In the UK they say the children going to prison will double, and total smacking ban needed

[grahamg]

Two news stories took my eye in the UK in the last week, one concerned considerations in our government for a total smacking ban to be imposed upon parents, whilst at the same time another prediction being made by some government body is that the numbers of children being sent to prison is likely to double in the next couple of years!

Maybe I've got this wrong, but further undermining decent parents, (our current government position on smacking being "its okay as long as it doesn't leave a mark", which seems fair to me), is proposed at the same time as some appalling behaviour must be on the increase, requiring jail time for young people/children, at no doubt vast cost, with little prospect I'd guess that it will do anyone any good!

Maybe we've got something wrong here, in our " child's best interests" social policies, leading to ever weakening roles for parents, (and you'd have to say the total exclusion of so many of us, especially dads).

 

[Murrmurr]

I totally agree that government unreasonably interferes in parenting, but it's obvious to me that certain movies, video games and music, and easy access to drugs and alcohol also contribute to kids turning bad.

 

[grahamg]

I totally agree that government unreasonably interferes in parenting, but it's obvious to me that certain movies, video games and music, and easy access to drugs and alcohol also contribute to kids turning bad.

All those things have to play their part, but my response whenever anyone mentions trouble young folks are experiencing far too much of is "who actually loves that child"?, (and excluded loving dads, or some mums, ain't able to show their love, or take any real responsibility).

Not that my child was ever likely to succumb to the list you've given us, and she received plenty of love without mine, I know that too, but if she'd never had any love from me, as I'd say my ex wife would have maybe preferred, (so much did she do to exclude me), then things might not have turned out so well for her.

BTW I learned yesterday I'm a grandfather again, another boy, though I didn't know my daughter and her husband were expecting again, (no surprise on that score however!).

 

[Lavinia]

I still find it strange how downright stupid politicians are. They know very well that our prisons are overflowing, there is a backlog of criminal cases waiting to be heard; yet they can't see the connection between the lack of discipline and guidance, and the increase in lawlessness.

 

[Trish]

I think, if you are committed into custody in the UK and you are under eighteen, you are sent to a secure unit for young people rather than a prison.

I have never understood the belief that smacking a child is a positive form of punishment and prevents poor behaviour in the future. Surely a child who is exposed to physical punishment is more likely to grow into an aggressive adolescent?

 

[win231]

I think, if you are committed into custody in the UK and you are under eighteen, you are sent to a secure unit for young people rather than a prison.

I have never understood the belief that smacking a child is a positive form of punishment and prevents poor behaviour in the future. Surely a child who is exposed to physical punishment is more likely to grow into an aggressive adolescent?

As a child of a parent who took out her frustrations by beating her kids (under the cloak of "discipline,") I couldn't figure out why I behaved the way I did in elementary school. I'd find a kid who was smaller than me & beat him up. By the time I was older, I realized that I was only doing what my idiotic mother taught me - that it's OK to hurt others as long as they're smaller & weaker than you.
Yes, parents who hit their kids are just plain ignorant.

 

[Pepper]

BTW I learned yesterday I'm a grandfather again, another boy, though I didn't know my daughter and her husband were expecting again, (no surprise on that score however!).

That breaks my heart to hear. The same thing has been happening to me concerning my nephews, their marriages, their children, all of which I only learned about through other sources. We were once very very close. I understand how truly painful such a situation is.

 

[Em in Ohio]

I see a difference between smacking a child on the rear and beating a child. All children are different, even within the same family. Some never need more than a stern look. Others may need a different approach. None of the friends that I grew up with who got an occasional smack on the behind turned out abusive. My mother was a harping, hateful person who constantly abused my father and me mentally. I often wished she would just smack me and be done with it.

 

[grahamg]

That breaks my heart to hear. The same thing has been happening to me concerning my nephews, their marriages, their children, all of which I only learned about through other sources. We were once very very close. I understand how truly painful such a situation is.

Not so painful now because I've decided the system is at fault, not my daughter per se, (just a system that allows one parent to dominate the situation more than they should).

 

[Pepper]

Not so painful now because I've decided the system is at fault, not my daughter per se, (just a system that allows one parent to dominate the situation more than they should).

I disagree. I think your daughter is being mean and thoughtless, and I credit my nephews with the same feelings, so I am not picking on her.

For goodness sake, when happy events occur we tell almost everyone, and for your daughter to ignore the grandfather of her children.........unless............no, I don't think you're a pervert or anything horrible...........is a cruel thing to do. I'm really outraged for you, and for me, whether you want me feeling anything or not.

I'll stop now before I start ranting.

 

[grahamg]

I disagree. I think your daughter is being mean and thoughtless, and I credit my nephews with the same feelings, so I am not picking on her.

For goodness sake, when happy events occur we tell almost everyone, and for your daughter to ignore the grandfather of her children.........unless............no, I don't think you're a pervert or anything horrible...........is a cruel thing to do. I'm really outraged for you, and for me, whether you want me feeling anything or not.

I'll stop now before I start ranting.

She is being hard certainly, but you cant just criticise her without knowing what pressure she was under when stopping seeing me twenty five years ago or so.

The blame sits largely elsewhere, (though I know my daughter is tougher than I will ever be, and I know too how she clung to contact with me for ten years after my marriage broke up, so those facts cant be changed, no matter how many folks try to tell me I should have done this or that differently, and all would have been well.).

BTW isn't this thread supposed to be about a total smacking ban being discussed by some in our UK government, whilst at the same another department is anticpating a huge increase in prison sentences for young offenders, (if not prisons, some other kind of detention centres as said above)?

 

[Pepper]

I digressed. I humbly beg your forgiveness.
One more thing---adults, like my nephews, are responsible for their own behavior, just like me & you. You are being too generous, IMO, but yeah, hurts less to blame something else.

 

[Packerjohn]

You are in a room with Hitler, Stalin and your local politician. You have a gun with only two bullets. What do you do?

Answer: Shoot the politician twice...

Great joke and unfortunately like a lot of great jokes, there is some truth in it. We used to have politicians who worked for the good of their community. Some still do but many are just in their for the fat pension. Every watch the debate in the House of Commons? They are worse than a bunch of grade 4 hoodlums. Everyone shouting and no one really listening. Totally disgusting!

By the way, the British used to send their convicts to Van Diemens Land (Australia). Perhaps they could start this again? However, I don't think the Australian would want the current crops of criminals; especially not politicians.

 

[Murrmurr]

Great joke and unfortunately like a lot of great jokes, there is some truth in it. We used to have politicians who worked for the good of their community. Some still do but many are just in their for the fat pension. Every watch the debate in the House of Commons? They are worse than a bunch of grade 4 hoodlums. Everyone shouting and no one really listening. Totally disgusting!

By the way, the British used to send their convicts to Van Diemens Land (Australia). Perhaps they could start this again? However, I don't think the Australian would want the current crops of criminals; especially not politicians.

They sent over 130,000 orphans there, too. To let someone else feed them give them a *better life*.

 

[David777]

The issue is not black and white as advocates against any spanking frame the issue, especially many psychologists and their politically correct mouthpiece organizations. There are significant numbers of parents that can do so without being emotional. The issue is there are numbers of parentally ignorant that do and would strike their children when mad from emotion anger. Thus psychologists are playing another lowest common denominator game of spouting such for the sake of those they cannot reach. Adults getting married ought be required to take a one day basic parenting class else their state tax rates go up say 10%.

Same thing is the case for them being against adult corporal punishment or public humiliation. It isn't that such might have an effective place but rather they are afraid if they allow such, there will be those that will be barbaric just as was the case in the past. At least in open modern technological era Western societies that need not be the case if effective transparent processes are applied. We could save a lot of trouble including incarceration or fining costs by otherwise instead giving criminals unpleasantness and even pain. Advocates for poor are now using incarceration costs to allow property crime criminals such little jail time that there is little incentive for criminals to reform. In fact many stories of thieves immediately stealing same day they are released.

Both human children, adults, all higher Earth creatures, are deterred by pain and punishment. In fact such is the primary way criminals enforce against their own. With young children such has a place but what might work like a swat with a 4 year old would not be appropriate for say a 15 year old chronic graffiti vandal. For them, community service tediously cleaning up such damage in their cities instead of being able to run loose having fun after a couple days watching tv and listening to "don't do that psychologists" with other miscreants in juvenile hall they just laugh at would be far more effective. Same thing with litterbugs. Poor advocate..."They will lose their job if they have to take time off for that." Well pinhead, that is what weekends are for.

 

[grahamg]

I digressed. I humbly beg your forgiveness.
One more thing---adults, like my nephews, are responsible for their own behavior, just like me & you. You are being too generous, IMO, but yeah, hurts less to blame something else.

No I'm not hurting, (not now, twenty five years on from being pushed out of my own daughter's life).
The system is at fault just as I've described too many times to be worth repeating, and the only defence for the system is that folks generally seem to agree with the very aims I believe, when followed too closely, lead to the situation where decent parents can count for nowt.
The "something else" I'm blaming deserves all the blame I'm giving them, (though I acknowledge the ex was the better parent, and the system allowing her to get away with what she did, maybe has to be as it is, or unscrupulous dads, and their lawyers might find it too easy to exploit!).

 

[grahamg]

Great joke and unfortunately like a lot of great jokes, there is some truth in it. We used to have politicians who worked for the good of their community. Some still do but many are just in their for the fat pension. Every watch the debate in the House of Commons? They are worse than a bunch of grade 4 hoodlums. Everyone shouting and no one really listening. Totally disgusting!

By the way, the British used to send their convicts to Van Diemens Land (Australia). Perhaps they could start this again? However, I don't think the Australian would want the current crops of criminals; especially not politicians.

I watch what goes on in our House of Commons maybe more than most, and overall have a very different opinion of goings on there, and I'll say it again, if you think their job is so easy, "give it a go yourself why don't you",(good question maybe, but be careful though when answering, as we're on dodgy territory here due to probably the most important forum rule we all must/should abide by at all times !)

 

[Trish]

David Amess - Conservative MP - stabbed at his constituency surgery in 2021 - father of 5 children. His family issued a statement which included these words:

So, we ask people to set aside their differences and show kindness and love to all.
This is the only way forward.
Set aside hatred and work towards togetherness.
Whatever one’s race, religious or political beliefs, be tolerant and try to understand.
​

Jo Cox - Labour MP - shot and stabbed outside her constituency in 2016 - mother of 2 children. Her family set up a foundation which
campaigns under the banner "More in Common" with the aim of bringing people together.

 

[Alligatorob]

considerations in our government for a total smacking ban to be imposed upon parents

I have mixed feelings about this one. I grew up in the Bible belt (US) south where corporal punishment of children was common and accepted. I got the belt or paddle many times, both from my parents and at school.

I remember a Jr high coach who used to make us stand in front of the class, bend over and get wacked. Then after a few he made us ask, in a loud voice "please sir may I have another". And we'd get a few more that way. It was painful, but I never got anything that left a mark, and importantly I don't think it was ever done out of spontaneous anger.

However I am not sure it did much good, otherwise I would not have gotten it so often. I remember in one class I got paddled 4 times in an hour. Don't remember what I was doing, but obviously it wasn't working well. No marks from that on, none that I could see anyway, but sitting down hurt for a few days.

In a perverse way getting paddled at school became a kind of badge of honor or something amongst my friends, getting paddled a lot was a sign of strength or defiance or something. I suspect I may have sought it out for that reason. The Jr High vice principal kept track of how many "licks" each of us got, a kind of mark of bad conduct I guess. We talked about the tally all the time, often bragging how high our numbers were.

I do not think it had any ill effect on me or my friends. I think this kind of thing has been happening for thousands of years. Its only recently that we have decided its not a good idea.

However, I know condoning it leads to problems in some cases, @win231 is a good example. And I now know of worse. So on balance I guess I think it is best to end it. Something that probably doesn't work, but can sometimes do harm isn't a good thing.

 

[Pepper]

So you approve of teachers hitting children @Alligatorob? A virtual stranger wielding power over your child? I had an opportunity, years ago, to move to Arizona but didn't take it as schools were allowed to use corporal punishment. Not on MY child. Yours, maybe?

 

[grahamg]

So you approve of teachers hitting children @Alligatorob? A virtual stranger wielding power over your child? I had an opportunity, years ago, to move to Arizona but didn't take it as schools were allowed to use corporal punishment. Not on MY child. Yours, maybe?

There was really not too much wrong with the way my very good school dealt with this issue, (and if you don't mind my saying you're over dramatising it!).
Our new headmaster, when I joined the school, and he stopped the school prefects having the right to use a slipper on you, (I guess I had the slipper four or five times at most, and I promise you, no I'll effects!).

 

[Pepper]

I don't mind you saying anything Graham. Bring it on!

 

[grahamg]

I don't mind you saying anything Graham. Bring it on!

That's all, (maybe you've had different experiences that give you the opinion you hold, and let s face it so very many agree, Scotland in the UK having instituted a ban!).

 

[win231]

I see a difference between smacking a child on the rear and beating a child. All children are different, even within the same family. Some never need more than a stern look. Others may need a different approach. None of the friends that I grew up with who got an occasional smack on the behind turned out abusive. My mother was a harping, hateful person who constantly abused my father and me mentally. I often wished she would just smack me and be done with it.

The idea is not the severity of beating/spanking/smacking - whatever you want to call it.
The idea is using pain as a teaching tool. That's where the ignorance lies.

 

[grahamg]

The idea is not the severity of beating/spanking/smacking - whatever you want to call it.
The idea is using pain as a teaching tool. That's where the ignorance lies.

Yes and no, because you're ignoring the suggestion made by our forum friend you were responding to, that "psychological pain",(that caused let's say by loving patents and stepparents all over the world to help try to control children they're responsible for), can be much much worse than a simple and quick tap/smack.

This means a small tap, one administered without causing bruising, as permitted in the majority of the UK to this day, when perhaps a child may be about to put themselves into danger, (when having "a paddy" of some kind!).!