Church, Religion and Control

oldaunt said:
Not the schools; the PARENTS are supposed to teach this from a very early age. Why do people bother having kids if they can't be bothered to raise them themselves?
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Its a bit worse than that in so many cases in the UK, as parents, particularly fathers get marginalised very often through no real fault of their own post breakup of the relationship with the other parent!
(I could go on believe me! :( )
 

Nosy Bee-54 said:
LOL! Due to the yoke of religion on lawmakers a whole lot of parents are going to have no choice but to have those children. Good luck on the raising part! :(
Religion in all stripes have caused a whole lot of hurt in the world.
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Even if what you say is wholly true, (and I'm sceptica,l as is maybe obvious, about the widespread condemnation of any religious thought), the issue is whether or no religions "on balance" are better than "no religion at all"!
 
Grampa Don said:
I think as we get older, religion becomes more of a touchy topic. We can see that light at the end of the tunnel and it's coming for us. So, people on both sides of the question become more entrenched, (Break). I don't care if you worship Jesus, Buddha, or Elvis Presley. If you're happy, I'm tickled to death. Now I'm going to go sacrifice a goat or something. Or, maybe I'll just have another beer.
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Leave the goat be, or maybe just milk it if you're so inclined :)!
 

My parents were active in the Baptist church and after becoming disillusioned (Pastor having an affair, cliques, gossip, etc.) they stopped going. Because I had grown up in the church I continued going, but I started going to Church of Christ because my best friend in high school went there.

My friend and I were the only two non-Baptists in a Fundamental Baptist high school. We had Chapel once a week there. "Fire and Brimstone" was preached, dancing was a sin, Rock Music was a sin, etc. After the preaching there was an excruciatingly long "invitation" with music designed to encourage every student to come forward and repent for their sins. My friend and I were shunned because we were the only two who didn't come forward. Talk about control.

And back to the Church of Christ, I was baptized a second time there as a teenager because I was told when I was baptized in the Baptist church at 9 years old I wasn't aware of the meaning of it. Again, talk about control.

I was done with all of it in my early 20's. I'm still happy for those who are religious and support them because it helps many get through life. Just not for me.
 
Over the years, I've attended several churches and eventually ended up leaving them because of control and abuse issues. I've learned that people are people...are people.
I believe that each one of us has been given free will, and that it is a sacred thing. I never want to push what I believe on anyone as I believe that this is how God is.
"You may disagree with me, but I'll defend your right to disagree with me."
 
"The 10 Commandments are the backbone of our society and it is vital that this is taught in schools. I do think a basic knowledge of the Bible should be taught but in a general sort of way, without doctrine.?

This is exactly my biggest complaint about most religions. To you they may the backbone - they are not to many others - and they certainly aren't "the backbone of our whole society". The religious are too often engaged in trying to shove or force their beliefs off on others (Like calling for the bible and the Ten Commandments to be taught in Public School) and insisting others live by their beliefs instead of allowing them to live their own beliefs. Too many religions have a horrible history of abuse .of their fellow humans in the name of their religion - and Christianity is no exception
 
Raddragn said:
"The 10 Commandments are the backbone of our society and it is vital that this is taught in schools. I do think a basic knowledge of the Bible should be taught but in a general sort of way, without doctrine.?

This is exactly my biggest complaint about most religions. To you they may the backbone - they are not to many others - and they certainly aren't "the backbone of our whole society". The religious are too often engaged in trying to shove or force their beliefs off on others (Like calling for the bible and the Ten Commandments to be taught in Public School) and insisting others live by their beliefs instead of allowing them to live their own beliefs. Too many religions have a horrible history of abuse .of their fellow humans in the name of their religion - and Christianity is no exception
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Its so easy though for folks to come out with this seemingly "high and mighty" attitude towards churches or religion, (irony intended), without considering whether on balance churches and religion do more good than harm, certainly when compared to the alternative of no religions at all, (when all that is ultimately left is pursuit of self interest for all human beings in my view, and the promotion of such ideology).
 
I don't have any statistics on the issue, but I strongly suspect that a comparison would show that overall. religions have done far more damage to human beings (burning at the stake, torture, starvation, etc.) than good - especially to women - subjugating and enslaving them. I could be wrong, but given all the history I've read, I don't think so
 
Whenever I think about this church experience, I laugh just as hard as when it happened - 45 years ago.
Back then, I worked in my family's business, which was an Attorney Service. I did the court filing & process serving.
A guy I had to locate was ducking service; the case involved a civil suit stemming from a DUI crash. The Marshall made 4 attempts & couldn't serve him. I told our client "The marshall only knocks on the door & if no one answers, he leaves. I'll serve him or you pay nothing."

I got to his house at 8:00am on Sunday - when most people are home. No answer. I started knocking on neighbors' doors. The 4th neighbor told me he was in church a block away.
I walked into the church & the Reverend was in the middle of his sermon. The church was packed.
I told the Reverend: "Hi, my brother......I owe Steve (the guy's name) $1,000.00 & I'm finally able to pay him, but I can't find him. Is he a member of this church?"
The Reverend said, "Why yes....bless you, my son; he's right here in the front row."
I walked up to him & handed him the summons. He immediately jumped up & started yelling at the Reverend & told him who I was.
The Reverend got real angry at me & said, "How dare you deceive me this way in a house of God."
I could tell he wasn't finished yelling at me.
I pointed up to the ceiling & said, "Careful, Reverend....remember who's watching you right now."
I could hear snickers & some chuckling from the congregation.

When I got to my car, I was laughing so hard, I couldn't drive for 10 minutes.
 
grahamg said:
Its so easy though for folks to come out with this seemingly "high and mighty" attitude towards churches or religion, (irony intended), without considering whether on balance churches and religion do more good than harm, certainly when compared to the alternative of no religions at all, (when all that is ultimately left is pursuit of self interest for all human beings in my view, and the promotion of such ideology).
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If you need church or religion to be a decent caring human being, then there is probably something wrong with YOU.
 
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My Grandmother, when she came to raise us, I was 7 at that time, started taking us to church in the hopes? of what? indoctrinating us? Making herself feel good?
I do not know the reason but she gave up after not very long as we children, even at that age, rebelled.
Personally I look on religion as a predatory organisation.
Especially with children in as much as, indoctrinate them early and have them for life.
Plus they offer the world to those down on their luck, of suffering depression el al.
Offer a little solace to the vulnerable without very little real help.
Religions are tax exempt because they are suppose to be offering meaningful assistance in the community.
Yet what I see is an organisation raking in money, with vast land/property holdings.
Operate a food kitchen or two, Tax exempt.
I shake my head at the scurrilous Tax Office aficionados whom are not strong enough to stand against this rort.
 
Alligatorob said:
Yes, many of the Commandments are basic to a civilized society, and I believe those should be instilled in children, no matter the religion. Particularly:

  • Honor your father and mother.
  • Thou shalt not kill.
  • Thou shalt not steal.
  • Thou shalt not steal.
  • Thou shall not bear false witness.
  • You shall not covet.
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Oh at last...someone who agrees with me!
 
Raddragn said:
I don't have any statistics on the issue, but I strongly suspect that a comparison would show that overall. religions have done far more damage to human beings (burning at the stake, torture, starvation, etc.) than good - especially to women - subjugating and enslaving them. I could be wrong, but given all the history I've read, I don't think so
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If you don't mind my saying anyone trying to judge a movement or religion in the way you've done is bound to be stymied by this obvious weakness, no one can say for sure whether the last two thousand years without any religion would have been better or worse "overall"!
The question is both futile and unhelpful too, because the impact of religion on everyone's lives during such a huge period of time, covering many many generations, goes far beyond what anyone thinks of it now in terms of its significance.
 
oldaunt said:
If you need church or religion to be a decent caring human being, then there is probably something wrong with YOU.
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Hey, there's plenty wrong with me, (everyone tells me so!), hence no argument there, and no argument about how many exceptionally good people never willingly see the inside of a church, my own daughter being an atheist like her mother, and yet will do ten times more good in this world than ever I'll manage!
However, when I had the ten years of contact with her that I managed to sustain following the break up of my marriage, I tried and I believe succeeded in inculcating in her the view that "putting herself on the same level as others" would be the right thing to try to do, (so you can connect emotionally etc.).
I think there is an element of religion or Christianity in that approach to life, and it helps counteract "self centeredness"! :)
 
I've said in many posts that my parents could never explain why they were religious or why I had to go to church or bible class - you just had to.
Alongside that was the belief that Catholicism was the work of Satan and the pope was the Antichrist. Nervelessness, we has good friends of various religions and we generally all got along as long as we didn't marry outside of our own church. Marrying a catholic was one of the greatest sins that one could commit. I know of a neighbour's daughter who married a Catholic man and was never allowed back into her parents' house again. I don't condone that, but I understand it.

The world would be a much better place is we rid it of beliefs in these mythical gods etc., and pulled together as people to solve our problems.
 
Alligatorob said:
Yes, many of the Commandments are basic to a civilized society, and I believe those should be instilled in children, no matter the religion. Particularly:

  • Honor your father and mother.
  • Thou shalt not kill.
  • Thou shalt not steal.
  • Thou shalt not steal.
  • Thou shall not bear false witness.
  • You shall not covet.
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grahamg said:
Its so easy though for folks to come out with this seemingly "high and mighty" attitude towards churches or religion, (irony intended), without considering whether on balance churches and religion do more good than harm, certainly when compared to the alternative of no religions at all, (when all that is ultimately left is pursuit of self interest for all human beings in my view, and the promotion of such ideology).
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I think the "high and mighty" are mostly the faithful. And half the 10 commandments are hardly rocket science, but matters of simple ethics. The ones about serving god, are irrelevant, unless there is a god, which no one can prove.
 
My parents weren't the type to talk religion at home but we did go to Sunday School and church fairly regularly when we were children. It was mainstream Presbyterian with nothing pushy or controlling about it.

Overall I think religion has been a good thing for a society. Whether it's Buddhism, Christianity or any other religion I know of, they all seem to teach people not to kill or steal, to be respectful of others and to value kindness. I know religion gets blamed by history for causing all the wars, but I really think most of them we're the result of powerful rulers wanting more land and money. They just used religious rhetoric to motivate their armies who were forced to fight in any case.

Stalin did a good job of stamping out religion in the Russian countries, and during WWII the Russian armies and prison camps were the most feared in the world for their torture and cruelty and they're still running roughshod over other countries today. In China atheism goes hand in hand with communism and people are controlled right down to the number of children they can have. I'm glad I live in a free country where we have separation of church and state, but I would never want to live in a country where atheism ruled and religion was not allowed.
 
win231 said:
Whenever I think about this church experience, I laugh just as hard as when it happened - 45 years ago.
Back then, I worked in my family's business, which was an Attorney Service. I did the court filing & process serving.
A guy I had to locate was ducking service; the case involved a civil suit stemming from a DUI crash. The Marshall made 4 attempts & couldn't serve him. I told our client "The marshall only knocks on the door & if no one answers, he leaves. I'll serve him or you pay nothing."

I got to his house at 8:00am on Sunday - when most people are home. No answer. I started knocking on neighbors' doors. The 4th neighbor told me he was in church a block away.
I walked into the church & the Reverend was in the middle of his sermon. The church was packed.
I told the Reverend: "Hi, my brother......I owe Steve (the guy's name) $1,000.00 & I'm finally able to pay him, but I can't find him. Is he a member of this church?"
The Reverend said, "Why yes....bless you, my son; he's right here in the front row."
I walked up to him & handed him the summons. He immediately jumped up & started yelling at the Reverend & told him who I was.
The Reverend got real angry at me & said, "How dare you deceive me this way in a house of God."
I could tell he wasn't finished yelling at me.
I pointed up to the ceiling & said, "Careful, Reverend....remember who's watching you right now."
I could hear snickers & some chuckling from the congregation.

When I got to my car, I was laughing so hard, I couldn't drive for 10 minutes.
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I love it, that is quiet a story! I wish I had the balls to something like that.
 
My parents were “C&E’s,” nominals present in church mostly at Xmas and Easter. As a younger adult, I was active in church life, but in so doing soon found myself dumped on for ushering, Sunday school duties, musicianship, and a variety of church administrative posts. Burnout followed, and finally when I moved I didn’t seek out a new church, not wanting to repeat the cycle. The institution of a church can actually oppress its religious objectives. Perhaps someday I shall return to it, if convinced I have safeguards in place against exploitation.

Sadder still are those churches that have gravitated towards a “judging and condemning“ orientation, often in association with a particular political perspective…
 
dseag2 said:
We had Chapel once a week there. "Fire and Brimstone" was preached, dancing was a sin, Rock Music was a sin, etc.
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I attended a church school for a couple years.... anyway, the topic of taking Communion came up, we were told that if we took communion without having completed the Communion class, that the wine and bread would turn into poison in our stomachs.:eek:
A year or two later when I was spending the summer in NC at my grand-parents house, my grandfather being a Lutheran minister gave me a 1 on 1 Confirmation class, and so I was then duly certified to receive the Sacraments. But I recall trembling when my grandfather first served me Communion, thinking about what they told us in the parochial school.
 
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