Political posturing over the CIA investigation is nothing new!

Ralphy1

Ralphy1

Well-known Member
Does anybody remember the Church Commission of the seventies and what they put the then director of the CIA, Bill Colby, through? The history of CIA "sins" from that period is eerily similar to those of today: torture, assassinations, secret prisons in foreign countries, etc., etc., etc. We have to accept who we are and stop saying this is not who we are...
 

I agree... Americans are a violent, vicious bunch. I didn't used to think so, but lately, I've seen a "blood lust" expressed that I've never noticed before. Americans like to see people punished and abused. At least that how it appears. It seems we just like it and take a smug satisfaction in the feeling that someone is getting what WE think they deserve.
 
I think that it is more an attitude of protect us at any cost rather than a blood lust...
 

Ralphy1 said:
I think that it is more an attitude of protect us at any cost rather than a blood lust...
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After much reading of the history and machinations of these various conflicts, I would suggest that it goes further than 'protect us' as the attitude that QS has indicated seems more to have caused the problems that abound in the world today.


Ken, you need to ask yourself why these terrorists have become so angry that they are moved to do the things that they do. Aside from the issues of religion being an oft times motivator of evil (Spanish Inquistition, Crusades, etc.) what has America done in the Middle East that may have caused the hatred. America seems to think it can keep feeding the attack dog and then is shocked when it slips the chains that 'bind' it and turns on it's 'master'.

And maybe too Ken, the average American who has been brought up on a diet of 'exceptionalism' is feeling a certain level of embarrassment that their government has orchestrated an environment that isn't safe for them or others. Maybe that's where the 'outrage' you speak of is coming from.
 
Yes, yes, beheadings and water boarding are the evils that nations have employed over time tp protect and promote there interests. Nothing new here, folks. In fact, the army was water boarding insurgents in the Philippines at the beginning of the 20th century...
 
I think that people are beginning to wake up to the hypocrisy of telling the world that one is exceptional, always just, always fair, always honest, when in fact, the world knows behaviours that are anything but. In my experience there has always been a fair amount of anger towards the Japanese in the second WW because of their abuses of POW's and so on, and yet, it would seem that the same kind of attitude and behaviour is somewhat acceptable in the American military both back then and today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II

The following link: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014...cific-purpose-producing-false-propaganda.html is an interesting piece on the encouragement of Rumsfeld and Cheney to 'push harder' when the CIA wasn't giving them the desired connections between Al Quaeda and Iraq. It also talks at length about the probability of gaining false confessions but that those were used nonetheless to further the agenda of Rumsfeld and Cheney, et al.
 
It's not just the torture and waterboarding... It's the fact that we are the ONLY so called "Civilized" nation that still has the death penalty.. AND so many Americans are just fine with that... and wish we would execute MORE. Texas, who just loves to kill people is praised and applauded. Also, look at the people that are just okie dokie with police brutality... WAY WAY beyond the scope of the so called offense.. THEY LOVE IT... they defend it.. and sorry... they seem to get a little leg tingle from it. If that's not blood lust.. What is? Follow all that with the ridiculous "Stand Your Ground" laws.. which are nothing more than a legal way to kill someone you don't particularly like or want around you.. AND people stood behind a moron like George Zimmerman.. No.. we are a vicious bunch..
 
Ralphy1 said:
You should see my arsenal and torture chamber... :cool::cool::cool:
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I'll bet... like handcuffs too? and whips... ??

So... I'll even expand my premise for the mean spiritedness and viciousness of Americans. How many are against helping anyone.. particularly other Americans? How many resent food stamps, or Welfare... or union benefits? Heck... how many, even folks on this forum and against not just poor people, but middle class people having healthcare in anyway subsidized? How many would rather see people starve than get any assistance, because of a resentment that perhaps someone is getting something they are not. IS that not in a way blood lust? or just meanness? So much of this makes me ashamed to be in the same country. But heck.. I'm not leaving.. let them...
 
The difference between our perspectives is small but significant I guess QS. I see a 'global village' and you see America....and the rest of the world. When I point out the failings of America (sometimes easier to see as an outsider because I'm not 'blinded' by the rhetoric of patriotism), it's not in a vacuum as I'm all too aware of the 'sins' of the other countries, including my own, having put in a lot of time looking at all of this.

It may be irritating to you that I do note those bad acts, but while you may be somewhat aware of them, many absolutely aren't. And if you aren't going to talk about them openly, then it becomes necessary for others to educate. When I say educate, I also make a distinction between just offering opinions and real information. The only way anything ever changes is if these things are dragged out into the light of day and examined closely. This whole issue of Americans torturing people is one of those instances.

This has been going on for decades according to that one comment by Ralph and for decades, the average American has laboured under an illusion of exceptionalism and apparently an inability to understand why America has gotten such a bad reputation that culminated in 9/11. Why I even remember when I was a teen, that it was commonly thought for safety's sake, that Americans would do well to identify as Canadians if they were travelling via the trusty thumb, overseas. So it would seem that the animosity has a longer history than just since 2001. Maybe now that one branch of your government has brought the whole torture issue out into the light of day, people will begin to understand why the animosity.

And certainly, there are wonderful attributes that have always encouraged foreigners to try to come to the US, but maybe that's more a case of choosing the lesser of two evils inasmuch as many of those other countries are that much worse when it comes to opportunities and police/military brutality or even environmental issues that make starvation a possibility.

Most countries are made up of good and bad. What we all need to do is build up the good and strip away those things that don't bring benefit and including the well being of people in other countries. When we start taking care of the next guys situation in a positive way, they are encouraged to 'pay it forward'. But if all any one country/group does is strip away what they can from others, those people will also be encouraged to 'pay it forward' and terror can be the result.
 
Well and good Debby... however, don't look for an apology for my looking at things through my "American lens".. I admit it... and I'm proud of it. I am more than capable of seeing the faults of my country and my fellow Americans.. but like with any family... especially a hugely dysfunctional family as we are.. we can say those things, but are not particularly enthused with outsiders saying it.. Especially when it feels like bashing or insults.
 
QuickSilver said:
Well and good Debby... however, don't look for an apology for my looking at things through my "American lens".. I admit it... and I'm proud of it. I am more than capable of seeing the faults of my country and my fellow Americans.. but like with any family... especially a hugely dysfunctional family as we are.. we can say those things, but are not particularly enthused with outsiders saying it.. Especially when it feels like bashing or insults.
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Never said I was looking for an apology, but I've been thinking of this a little through the day and it seems to me that if the USA is going to go into countries all over the world and cause mayhem, you might as well get used to non-Americans speaking out against it. It's not like the abuses are occurring in a vacuum you know. People are being harmed and killed by the thousands because of your governments policies and agendas. And let me remind you, I'm only talking about what is on the record (and I include links every time) and I don't think I've every stooped to the level of insults for the sake of insults.
 
But the fact that the US is the largest contributor to the UN and it's missions of mercy mean nothing at all to far too many. That the US has also been one of the largest contributors to the UN's policing efforts means nothing either. Some of those bad folks that cut off folks heads are among those the UN really would like quelled so the US and some of the European folks are attempting to stop them at this moments. Should we not include their countries names in this tirade against the US? I suppose we could end all this head cutting off stuff if we all just ended our personal religions and change to which ever not true Muslim religion these throat cutters follow.

This entire thread so far is totally out of line with reality and honesty about the way our country is run. Unfortunate that some folks think a few out of the 300 million folks in the US speak for all. It just is not so at all. What I am reading here so far is not of our Constitutional ways or our Constitutional government or the way most of our people do live. We do have some folks out of order and it is not our government of today or of the coming years. Making judgements comes from our courts and not from any bar room discussion as some seem to think. The current comments come from one group and not even looked at by other groups in the US. Therefor we have a document possibly filled with errors and finger pointing and not a fair hearing as we are supposed to get if on trial. Time will tell us if what has been said is true or not. As I see it, many of the accusations were of events many years past and no longer part of the operations involved in stopping the Muslim attempts to attack the US.

Time for some to back off the hatred showing and either join the political groups to help the US find the correct ways or settle in and try to make the best of what you have to work with. Lies, distortions, hatred, are not good tools for leading the way.
 
BobF said:
But the fact that the US is the largest contributor to the UN and it's missions of mercy mean nothing at all to far too many. ......... Lies, distortions, hatred, are not good tools for leading the way.
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No one is disputing the good actions of any country including the US. The problem is that the other side of the 'American involvement coin' means that millions have died as a direct result of American intervention in countries around the world. Those lives mean something. Afghani lives, Iraqi's, Libyans, Cambodian, Vietnamese......

When you point to ISIS, you like so many, ignore the support and funding and training that they and other terrorist groups have gotten from the US.

“Key members of ISIS it now emerges were trained by US CIA and Special Forces command at a secret camp in Jordan in 2012, according to informed Jordanian officials,” writes William Engdahl. “The US, Turkish and Jordanian intelligence were running a training base for the Syrian rebels in the Jordanian town of Safawi in the country’s northern desert region, conveniently near the borders to both Syria and Iraq. Saudi Arabia and Qatar, the two Gulf monarchies most involved in funding the war against Syria’s Assad, financed the Jordan ISIS training.” http://www.globalresearch.ca/establ...asset-story-dismissed-as-snowden-hoax/5395835


And yes Bob, a few speak and act for the millions in America. You might not be declaring war on anyone personally, but your government has a habit of doing it. As far as the 'American Torture' findings, those were apparently based on an intense perusal of 6,000 documents and at least one country, Poland, has stated that the US had a CIA 'black site' within its borders and at least a dozen or more other locations, including Jordan, Israel, Qatar, Saudi Arabia to name a few are suspected of hosting those CIA secret prisons.

If you are so concerned about lies, distortions and hatred, perhaps you should be contacting your representatives and telling them that you are in favour of treating other countries with the same kind of respect that the US would like to be a recipient of. Bringing the truth of your country's own actions to you, is not because I or anyone hate you. Your country is one of the largest in the world, and it's aggression has the potential to end life on this planet at this point. Would you like for everyone to sit down and shut up while the agenda proceeds? I would think that we all have a vested interest in discussing the impact that your country has had and can have on the world.
 
Ralphy1 said:
Does anybody remember the Church Commission of the seventies and what they put the then director of the CIA, Bill Colby, through? The history of CIA "sins" from that period is eerily similar to those of today: torture, assassinations, secret prisons in foreign countries, etc., etc., etc. We have to accept who we are and stop saying this is not who we are...
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Torture and black ops will be part of most country's unofficial playbook. Does it make it right-no. Should we try to stop it-yes. People forget but I think was the CIA that experimented on people with LSD and dispersed radiation in the NY subway I think to see how far radiation would spread. The US government did things like the Tuskegee experiments. For the so called greater good governments will do and rationalize everything.
 
Debby said:
No one is disputing the good actions of any country including the US. The problem is that the other side of the 'American involvement coin' means that millions have died as a direct result of American intervention in countries around the world. Those lives mean something. Afghani lives, Iraqi's, Libyans, Cambodian, Vietnamese......

When you point to ISIS, you like so many, ignore the support and funding and training that they and other terrorist groups have gotten from the US.

“Key members of ISIS it now emerges were trained by US CIA and Special Forces command at a secret camp in Jordan in 2012, according to informed Jordanian officials,” writes William Engdahl. “The US, Turkish and Jordanian intelligence were running a training base for the Syrian rebels in the Jordanian town of Safawi in the country’s northern desert region, conveniently near the borders to both Syria and Iraq. Saudi Arabia and Qatar, the two Gulf monarchies most involved in funding the war against Syria’s Assad, financed the Jordan ISIS training.” http://www.globalresearch.ca/establ...asset-story-dismissed-as-snowden-hoax/5395835


And yes Bob, a few speak and act for the millions in America. You might not be declaring war on anyone personally, but your government has a habit of doing it. As far as the 'American Torture' findings, those were apparently based on an intense perusal of 6,000 documents and at least one country, Poland, has stated that the US had a CIA 'black site' within its borders and at least a dozen or more other locations, including Jordan, Israel, Qatar, Saudi Arabia to name a few are suspected of hosting those CIA secret prisons.

If you are so concerned about lies, distortions and hatred, perhaps you should be contacting your representatives and telling them that you are in favour of treating other countries with the same kind of respect that the US would like to be a recipient of. Bringing the truth of your country's own actions to you, is not because I or anyone hate you. Your country is one of the largest in the world, and it's aggression has the potential to end life on this planet at this point. Would you like for everyone to sit down and shut up while the agenda proceeds? I would think that we all have a vested interest in discussing the impact that your country has had and can have on the world.
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I hate to say this, but lady... you are really honking me off... How do you KNOW that we don't? I do ALL THE TIME... However... each and every one of us are only represented by 3 people... TWO Senators... and ONE House Representative... I call my three regularly. I also call the White House comment line.. I also vote in every election. I have called Harry Reid's office and John Boehner's office. Would you also like me to put on some sack cloth and lay in a bed of ashes? I'll give you the numbers and YOU can call them too..

Now I am getting a tad sick and tired of your insults and harping on this topic. You sound like a broken record... and it's become tiring. I would hate to put you on ignore, because many times you have something of value to say..... But this? not so much.
 
Sorry Debby, but your rant is so far off reality that it is insulting to all US folks that know better. Yes, over the years we have been meeting different agencies in different countries for various reasons. Just that the US met some folks years back and now they have organized into an international terrorist group is not due to the US meetings at all. That is some really poor thinking on your part. The millions killed by various mid east groups, including ISIS, does not mean the US is doing all that killing around the world. You want to blame some country for the millions killed, look to Iran and it's puppet warriors that are running around in the middle east and killing anyone that disagrees with their ways. Look to what has happened to Palestine for example and how much grief has been given to Israel. All by the killers Iran has supported for many years. Now we have ISIS trying to subdue Iraq and other areas. These are not the US running around and killing others. You might want to look to Russia for hidden support of them and filling the need for weapons they use to kill peaceful people in the middle east. The US is actually on watch for the middle east killers to arrive in the US and start killing innocent people for no good reasons at all. Now for you, maybe not a problem right now but if they do invade the US, then Canada is next. So be a little bit alert to what is happening and forget your mistaken finger pointing at the US.
 
Well said BobF.
Debs; Ken, you need to ask yourself why these terrorists have become so angry that they are moved to do the things that they do. Aside from the issues of religion being an oft times motivator of evil (Spanish Inquistition, Crusades, etc.)
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'oft times motivator' that has to be the understatement of the year.
 
BobF said:
Sorry Debby, but your rant is so far off reality that it is insulting to all US folks that know better. Yes, over the years we have been meeting different agencies in different countries for various reasons. Just that the US met some folks years back and now they have organized into an international terrorist group is not due to the US meetings at all. That is some really poor thinking on your part. The millions killed by various mid east groups, including ISIS, does not mean the US is doing all that killing around the world. You want to blame some country for the millions killed, look to Iran and it's puppet warriors that are running around in the middle east and killing anyone that disagrees with their ways. Look to what has happened to Palestine for example and how much grief has been given to Israel. All by the killers Iran has supported for many years. Now we have ISIS trying to subdue Iraq and other areas. These are not the US running around and killing others. You might want to look to Russia for hidden support of them and filling the need for weapons they use to kill peaceful people in the middle east. The US is actually on watch for the middle east killers to arrive in the US and start killing innocent people for no good reasons at all. Now for you, maybe not a problem right now but if they do invade the US, then Canada is next. So be a little bit alert to what is happening and forget your mistaken finger pointing at the US.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone CIA funded mujahadeen fighting Russians in Afghanistan

http://www.globalresearch.ca/how-thatcher-helped-pol-pot/5330873 USA support of Khmer Rouge in Cambodia

http://www.globalresearch.ca/americ...ebels-defeated-by-syrian-armed-forces/5334827 USA supports Al Nusra terrorists who are fighting Syria

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554 USA installed a neo-Nazi government in Ukraine (prior to the most recent election)

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info (take note of the banner and the numbers of dead in Iraq because of America)

Then there's Vietnam and Libya to account for.



Bob, I understand that hearing ones country has been implicated in millions of deaths around the world is a hard thing. Especially when it is the opposite of what your own government tells you. But the documentation is there and I'm just pointing out what others have discovered and gone on record with.

American Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland who famously said "F*** the EU" has stated that your country supported the Ukraines neo-Nazi's to the tune of $5 billion. And now Joe Biden's son, Hunter Biden is now on the Board of Directors of Ukraines largest gas producer, Burisma Holdings and American Natalie Jaresko, previously in the State Department, just gave up her American citizenship so that Poroshenko could appoint her as Ukraines new Finance Minister a few minutes later. Ukraine now has numerous American corporations at work there, Cargill, Monsanto, John Deere and Eli Lilly to name several. America set out to destabilize Ukraine in their effort to 'fence in' Russia and they've used money, terrorists, and now corporations and (American) appointees to positions of power in Ukraine. And thus far over 4,000 have died in Ukraine at the hands of their own government and this government change is what the American administration began orchestrating at least as far back as 2013.

Russia didn't invade Crimea. You've swallowed the kool-ade. Crimea had a referendum that saw upwards of 90% of their population voting and of them around 82% voted to return to Russia. When was the last time Canada or the US had that kind of turn out? And by the way, what happened in Crimea (re: the vote) is exactly what happened in Kosovo and the only difference is that the Kosovo vote was supported by the US because it served their purpose at the time whereas this doesn't serve the American agenda so the propaganda was dished up on a golden platter and people like you imbibe without hesitation or question.

You know what the problem is? I find all these links from legitimate, credible (sometimes ex-government, ex-CIA individuals) and you don't read them. And that's fine, your choice, but seriously to attack me because of what others who are political experts are saying doesn't hurt me at all. I actually expect it. The 'messenger' always takes a beating but it doesn't change the message at all.

Just to show that I'm not worried about your judgement (because I'm not the source of the info) I could give you dozens of links that support everything I've said. Can you provide one that refutes any of it that isn't direct from the White House?
 
QuickSilver said:
I hate to say this, but lady... you are really honking me off... How do you KNOW that we don't? I do ALL THE TIME... However... each and every one of us are only represented by 3 people... TWO Senators... and ONE House Representative... I call my three regularly. I also call the White House comment line.. I also vote in every election. I have called Harry Reid's office and John Boehner's office. Would you also like me to put on some sack cloth and lay in a bed of ashes? I'll give you the numbers and YOU can call them too..

Now I am getting a tad sick and tired of your insults and harping on this topic. You sound like a broken record... and it's become tiring. I would hate to put you on ignore, because many times you have something of value to say..... But this? not so much.
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Oh relax. This is a discussion remember? I don't know what you do in contacting your representative, just like I don't know what Denise or Whatinthe or BobF or any of you actually do. It's sort of a general 'you' when I challenge 'you' to write, send emails, contact your representatives.

I'm glad that you contact your reps. Good for you. But my point is, not everyone does. My mom for example prides herself on being politically astute but she never contacts anyone, just whines and complains when things don't work out like she thinks they should. So when I talk politics it has become a general practise to encourage everybody to be involved and not just when they check the box if you know what I mean.

I have to say though, that the one message that is coming through loud and clear from you is that even when your government does things that impact anyone else, anywhere else in the world, because I am not an American, you expect me to just button it and keep my mouth shut. Is that about it? So let me ask you this, if America is going to start working hard on cleaning up the environment and so on (re: fossil fuels), and Canada's tar sands continued to be developed and the effects of the toxins in the air began to drift down and affect Idaho and Montana and North Dakota, would you expect to be able to complain or even contact the governments of Alberta and Saskatchewan who are pumping their toxic air into the jet stream for inhalation by American citizens? Or would you just button it and keep your mouth shut?
 

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