You are lucky I am your father, (drawing attention to fatherlessness)

[grahamg]

The title of this thread is intended to draw attention obviously, and it is likely a number of forum members will wish to disagree with the theme behind the title, that there is something wrong in the world when fatherlessness is so prevalent, ("fatherlessness" here meaning natural fathers not having contact with their children during most/all their years growing up).

Most people on this forum would still probably criticise those fathers helping to bring children into this world without any desire to help bring up the child, or thought for whether they should be involved at all.

However, in todays world with sperm banks and here in the UK there is no longer any need or requirement for those professionals considering assisting a would be mother, to take into account whether there is a husband or partner to help bring up the child produced, it hard to see how our government institutions can criticise men who abandon their own children, (or at least with the same degree of force they might once have been able to do).

To close my title suggests the children of those men who did all in their power to love them and stay in their lives, even when the family law system takes "Mother tending to be the gatekeeper of the children's relationship with the other parent" as a given, (rather than something to be opposed).

Here then are some statistics:
How many children lose contact with their fathers following divorce(?):
https://www.familylaw.co.uk/news_an...ldren lose contact with father during divorce

An article here suggests one in two children lose meaningful contact:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/nov/20/non-resident-dads-relationship-children

Back to saying 30% of children lose contact with their fathers here, (assessing the situation ten years ago):
https://www.family-lawfirm.co.uk/blog/third-of-children-lose-contact-with-father-in-divorce/

Quote:
"Third of children lose contact with father in divorce

I have long been aware of the devastating impact divorce and separation can have on children, yet I was still particularly horrified to read recently the statistics from a poll undertaken on behalf of another firm of solicitors.
Most alarming to me was the revelation that “one in three children whose parents separated or divorced over the last 20 years disclosed that they had lost contact permanently with their father”. Equally concerning was the fact that “almost a tenth of children from broken families said the acrimonious process had left them feeling suicidal while others later sought solace in drink, drugs or crime”.
The picture this paints of our society and the way the courts system deals with family break-up is not a pretty one, particularly with the acceptance from some parents polled who said they had deliberately used the children as “bargaining tools against each other”. This can only put further strain on relations when it may be perceived that children are taking sides."

 

[Remy]

No doubt children become pawns when the adults decide they no longer like each other. And the child had no say so in their pairing or that they were created.

My bio-dad was a deadbeat. Let me rephrase that, a WWII hero, but to me still a deadbeat. My mother put a stop to us kids seeing him. I know he never tried to after that. Not in any meaningful way. He did do some stalking and I guess went to my 8th grade graduation. Sent a letter to the house. It was really weird and berated me for my weight. Of coarse my mother showed me the letter so I would know what a horrible person he was. And all she had been through because of him. You know the man she chose to marry and procreate with. Didn't protect me from the contents of that letter. Why would she, I didn't matter. It was all about her. The kids end up bearing the burden of those marriages that don't work out much of the time.

 

[grahamg]

No doubt children become pawns when the adults decide they no longer like each other. And the child had no say so in their pairing or that they were created.

My bio-dad was a deadbeat. Let me rephrase that, a WWII hero, but to me still a deadbeat. My mother put a stop to us kids seeing him. I know he never tried to after that. Not in any meaningful way. He did do some stalking and I guess went to my 8th grade graduation. Sent a letter to the house. It was really weird and berated me for my weight. Of coarse my mother showed me the letter so I would know what a horrible person he was. And all she had been through because of him. You know the man she chose to marry and procreate with. Didn't protect me from the contents of that letter. Why would she, I didn't matter. It was all about her. The kids end up bearing the burden of those marriages that don't work out much of the time.

I'm often criticised on this forum, especially when raising the subject of fathers/parents rights, or lack of them in the UK, (occasionally my own parenting gets a good kicking from those choosing to indulge themselves, when obviously they can have no real idea what went on in my own family following marital breakdown).
However, disparaging your own father as you do, (and of course my own daughter has done, even though I believe I could not have loved a child more), raises some awkward questions in my mind, the first being is it possible to try to look at matters the way your father must have had to do?
No one can be absolutely sure, given whatever it was made him behave as he did, that in the same circumstances you wouldn't have behaved the same way. You might resist that thought, and please accept I've come across enough fathers seemingly deserving the description "deadbeat dads", (and even some fathers who were hardworking enough to earn money to pay towards their children who could not show love and affection towards them for whatever reason, whose children you have to feel for because of this).
My daughter can condemn me all she wishes, ("you ruined the first twelve years of my life" for example), but up to the age of twelve her own wishes would have to have been ignored had I not complied when she said, "I hate you, you are horrible,....., keep coming daddy", (seemingly unware of the contractions contained in her statements).

Kids can suffer I agree, and this thread suggests widespread "fatherlessness" in the UK is a big enough issue already, (meaning "natural fathers not seeing their children, as stated in an earlier post), and its obviously not possible to fix everything that can go wrong when marriages fail etc., but a modest enough aim in the UK is surely to give those "decent dads/parents" who do wish to play their part emotionally as well as financially in their children's lives at least the meagrest of statutory rights, (so that the lack of such rights doesn't cause dads who might provide their children with love and care to give up before they get started).

 

[Tish]

There is a huge difference between deadbeat dads and those that cannot be 100% active in their child's life for whatever reason there may be, divorce is one, separation whatever.

And then you have a group of fathers that are fantastic with their children but violent with that child's mother/Father/partner/ what have you. ( not that I approve of violence in any shape or form)

There is no doubt in my mind that this is not a clear-cut discussion or situation and everyone has a unique story to tell.
As I have heard your story many times, I will graciously bow out.

Have at it people.

 

[grahamg]

There is a huge difference between deadbeat dads and those that cannot be 100% active in their child's life for whatever reason there may be, divorce is one, separation whatever.
And then you have a group of fathers that are fantastic with their children but violent with that child's mother/Father/partner/ what have you. ( not that I approve of violence in any shape or form). There is no doubt in my mind that this is not a clear-cut discussion or situation and everyone has a unique story to tell.
As I have heard your story many times, I will graciously bow out. Have at it people.

Thanks for your contribution.
I would just point out to anyone else on the forum wishing to respond that the fact "everyone has a unique story to tell", should not be sufficient reason to deny all decent dads/parents any statutory rights in my view, (not that I'm suggesting you meant to infer this).
Violence would of course be just cause to lead to the qualified right of contact with your child, (or "rebuttable presumption in favour of contact"), being withheld.

 

[Remy]

@grahamg As I've stated before, I know you are hurting over things in you life and your relationship with your daughter. At my age, I may still complain, but I've also come to the conclusion I bombed in the parent department. Mentally ill mother, dead beat bio-dad and enabler stepfather. Stories are complicated and no one can ever know everything or even convey everything.

One never knows why someone may cut off contact with parents and other family members. But if I could do it all over again, no contact or at least very low contact by moving far away is what I would have done.

 

[bowmore]

My ex did a number on both of my sons. Without going into the details, which are from many years ago, it made the most inpact on my younger son.
Fortunately, some years later, I reconnected with both of them and now have good relationships. It took some serious discussions with my younger son to finally clear the air.

 

[Chet]

I was fortunate. My father was the bread winner and my mother was a stay at home mom. It was typical of the community I grew up in. Yes there was friction at times, but overall it was a stable environment in which to grow up. Even with a good upbringing though, I did my best at times to screw things up but eventually took the right path.

 

[Pepper]

How do we really know you were 'a decent dad?' That's your side of the story; a unique story you tell. I don't really disbelieve you, but you were found wanting to some degree. Your daughter is an adult and she has her unique story. In her story she wants nothing to do with you. Bet her reason is unique to her and for her.

 

[Remy]

My ex did a number on both of my sons. Without going into the details, which are from many years ago, it made the most inpact on my younger son.
Fortunately, some years later, I reconnected with both of them and now have good relationships. It took some serious discussions with my younger son to finally clear the air.

I'm very glad. I do believe my bio-dad wasn't much. I can deal with that. More drastically though is the isolation my mother did to my stepfather and us kids from his family, who I think were decent people. I remember them being nothing but nice to me when I was a kid. Not one bad memory of any of them for the contact I had.

Unfortunately turning children away from family is common. On the forum I go to for children with a borderline parent, I have read countless posts of people saying they met family that their (usually it's the mother) mother hated. They reconnected with these family members as adults and found they were nothing like their mother said they were. It's really horrible to do that to a child. And sadly it's not a rarity.

 

[grahamg]

How do we really know you were 'a decent dad?' That's your side of the story; a unique story you tell. I don't really disbelieve you, but you were found wanting to some degree. Your daughter is an adult and she has her unique story. In her story she wants nothing to do with you. Bet her reason is unique to her and for her.

Let me very briefly try to turn your argument back on you.

Whether or not I was a decent dad, or any other dad could have themselves rightly described by that term, (I've heard Family court judges use the term "Okay dads"), do you wish to see all dads/parents, denied any statutory parental rights, (as is the case in the UK), just because I may not be quite as decent a dad as you and people who think like you, may wish us to be?

 

[grahamg]

@grahamg As I've stated before, I know you are hurting over things in you life and your relationship with your daughter. At my age, I may still complain, but I've also come to the conclusion I bombed in the parent department. Mentally ill mother, dead beat bio-dad and enabler stepfather. Stories are complicated and no one can ever know everything or even convey everything.

One never knows why someone may cut off contact with parents and other family members. But if I could do it all over again, no contact or at least very low contact by moving far away is what I would have done.

Forget for a moment whether it is hurt that causes me to continue to post on this subject, think about the lack of parental statutory rights in the UK I keep mentioning would you(?).

Whatever happened in my case there may other reason I keep on posting about this topic. There might be, "love", (being shunned by your child who you loved), and then there is my thinking its a big deal so many decent dads, (even if forum members think I may not have been one), there are many many decent dads, mums, grandparents excluded from their children's/grandchildren's lives for no good reason.

When our family law system was investigated by our UK government, or a body set up to do so on its behalf, "irrational behaviour" on the part of the custodial or residential parent was put forward as sufficient justification for excluding the other parent, by professionals working in family law and lecturing on the subject. Doesn't that fact alone convince you at all that something may be wrong here?

 

[Knight]

Don't want to sound insensitive but this as a topic has been posted in various forms.
You have posted multiple times about how the court system is unfair.
Courts try to work to assure the best interests of the child. If the courts didn't decide in your favor why didn't they?

Items like did you seek sole custody? Did you?
If Denied why?
Did you pay child support & pay over the court amount required of you?
Did you try to see your daughter on special occasions? If not why not?

Your daughter is a mature adult able to decide for herself about who she wants in her life. At this time in her life have you been able to establish communication to find out why she doesn't want you in it?

 

[Been There]

My dad died when I was 9 along with my my mom. As a 9 year old boy, I can only tell anyone that asks that my dad really loved being a family man. My mom and dad tried twice before to have a child and on try #3, I was born. After I was born, my parents had to adopt because my mom had to have a hysterectomy performed after my birth for her health reasons. Before the adoption went through, my parents were killed, so I was the only child to my parents. Sometimes life just isn’t fair.

 

[mrstime]

My mother left when l was 5, she needed the divorce because she was pregnant with another mans child. So my father used custody of me to let her have a quickie divorce. Most of the time my grandparents raised me, however he decided to make me live with him as I was a teenager.I won't go into everything, but if it hadn't been for our next door neighbor I would have starved to death. They had a bunch of kids and my father told me to never eat with them because they were poor. I suspect though that his objection was that they were Mexican-American.Then I got back to my grandparents when I was 15, and one day my father was haranguing me and after quite a while my grandfather said "thats enough, leave the girl alone" my father moved that night to northern California. But of course I was afraid of him, and the love I had for my daddy died . Turns out that the baby my mother had was not raised by her, that child was raised by her grandparents . Needless to say I loved my grandparents and miss them, especially grandma........every day I think of her and miss her.

 

[grahamg]

Don't want to sound insensitive but this as a topic has been posted in various forms.
You have posted multiple times about how the court system is unfair.
Courts try to work to assure the best interests of the child. If the courts didn't decide in your favor why didn't they?
Items like did you seek sole custody? Did you?
If Denied why?
Did you pay child support & pay over the court amount required of you?
Did you try to see your daughter on special occasions? If not why not?
Your daughter is a mature adult able to decide for herself about who she wants in her life. At this time in her life have you been able to establish communication to find out why she doesn't want you in it?

You wont mind my dodging your direct questions concerning my daughter, (the how, what, why questions), because as you rightly say I have posted on this topic more often than anyone cares to remember.

Why carry on posting about it then?

This is a question I tried to answer above, but I've a few more things to say, (some involving fairly intimate details only I and my ex. will know occurred for example, so you'll have to decide for yourself whether they're true or not).

I had not known my future wife long when she told me, "I want to have your child", (hearing any girl saying that would have been enough to turn many a young man's head dont you think hey!).

Whilst married I was concerned lest my wife should leave it too long before having a child, (she was twenty eight when our daughter was born). The point I'm making is that it was a deeply held belief or instinct within me letting me know I wished to have a child, and not just "have a child" but have a child with someone I believed loved me enough to wish to have my child. Then beyond that I wished for my child to grow up well and be a good person, who would help others too as much as they could.

I wanted to be close with my child, (and believe I achieved that, though you may well question that statement, if you're relying on the same evidence that has already caused other forum members to assume I wasn't a good/decent/loving dad).

There has to be "no excuses" so far as I'm concerned when it comes to what you do as a parent, in the sense that you do what you believe is right. You make your own mind up on these things and allow no one to dominate your views, and were you to allow others to interfere then the desired "closeness" you may have wished to have with your child will be thrown away automatically.

In my belief providing you followed a few basic rules, the state should assume you're worthy as a dad of the meagrest of statutory rights. However, if you, and all the others posting on this thread, or commenting on any of the other threads I've posted on this subject, are content that there are no statutory rights then there is nothing to be done.

I'm assuming folks on this forum are a fair cross section of the general population, or even more likely to believe in marriage, and the role parents should be allowed to play in their children's lives without state interference, (except where there is a possibility harm of some kind).

 

[Knight]

You wont mind my dodging your direct questions concerning my daughter, (the how, what, why questions), because as you rightly say I have posted on this topic more often than anyone cares to remember.

No I don't mind although answereing might have explained much of what you post about

This is a question I tried to answer above, but I've a few more things to say, (some involving fairly intimate details only I and my ex. will know occurred for example, so you'll have to decide for yourself whether they're true or not).

No reason to not believe you.

I had not known my future wife long when she told me, "I want to have your child", (hearing any girl saying that would have been enough to turn many a young man's head dont you think hey!).

At 17 I had that experience.

Scared me enough to not see her again. But at age 20 I had enough experience to know what mattered to me. In Dec. 1961 I met the love of my life. March 1962 we married. Still married.

I wanted to be close with my child, (and believe I achieved that, though you may well question that statement, if you're relying on the same evidence that has already caused other forum members to assume I wasn't a good/decent/loving dad).

Prior posts like this last one don't fill in the blanks regarding why you still don't have a good relationship with your daughter

I'm assuming folks on this forum are a fair cross section of the general population, or even more likely to believe in marriage, and the role parents should be allowed to play in their children's lives without state interference, (except where there is a possibility harm of some kind).

I too believe folks on this forum are fair. You do make it difficult to understand your thoughts especially when you post that you & your daughter aren't close.

 

[grahamg]

Sorry its all gotten so fragmented.

I'll stick to my policy of not responding further concerning my own child, at least until I have some kind of response to my question as to whether forum members are content "decent dads/parents" have no statutory legal rights in the UK?

(However, thanks for your interest in the thread and posts).

 

[Sassycakes]

I had the BEST Dad in the world and I miss him every day. He passed away too soon.

 

[grahamg]

I had the BEST Dad in the world and I miss him every day. He passed away too soon.

Couldn't be more pleased, and yet even if he were not the best dad he undoubtedly was, you'd allow a meagre level of statutory rights so the scepticism witnessed everywhere about a parent/dad didn't of itself destroy relationships(?).
Having your own child you stick with them through all kinds of difficulties dont you, (a good dad, or even an okay dad would attempt to do this), and there has to be a sense of "quid pro quo" about this doesn't there, not one side taking everything and giving nothing in return.

 

[Lavinia]

How do we really know you were 'a decent dad?' That's your side of the story; a unique story you tell. I don't really disbelieve you, but you were found wanting to some degree. Your daughter is an adult and she has her unique story. In her story she wants nothing to do with you. Bet her reason is unique to her and for her.

This is one of the problems....we only get one side of the story. There must have been very good reasons why the decision was made to give the mother custody.

 

[grahamg]

This is one of the problems....we only get one side of the story. There must have been very good reasons why the decision was made to give the mother custody.

You've highlighted "one problem", but if you dont mind my saying, whilst doing so you've highlighted another problem, one I wish to force you and other forum members to confront, ("if at all possible").

The very words, "we only get one side of the story" carry with them an assumption, and that assumption is that someone, a professional of some kind employed in the family law system most often, but in the context of this discussion, every forum member choosing to try to make a critical assessment, can come to conclusions that may be wiser and more pertinent to the interests of children, than the father/parent of any particular child.

No one seems to react when I keep stating "there are no statutory parental rights in the UK", (only once did someone react on one of these many threads concerning that fact, to tell me the situation differs in the USA, where some states do allow some statutory rights for dads/parents, and even mention the word "love" in relation to the child and who might love them!).

Hence my desire to learn what reaction forum members have who choose to ignore the lack of statutory parental rights here, because that is the big story here isn't it, not the ins and outs of whatever happened during my twelve years of contact with my child.

I'll throw in an aside for you though, or anecdote, just to give you an insight into my thinking.

Yesterday evening I spent time in a bar at Burnham on Sea, Somerset, trying to watch a big soccer game. it was a fairly popular bar, with many young people there not so interested in the game being shown, and choosing instead to "shoot some pool". A well built young woman, with two more petite friends started a game of pool with some of the local lads. We learnt her stepfather was present at the bar, (watching the soccer game as it happens), and her two friends took little interest in the soccer being shown or the pool game her friend was involved in.

The point of mentioning this encounter concerns who was the loudest person present, it was this young well built woman, (here it gets called "ladette" behaviour in a satirical magazine called Private Eye). The young men were not shy looking types but no one tried to compete with the laddish behaviour of this woman, and I'd suggest she isn't an uncommon example here, dominating conversations, drawing attention to herself and so on, and my feeling is most if not all of those lads would be looking at her and seeing "red flags" so far as befriending her goes.

Telling you all this may be completely irrelevant on this thread, with the exception of the fact we learned she had a stepdad, (who certainly took no steps to try to quieten down the loud noise she was making), but one wonders what her real/biological dad would have thought, and if he wanted his girl to act up like this(?).

We'll not get to know will we, because as you've highlighted "we dont get to hear or know both sides of the story, (maybe there is three sides to this story, my description of what went on, the young woman I'm referring to might have a different recollection, or else be "loud and proud", and then whatever the father might say,......,, tough to talk about really any further if you want all that info before coming to any conclusions where the truth lies! ).

 

[Knight]

A lot of examples & distress about your adult daughter not wanting to acknowledge you but nothing about your right to file for rights under the system in place in the UK

https://www.gov.uk/looking-after-children-divorce/apply-for-court-order

 

[helenbacque]

A lot of things can be legislated but affection is not one of them.

 

[Sassycakes]

Couldn't be more pleased, and yet even if he were not the best dad he undoubtedly was, you'd allow a meagre level of statutory rights so the scepticism witnessed everywhere about a parent/dad didn't of itself destroy relationships(?).
Having your own child you stick with them through all kinds of difficulties dont you, (a good dad, or even an okay dad would attempt to do this), and there has to be a sense of "quid pro quo" about this doesn't there, not one side taking everything and giving nothing in return.

My Mother didn't like me but my Dad adored me and my brother and sister. After my Mom passed away about ten years ago my older brother sent me a letter saying that he admired all I did for, my Mom, in spite of how she treated me. He said my Mom treated him like he was a king, yet he never did anything for her as I did.