizens be vaccinated. It's a done deal.

I think people that rely on Newsweek, or other publications, or even any of the news channels should try looking up supreme court rulings. I believe they have ruled on just about everything at one time or another. There has been way too much political involvement with the virus being used as a hatchet in attempt to get favors from voters.
 
StarSong said:
I don't know what vaccines most Boomers had before starting kindergarten. Probably only smallpox (I still have a tiny scar) and maybe DPT (diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus). Not all kids got the latter shot because I remember families who had whooping cough (pertussis) in the late 50s and recall their houses being quarantined.

Polio, measles, mumps, German measles (rubella) mumps, chicken pox and other vaccines came along after I started Kindergarten in 1957.

I vividly recall everyone in the neighborhood lining up at the local high school to get our polio sugar cube vaccine doses.

p.s. Thank you for the fascinating link on the legality of enforced vaccinations!
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I had to have the one that leaves the scar on my left shoulder, which I believe was for Smallpox. The school would not allow a child to attend that did not show their scar or the certificate.
 
911 said:
I totally agree with this statement.

Most people are relying on the 14th Amendment to allow them to be able to forego being vaccinated, but the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled on this twice and in both cases ruled that to prevent a pandemic from happening within the country, the government may mandate that all citizens be vaccinated. It's a done deal.

I think people that rely on Newsweek, or other publications, or even any of the news channels should try looking up supreme court rulings. I believe they have ruled on just about everything at one time or another. There has been way too much political involvement with the virus being used as a hatchet in attempt to get favors from voters.
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Ouch. I was merely presenting a publication with a different opinion than what was presented by Mr. Dershowitz.

I stand by what I said though. I do not see 50 states mandating Covid-19 vaccines, particularly not 20 minutes after big pharma and the FDA deem them safe and effective. Any state that did would see tremendous push-back from their citizens.

Mandated vaccines would wind up back in the Supreme Court with a slightly new wrinkle from the decision made 115 years ago.

Vast numbers of Americans won't don masks when out in public, nor stay 6 feet from strangers, avoid parties, bars or other social gatherings. I think it's delusional to imagine they'll willingly roll up their sleeves to get injections they mistrust. Mandate or no mandate.

Please understand that I am not anti-vaccine. I get them all, including the latest 2 dose shingles vax, pneumonia vax, etc. I would wait a short while if a COVID vaccine came out. Long enough to feel comfortable that the vax was safe, just as I have with other new vaccines.

I'm merely observing the state of our country and considering the likelihood that a mandated vaccine would be trusted or graciously accepted by our population. We have developed healthy, well-founded mistrusts of government and big pharma. So we won't be happily lining up as we did for polio sugar cubes.
 
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StarSong said:
Ouch. I was merely presenting a publication with a different opinion than what was presented by Mr. Dershowitz.

I stand by what I said though. I do not see 50 states mandating Covid-19 vaccines, particularly not 20 minutes after big pharma and the FDA deem them safe and effective. Any state that did would see tremendous push-back from their citizens.

Mandated vaccines would wind up back in the Supreme Court with a slightly new wrinkle from the decision made 115 years ago.

Vast numbers of Americans won't don masks when out in public, nor stay 6 feet from strangers, avoid parties, bars or other social gatherings. I think it's delusional to imagine they'll willingly roll up their sleeves to get injections they mistrust. Mandate or no mandate.

Please understand that I am not anti-vaccine. I get them all, including the latest 2 dose shingles vax, pneumonia vax, etc. I would wait a short while if a COVID vaccine came out. Long enough to feel comfortable that the vax was safe, just as I have with other new vaccines.

I'm merely observing the state of our country and considering the likelihood that a mandated vaccine would be trusted or graciously accepted by our population. We have developed healthy, well-founded mistrusts of government and big pharma. So we won't be happily lining up as we did for polio sugar cubes.
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No, no. I wasn’t arguing with you, just wanted to define a better resource for getting correct information. I have too much respect for you to do that. I notice that some posters use Newsweek, which at one time had a very good reputation for being centrist in politics, but has now gone in a different direction like so many other news outlets. Besides, I have always thought that going to the source to get my information worked better.

I am a Libertarian, so I have to be more careful when stating what I know to be true. Last nigh, for example, I was speaking to an old friend and we were discussing the virus. A lady nearby overheard us talking and she said to her husband (I think) “A couple more Democrats that have no clue.” We looked at each other and just shook our head and rolled our eyes.

I noticed that a lot of people do not like Mr. Dershowitz, but if they ever heard him speak, I am sure that they would change their mind. He is a very good orator.
 
911 said:
No, no. I wasn’t arguing with you, just wanted to define a better resource for getting correct information. I have too much respect for you to do that. I notice that some posters use Newsweek, which at one time had a very good reputation for being centrist in politics, but has now gone in a different direction like so many other news outlets. Besides, I have always thought that going to the source to get my information worked better.

I am a Libertarian, so I have to be more careful when stating what I know to be true. Last nigh, for example, I was speaking to an old friend and we were discussing the virus. A lady nearby overheard us talking and she said to her husband (I think) “A couple more Democrats that have no clue.” We looked at each other and just shook our head and rolled our eyes.

I noticed that a lot of people do not like Mr. Dershowitz, but if they ever heard him speak, I am sure that they would change their mind. He is a very good orator.
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He's managed a lot of legal cases in Los Angeles. I have great respect for his intelligence and grasp of Constitutional Law.
 
win231 said:
$5.00? fine? They'd have to get the $5.00 out of me by force. And it would be the hardest $5.00 they ever earned.
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They'd just ultimately throw you in jail for contempt; or record a judgment for the $5.00 plus fees and costs and slap a lien against your property; or send out the sheriff to execute against any property you had; or all of the above.

You really can't win against a Supreme Court order -- there's nobody left to appeal to unless you've got God's zip code.
 
Butterfly said:
They'd just ultimately throw you in jail for contempt; or record a judgment for the $5.00 plus fees and costs and slap a lien against your property; or send out the sheriff to execute against any property you had; or all of the above.

You really can't win against a Supreme Court order -- there's nobody left to appeal to unless you've got God's zip code.
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"Contempt?" LOL!!! That would be the least of their worries.
This ain't Nazi Germany. Nobody vaccinates or drugs me without my consent.

I just recalled a similar topic from 20 years ago.
My job sent me to a medical facility for an MRI. While I was waiting to go into that tunnel, a nurse approached with a tray with a needle & IV equipment. I asked, "What's that for?"
She said, "You need to be sedated for the MRI."
I asked, "Why?"
She said, "You must not move during the MRI."
I said, "Sedation won't be necessary; I won't move. I had an MRI previously without sedation & I didn't move."
She said, "Well, if you move, we would have to start the MRI over, so we need to sedate you."
She obviously wasn't getting the message, so I put it more clearly for her.
I said, "You're not listening to me, so let me put it this way: "The first person who comes near me with IV equipment after I've said "no" will be permanently sedated by me."
She got the message & said, "Uh...well....you don't have to be that way....we can do the MRI without sedation.....if you want."
 
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win231 said:
"Contempt?" LOL!!! That would be the least of their worries.
This ain't Nazi Germany. Nobody vaccinates or drugs me without my consent.

I just recalled a similar topic from 20 years ago.
My job sent me to a medical facility for an MRI. While I was waiting to go into that tunnel, a nurse approached with a tray with a needle & IV equipment. I asked, "What's that for?"
She said, "You need to be sedated for the MRI."
I asked, "Why?"
She said, "You must not move during the MRI."
I said, "Sedation won't be necessary; I won't move. I had an MRI previously without sedation & I didn't move."
She said, "Well, if you move, we would have to start the MRI over, so we need to sedate you."
She obviously wasn't getting the message, so I put it more clearly for her.
I said, "You're not listening to me, so let me put it this way: "The first person who comes near me with IV equipment after I've said "no" will be permanently sedated by me."
She got the message & said, "Uh...well....you don't have to be that way....we can do the MRI without sedation.....if you want."
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Apples and oranges.
 
win231 said:
Nope. Medical procedure, drug, vaccine. The topic was "Can or can't mandate."
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Whether a hospital can mandate being medicated as part and parcel of a procedure they're offering, versus whether a state government can mandate a vaccine are indeed apples and oranges.

That said, I have also successfully declined medications and procedures while hospitalized. They sure don't take kindly to it, do they? (Darn those patients thinking they have rights over their own bodies!)
 
StarSong said:
Whether a hospital can mandate being medicated as part and parcel of a procedure they're offering, versus whether a state government can mandate a vaccine are indeed apples and oranges.

That said, I have also successfully declined medications and procedures while hospitalized. They sure don't take kindly to it, do they? (Darn those patients thinking they have rights over their own bodies!)
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One time I was in on an overnight stay & the facility wanted me to take a med for blood clots. First of all....I had not idea if I could take it or not. Never had it before. Secondly I asked the nurse why I couldn't just get up & walk. I wasn't injured & hadn't had any procedures. She sounded surprised & asked "you want to?" I was like yeah instead of a pill.
 
MarciKS said:
One time I was in on an overnight stay & the facility wanted me to take a med for blood clots. First of all....I had not idea if I could take it or not. Never had it before. Secondly I asked the nurse why I couldn't just get up & walk. I wasn't injured & hadn't had any procedures. She sounded surprised & asked "you want to?" I was like yeah instead of a pill.
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Every pill/procedure/test is a bill to Medicare. That's why they're encouraged whether they're necessary or not; unless a patient says "No." Most don't because they aren't aware of the motivation.
 
win231 said:
Every pill/procedure/test is a bill to Medicare. That's why they're encouraged whether they're necessary or not; unless a patient says "No." Most don't because they aren't aware of the motivation.
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Sometimes no doesn't cut it either.. and it can also occur when a person is self-pay.
One stupid experience I had: I noticed a pregnancy test was on the itemized bill- AFTER I'd been asked if I might be pregnant and replied definitely not! But they did the test anyway, and tried to charge me for it!!!
 
StarSong said:
Whether a hospital can mandate being medicated as part and parcel of a procedure they're offering, versus whether a state government can mandate a vaccine are indeed apples and oranges.

That said, I have also successfully declined medications and procedures while hospitalized. They sure don't take kindly to it, do they? (Darn those patients thinking they have rights over their own bodies!)
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Hey, I once got an angry lecture from a nurse when I politely declined a prescription from a doctor who wanted me to take thyroid medication, because my thyroid level was "borderline low." No symptoms at all. I think we are all somewhat overmedicated, and will not take anything without being given a good reason for it.

Anyway, this nurse was horrified that I had dared question the judgement of his holiness. I found another doctor.
 
Sunny said:
Hey, I once got an angry lecture from a nurse when I politely declined a prescription from a doctor who wanted me to take thyroid medication, because my thyroid level was "borderline low." No symptoms at all. I think we are all somewhat overmedicated, and will not take anything without being given a good reason for it.

Anyway, this nurse was horrified that I had dared question the judgement of his holiness. I found another doctor.
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Their egos often are a problem. After doctors at Kaiser sent my mom home with gas pills twice, I noted her fever & I could see a bulge in her night gown on her right side. I took her back to Kaiser & I said to the doctor, "Have you checked her for appendicitis?" He replied, "What medical school did you graduate from?" She was later rushed into surgery after her appendix burst. She could have died.
 
Sunny said:
Hey, I once got an angry lecture from a nurse when I politely declined a prescription from a doctor who wanted me to take thyroid medication, because my thyroid level was "borderline low." No symptoms at all. I think we are all somewhat overmedicated, and will not take anything without being given a good reason for it.

Anyway, this nurse was horrified that I had dared question the judgement of his holiness. I found another doctor.
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Right on for standing your ground with this!!!!
There are simply too many people who don't even consider questioning an option.
 
Sunny said:
Hey, I once got an angry lecture from a nurse when I politely declined a prescription from a doctor who wanted me to take thyroid medication, because my thyroid level was "borderline low." No symptoms at all. I think we are all somewhat overmedicated, and will not take anything without being given a good reason for it.

Anyway, this nurse was horrified that I had dared question the judgement of his holiness. I found another doctor.
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I feel they often shove too many pills at people when they get older instead of trying to find other ways to help us through stuff. Luckily my doctor is perfectly ok with me trying to lose weight get my A1C under control on my own rather than trying to talk me into medicine I'm trying to avoid.
 

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