Electricity, Cars & Costs

Jules

SF VIP
If you have a car that needs charging, do you live in an area where the cost of electricity is low? Some places have various prices based on the time of day. If there’s a shortage of electricity, it doesn’t seem practical to me.

If there are rolling blackouts, does that mean no charging?

What are the advantages of an electric car? They don’t pollute, but how is the electricity created? That’s not pollution free.

If you have to charge while travelling, the delay must be frustrating.

It’s unlikely I’ll ever have an electric car for practical reasons. Between the interior of BC and getting to the coast, it would be too risky to have no place to charge in the event that we were stuck because of a snow storm or accident. It’s not uncommon.

A big advantage would be the quiet.
 

I'n not opposed to electric cars per se but I don't think that they're as 'green' as some people would think. Firstly, they are still built pretty much as a normal car - metal, plastic, rubber etc... the real difference is the engine. That needs a battery and that needs lithium which has to be mined, processed, made into batteries and shipped to the car manufacturing plant.

The generation of electricity may not be such a problem, but installing the charging infrastructure may prove very costly.
It's all very well having a battery that can be charged quickly, but only if you have a charging point that can deliver the necessary power. I don't know about the USA, but in the UK, most houses are supplied with 240 Volts which is fused at 100 amps. The distribution circuit is at best 40 amps for an induction cooker ie 9.6 kW. Using a similar domestic circuit would take overnight to fully charge an average sized car. Even a Tesla 'supercharger' would take half an hour or more.

Noise - yes, they could be so quiet, so you wouldn't hear them coming when you stepped out in front of one - splat!
 
You have a good point Jules, electric cars don't pollute but the electricity with which they are charged is still produced, in the main, by burning fossil fuels.

Long distant travel in an electric car is, as you describe, frustrating. It's simply not practical and the price of electric cars in comparison to one driven by an internal combustion engine is beyond the reach of many.

Who knows what the future holds? Just over thirty years ago I saw a fellow carrying a satchel over his shoulder, in it was a battery almost the size of a car battery, on top of the battery was a phone cradle. This was his phone, which was truly mobile in that it wasn't plugged into a socket anywhere, but the size of it and it still had a rotary dial. Compare that to what we see in today's cell phones.

Will the future of electric cars develop in a similar way? Could it be possible that instead of putting a fuel nozzle in the car, you simply swap the batteries for freshly charged ones. That type of car battery is yet to be invented of course but as we have seen with phones, necessity is the mother of invention.
 

The idea of exchanging battery packs has already been suggested. The main problem probably lies in the difficulty of agreeing a standard size, capacity and fitting mechanism of a battery that will fit all cars.
 
I'm for anything that gets me down the road. I don't have an affinity for pistons & gas, nor batteries. Either technologies comes with its own set of pollution problems. We are at the beginning of the electric car age, even though they've been around for over a hundred years. It's the same as finding a gas station for your Ford in 1903.

By the way, I've always thought that exchanging batteries in cars wouldn't work. Has anybody thought of a "liquid" battery? You drive up to the station. Your used battery liquid is drained, and recharged battery fluid is injected into your car. ????
 
I would like to see more research being done in Hydrogen powered vehicles. It seems, to me, that they would be a more practical and less costly way to provide transportation in the future...with minimal pollution. In order to go "all electric" our power grid would need to be expanded substantially to supply the billions of KWH's needed.
 
I agree about hydrogen power - either to power conventional petrol engines or electric motors via a hydrogen fuel cell.
Of course hydrogen comes with it's own problems, primarily with transportation and storage of the liquid gas. At least it would be quick to 'fill up'. I'm also not sure about the economics of producing hydrogen. Commercially, hydrogen is mainly produced from natural gas, but if, say, you made hydrogen by electrolysis, then why not just use the electricity to charge a battery?
 
Commercially, hydrogen is mainly produced from natural gas, but if, say, you made hydrogen by electrolysis, then why not just use the electricity to charge a battery?

What if a process to collect hydrogen from Water was used? The only "by product" would be oxygen....which could be released into the atmosphere....then, recombined with the hydrogen during combustion, to recreate Water, Talk about a Zero Sum means of creating power...I can't think of anything better.
 
What if a process to collect hydrogen from Water was used? The only "by product" would be oxygen....which could be released into the atmosphere....then, recombined with the hydrogen during combustion, to recreate Water, Talk about a Zero Sum means of creating power...I can't think of anything better.
Why are you not knocking on the door of the Patents Office?
 
Yes, generating electricity pollutes - but not anywhere near as much as running an ICE (internal combustion engine; e.g., gasoline-powered) auto. Especially as coal becomes less and less used by utilities, who continue to switch to natural gas and renewables.

Fully half of the smog generated in CA is solely from ICE vehicles. So moving to electric or hybrids helps tremendously.

CA also generates an increasing percentage of its energy from renewables; it's mandated by law. We have at times reached 100% generation from renewable energy, although usually it hovers around the 60+% mark.

250-300 mile batteries are now common in a majority of electric cars. When was the last time you took at 300-mile trip? The truth is, most people simply do not drive very far at any one time. On a daily basis the average, even in CA, is less 50 miles a day.

On a 240-volt recharger you can recharge an electric car in 6-10 hrs - much less if your car has a 'supercharge' function, similar to Tesla. Tesla can supercharge a 110+ mile range in less than 20 minutes.

Most people recharge their vehicles at home. If you have solar panels, and/or rates are lower at night, charging will cost you much less than gas, even though our local utility has some of the highest electricity rates in the US.

Instead of guessing at assumptions, there are several free calculators on the Web that will allow you to plug in various data to help figure out if it's worth buying an electric/hybrid car.

Electric cars have a much lower overall maintenance cost than ICE or even hybrids, btw. But they do drive and brake differently, so one needs to get used to it. Not difficult, though.

GM has already announced it will not make any ICE cars after 2035. European car mfgs are moving there even faster; I do not expect any of them to offer ICE vehicles after 2030.

Three Electric S.U.V.s With Tesla in Their Sights
Test-driving Volkswagen’s ID.4, Ford’s Mustang Mach-E and Volvo’s XC40 Recharge: The green turf where Tesla has dominated for so long is poised to grow crowded.
NY Times April 22, 2021
3 All Electric SUVs aim at Tesla

(excerpt) An electric trickle is turning into a flood: As many as 100 new E.V. models are coming to showrooms by 2025. Heavyweights including Volkswagen, General Motors and Ford are floating promises of all-electric lineups within a decade.

The end times of gasoline can almost seem a fait accompli, except for one pesky issue: Even given Tesla’s strides, we’re still waiting for the first genuine E.V. sales hit, let alone a mass exodus from unleaded.

In 2014, Nissan sold a mere 30,200 Leafs, and that’s still the American record for any non-Tesla model. Ford routinely sells more than 800,000 F-Series pickups. A single gasoline sport utility vehicle, the Toyota RAV4, finds well over 400,000 annual buyers, compared with roughly 250,000 sales last year for all E.V.s combined — 200,000 of which were Teslas.

Automakers insist we’re “this close” to a tipping point. E.V. market share is expected to grow to as much as 50 percent by 2032, from just 1.7 percent last year, said Scott Keogh, president and chief executive of Volkswagen of America. While Tesla captured 80 percent of the U.S. market for electric vehicles in 2020, VW and other global giants — with war chests built on internal-combustion engines and unmatched scale and manufacturing know-how — are well positioned to take a piece of Tesla’s pie.

“There’s never been a competitive consumer product that sits at 80 percent market share” for long, Mr. Keogh said.

Globally, Volkswagen is poised to pass Tesla as the world’s biggest electric vehicle seller as early as next year, according to Deutsche Bank, with Europe and China its key markets. In America, where the brand remains an underdog, VW and other legacy automakers are concentrating fire on the sales fortress of compact S.U.V.s: Models like the RAV4, which deliver roughly four million annual segment sales.
 
One aspect of moving towards electric vehicles that I haven't seen being discussed is....how will these vehicles contribute their fair share towards maintaining the roads and bridges??? Presently, most States rely primarily on a fuel tax to generate the revenue needed to maintain the roads. Since electric cars don't need gas, they don't contribute to these funds....even though they are just as heavy and cause just as much wear and tear as a gas car.

What I would like to see is a "Miles Driven" tax to replace the current fuel taxes. That way, every time a vehicle hits the road, it pays it's fair share...no matter how it is powered.
 
Good point about the income derived from gas. In BC, it’s about 44 cents per litre.
 
While electric vehicles may not emit any carbon dioxide during their working lives, there must be some concern about what happens when they reach the end of the road, in particular what happens to the batteries.
In 10 to 15 years there will be large numbers coming to the end of their life, it's going to be very important to have have a recycling industry.
While most EV components are much the same as those of conventional cars, the big difference is the battery. Traditional lead-acid batteries are widely recycled, the same can't be said for the lithium-ion versions used in electric cars.
EV batteries are larger and heavier than those in regular cars and are made up of several hundred individual lithium-ion cells, all of which need dismantling. They contain hazardous materials, and have an inconvenient tendency to explode if disassembled incorrectly.
 
Much more sensible option ( in my opinion) at this point in time to invest in a hybrid. I already have one which I am selling to upgrade to another hybrid (present from hubby).
🏎️🏎️🏎️
 
Just a quick diversion; I would like to install solar panels on my property/roof. However, to do so I have to tie into and contribute to the county solar farm. Instead of coming off the grid, I would join a different grid and taxed for electrical consumption. I don't see how I would benefit substituting tea for tat and getting the same results.

There are very few clean energy incentives for homeowners to convert to solar powered energy, although I probably would if financial gain was a worthy incentive.
 
....how will these vehicles contribute their fair share towards maintaining the roads and bridges??? ....What I would like to see is a "Miles Driven" tax to replace the current fuel taxes. That way, every time a vehicle hits the road, it pays it's fair share...no matter how it is powered.
Excellent point. There is a lot of discussion in CA about passing a "user tax" on all electric and hybrid vehicles to replace the unmet fuel taxes. I personally think that's a fair idea and most people do; it's just a nagging question of how much should it be?

Some people drive a lot and some don't. But no one, not even insurance companies, strictly monitors how many miles each individual driver drives in a year. Certainly you wouldn't want a senior who drives once a week and does errands, to have to pay the same as a commuter who drives 40+ miles one-way to work each day......but how would you tell the difference without invading privacy?

So far, the general consensus is to tie it to yearly registration fees -- but again, there is no way to discern individual mileage habits.

The question regarding battery recycling is interesting, as there are two main types used. I Googled and found this, which is very recently updated:

Can Electric Car Batteries Be Recycled?
HowStuffWorks by: Kristen Hall-Geisler | Updated: Apr 15, 2021

Happily, the answer is yes -- the batteries that power electric cars (and hybrids, for that matter) can be recycled. For decades, the few electric vehicles that were on the road were powered by lead-acid batteries. The latest models, with their lighter weight and longer range, use lithium-ion batteries, just like laptops and cell phones. In either case, the batteries that power electric cars can be recycled.

In the case of the older-technology lead-acid batteries, 96 percent of the materials in the battery -- including the nasty lead -- is recovered. To compare, only 38 percent of the material in glass bottles is recovered in the recycling process. They can also be recharged and reused before being recycled. Hybrid cars currently on the road, like the Toyota Prius, use nickel metal hydride batteries, which can be dismantled and recycled in much the same way.

When the battery packs in a lithium-ion-powered vehicle are deemed too worn out for driving, they still have up to 80 percent of their charge left. So before they ever get to a recycling center, these batteries are used to prop up the grid, especially alongside energy sources that may not be quite as steady, like wind or solar power. The batteries can store power to help the flow of electricity stay on an even keel rather than ebb and flow with the weather.

Since lithium-ion battery-powered cars are just now coming to the mass market, the recycling centers that can reclaim their components are still in their infancy, too. Toxco, a big lead-acid battery recycler, is set to open the first lithium-ion battery recycling plant in the U.S. Companies like Tesla Motors, which has had lithium-powered electric sports cars on the road for a couple of years now, already sends its spent batteries to Toxco's current facilities for recycling.

When lithium-ion batteries reach a recycling plant, there are two ways to pulverize them. If they are completely without a charge, they're simply shredded so that the metal components, like copper and steel, can be easily sorted out. If the batteries could still possibly have a charge, though, they're frozen in liquid nitrogen and smashed to frozen bits (cool!). The liquid nitrogen is so cold, the batteries can't react, so the smashing is safe. And probably fun. Then the metals are separated out for reuse.
 
Some people drive a lot and some don't. But no one, not even insurance companies, strictly monitors how many miles each individual driver drives in a year. Certainly you wouldn't want a senior who drives once a week and does errands, to have to pay the same as a commuter who drives 40+ miles one-way to work each day......but how would you tell the difference without invading privacy?
Without invading privacy? Every transaction that is not cash, be it debit or credit card or, as many prefer, by pointing their phone at a gizmo and not forgetting the ubiquitous loyalty card, every single transaction that is not cash, is logged and profiled. Privacy? Tell that to George Orwell.
 
There are definitely articles available that talk about areas where buying an electric car isn't a great environmental option because the bulk of the electricity is generated by coal plants. Places like the Pacific Northwest where a lot of the electricity comes from hydroelectric facilities have very low pollution from electricity generation. They also tend to have lower electricity prices so that lowers the cost of an electric vehicle.

I've had an electric car and I've had a hybrid. The electric car was a Leaf with a top range of 85 miles, but I never got that much because at highway speeds the range is lower. I only took a few trips where I had to recharge the car before returning home and made sure I was doing something for a few hours while it charged. It wasn't an issue generally.

The hybrid had an electric range of about 55 miles and I used that up several times but then gas could kick in to get me where I wanted to go. I rarely used gas. I drove it just over 7000 miles in 3 years due to a very short commute and the pandemic. I would estimate I only put about 500 miles of non/required gas miles on the car. In order to prevent the gas from getting "stale" one had to use up the tank yearly. Also the car ran for about 10 to 15 minutes every 30 days to maintain the engine.

Out here electricity was much cheaper than gas even if I recharged during peak electricity times. I found it was easily less than half of what it would be for gas and may have been around 1/4 of the price of driving an efficient gas car the same distance.

BTW we have a lot of electric vehicles in our area and I have never had one "sneak up on me." It's easy to hear them coming down the road from the tire noise alone.

If the Tesla were about 10K cheaper I'd have one of those. I've even thought of getting a used Leaf as a commuter vehicle because it was great for that for me.

Around here the other advantages of EVs are better parking places and dedicated parking.
 
One aspect of moving towards electric vehicles that I haven't seen being discussed is....how will these vehicles contribute their fair share towards maintaining the roads and bridges??? Presently, most States rely primarily on a fuel tax to generate the revenue needed to maintain the roads. Since electric cars don't need gas, they don't contribute to these funds....even though they are just as heavy and cause just as much wear and tear as a gas car.

What I would like to see is a "Miles Driven" tax to replace the current fuel taxes. That way, every time a vehicle hits the road, it pays it's fair share...no matter how it is powered.
You will probably see more and more states doing what Arkansas now does. Electric vehicles here now have an extra $200 attached to the renewal tags. Hybrids have $100.
 


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