A small step that might just change the world, (expectations of our children)

[grahamg]

I will quickly admit this is yet another attempt to start a thread relating to parents/children etc., but if you can suffer to give my latest thought the slightest bit of your attention it occurs to me what any of us might expect of our children just could be so fundamental it might change the world, (or western world at least, as I think the eastern countries of the world still hold the view I'm going to put forward).

If our own children, and children in general, be it in school or whatever it might be, (boy scout troops, or girl guides), are told there is a need for them to understand and express appreciation for those who love them, notwithstanding they'll probably appreciate this for themselves anyway, this could not only help breed more harmony in society, it could I believe, result in better outcomes for our children.

There we are, just a thought, (not every day you come up with a thought to maybe change the world ! ).

 

[Trish]

I am not sure why you think children in the western world are not (or are less likely than those in the eastern countries) taught to understand and express appreciation for those who love them?

 

[Been There]

Don't parents already teach their children to show appreciation to others when they are treated appropriately or given a gift or have been shown some type of courtesy? I have often heard moms and dads tell their child to say thanks after they are given a piece of candy or maybe treated them to an ice cream cone. Moms and dads alike will say, "What do you say?"

 

[HoneyNut]

told their is a need for them to understand and express appreciation for those who love them

That sounds creepy and emotionally unhealthy to me. No way would I teach my kid that someone who loves her deserves something in return for the love.
If I know (or think I know) that she does feel grateful and appreciative, I would encourage her to let her grandparents etc know, to send thank you notes, etc. And I am of course in favor of good manners.
But, even for gifts she does not owe anyone feelings of appreciation. If she is uncomfortable getting a gift or affection, then she owes no one anything in return.
ETA - when my daughter's bio-father gave her a cell phone (secretly), what he got in return was a no-contact order.

 

[Trish]

That sounds creepy and emotionally unhealthy to me. No way would I teach my kid that someone who loves her deserves something in return for the love.
If I know (or think I know) that she does feel grateful and appreciative, I would encourage her to let her grandparents etc know, to send thank you notes, etc. And I am of course in favor of good manners.
But, even for gifts she does not owe anyone feelings of appreciation. If she is uncomfortable getting a gift or affection, then she owes no one anything in return.

That puts a different spin on it but, I was assuming "appreciation" meant saying thank you for a gift and general good manners rather than affection which reminds me of the days when children would be pressured to give a relative a kiss or a hug which, I always thought was wrong and embarrassing for the child and often the adult too. I would hate for my neice or nephew to be told to kiss me if I gave them a gift.

 

[NorthernLight]

I'm not sure what to think. A few months ago, new neighbors moved in across the street. If there is a noisy way to talk, drive, work, or do anything else, they will do it the noisy way. They have 2 outdoor dogs that bark or whine/whimper day and night.

Once I heard their adolescent daughter yell "I love you" to her parents as she left the house. I asked myself, "How can anyone love these people?"

So I don't know.

 

[grahamg]

I am not sure why you think children in the western world are not (or are less likely than those in the eastern countries) taught to understand and express appreciation for those who love them?

If you think children in the western world are taught in the same way as children in far eastern countries as regards their parents, and respect, (or appreciation), then I may of course be completely wrong.
If the whole world already does this equally, and I'd assumed there to be a difference due solely to comments I've read, (especially the contributions of a professor called Akira Morita from Japan at a world congress on children and young people twenty years ago), then this leads me on to suggest publicly pronouncing in the manner I'm suggesting could be done more often without many objections(?).

 

[Lavinia]

'Honour thy father and thy mother', is one of the 10 Commandments....or are you perhaps meaning psychological understanding? I think that is expecting too much.
We choose to have children, it's our choice not theirs. Why should we expect some sort of gratitude from them?

 

[Tish]

I taught mine that respect is earned and there is no such thing as a free lunch.
When my eldest two got married, I made sure they understood that it was not a 50/50 situation, but a 100/100 situation.
So far it has served them well.

 

[grahamg]

'Honour thy father and thy mother', is one of the 10 Commandments....or are you perhaps meaning psychological understanding? I think that is expecting too much.
We choose to have children, it's our choice not theirs. Why should we expect some sort of gratitude from them?

If it helped promote harmony would you consider it worth trying, (benefitting both children and their loving parents as stated in OP)?

 

[Lavinia]

Can you discuss this rationally, without taking offence at anything I say?

When you and your wife decided to have a child, what were your reasons and what did you expect from the child? Obviously, I have read previous posts of yours, although I haven't always commented on them. I get the impression that you had expectations of the child itself. You set high standards and wanted the child to live up to those expectations. (This is the impression I have got). Don't you think that was rather unreasonable?
When my husband and I decided to have children, it was because it was the natural thing to do. We were both from quite large families, it was what we were used to and we wanted to create a family of our own. I didn't really have expectations of the children themselves, it was all about satisfying my own need to have a family. I know that sounds selfish but surely we all have children to satisfy our own need, not to benefit the child?

 

[grahamg]

Can you discuss this rationally, without taking offence at anything I say?
When you and your wife decided to have a child, what were your reasons and what did you expect from the child? Obviously, I have read previous posts of yours, although I haven't always commented on them. I get the impression that you had expectations of the child itself. You set high standards and wanted the child to live up to those expectations. (This is the impression I have got). Don't you think that was rather unreasonable?
When my husband and I decided to have children, it was because it was the natural thing to do. We were both from quite large families, it was what we were used to and we wanted to create a family of our own. I didn't really have expectations of the children themselves, it was all about satisfying my own need to have a family. I know that sounds selfish but surely we all have children to satisfy our own need, not to benefit the child?

I will have a go, but do you mind if I do so in a private message rather than deflect my "world changing" thread (that people have so kindly decided to address at face value)?

 

[Pepper]

It is creepy. It reminds me of i.e. an "uncle" or "father" or "mother" using such an approach to say they deserved s.e.x.u.a.l favors from a child who would be bound not to tell, due to showing "appreciation" and "respect."

Definitely not saying Graham would ever have done that, but in general, that's the way it sounds.

 

[Trish]

If you think children in the western world are taught in the same way as children in far eastern countries as regards their parents, and respect, (or appreciation), then I may of course be completely wrong.
If the whole world already does this equally, and I'd assumed there to be a difference due solely to comments I've read, (especially the contributions of a professor called Akira Morita from Japan at a world congress on children and young people twenty years ago), then this leads me on to suggest publicly pronouncing in the manner I'm suggesting could be done more often without many objections(?).

I am sure there are differences but, equally, I think the basics still apply. I wouldn't suggest that you are completely wrong but, I don't think you are completely right either

See, basing your opinions solely on what you have read (or even what someone else has told you) is not nearly as interesting as hearing your own observations and experiences.

I will quickly admit this is yet another attempt to start a thread relating to parents/children etc., but if you can suffer to give my latest thought the slightest bit of your attention it occurs to me what any of us might expect of our children just could be so fundamental it might change the world, (or western world at least, as I think the eastern countries of the world still hold the view I'm going to put forward).

If our own children, and children in general, be it in school or whatever it might be, (boy scout troops, or girl guides), are told there is a need for them to understand and express appreciation for those who love them, notwithstanding they'll probably appreciate this for themselves anyway, this could not only help breed more harmony in society, it could I believe, result in better outcomes for our children.

There we are, just a thought, (not every day you come up with a thought to maybe change the world ! ).

Maybe you could make clearer what you mean by this as it seems that people are understanding it in different ways

 

[Trish]

It is creepy. It reminds me of i.e. an "uncle" or "father" or "mother" using such an approach to say they deserved s.e.x.u.a.l favors from a child who would be bound not to tell, due to showing "appreciation" and "respect."

Definitely not saying Graham would ever have done that, but in general, that's the way it sounds.

I agree, I am sure Graham wasn't meaning that at all.

 

[grahamg]

I agree, I am sure Graham wasn't meaning that at all.

If its necessary to clarify to anyone seemingly unsure as to my meaning, it is simply as stated, "encouraging children to appreciate parents who love them", (this in my mind automatically rules out anyone abusing their child, and its odd to me that the thought ever appeared in anyone's mind).

I do know the head of a government organisation with responsibility towards children in Wales twenty years ago once stated: "he could envisage his not seeing his children being in their best interests if he had abused them",...., in other words "he could envisage either abusing his own children, or being judged as doing so", (and "every other parent has to be considered as being a potential abuser", is the only inference I can take from his words).

 

[grahamg]

I am sure there are differences but, equally, I think the basics still apply. I wouldn't suggest that you are completely wrong but, I don't think you are completely right either
See, basing your opinions solely on what you have read (or even what someone else has told you) is not nearly as interesting as hearing your own observations and experiences.

If an internet search has any merit in assessing the way different parts of the world appear to raise their children, here are some searches:

https://childandfamilyblog.com/east-west-parenting/

Quote:
"In the West, concerns about the importance of education have made parents ready for fresh thinking. They’re open to the idea that pushing their children hard to achieve academically may have something more to offer than laissez-faire Western approaches that have failed some children.

What does this cultural exchange tell us more broadly? The starting point is that good parenting is not uniform the world over. That’s because societies hold different goals for child development. Consequently, parents have different expectations of their children, and these expectations shape their child-rearing practices. The value differences are sometimes framed as “collectivism versus individualism,” “interdependence versus independence” or “self-orientation versus group-orientation”."

Another site here:
https://www.moms.com/parenting-western-vs-eastern/

And this one:
https://www.marham.pk/healthblog/eastern-vs-western-parenting-style/

Quote:
"Eastern vs Western: Which Parenting Style is Better? Best parenting style refers to the way you raise your child. Everything that you decide for your child, from their clothing to which school they join, comes under the umbrella of parenting. Parenting is no easy task because it affects every aspect of your child’s personality, including beliefs, thought processes, strengths and weaknesses, and self-confidence.
Parenting styles differ according to your geographical location because every country has different religious and cultural norms. We can classify parenting techniques into two main categories according to regions as Eastern and Western."

"Eastern parents instill morality, cultural values, and most importantly emotional support in their children at various stages of life. Standard practices of the eastern households include:

• Protective nature: Eastern parents shield their children from problems and difficult situations and strive to provide them with an ideal environment.
• Authoritative: Eastern parents make most decisions for their children and choose what is best for them.
• High Academic Expectations: They are willing to invest more time and money in their children’s education and pay for extra tuition classes to tutor their children. They are eager to make any sacrifice to send their kid to a good college and achieve good grades. And, in most cases, children do well in school.
• Joint family system: Children in Eastern parenting styles are given everything they need and are expected to repay by caring for them in old age. Children usually live with their parents after graduation and even after marriage in Pakistan and India."

 

[Pepper]

I used two basic things raising my child: 1. I vividly remembered my own childhood, my likes and dislikes and how I wanted to be treated; 2. I let my love for him rule.

No other 'tricks.' It's simple, really.

 

[Muskrat]

I think that just appreciation in general is lacking in most humans…not just younger ones. If only there was a way to impart the importance of acknowledgement and human kindness we would all be so much better off. At this point in society perhaps the best way is to do it ourselves. For instance…say thank you , compliment, smile, exercise tolerance. Change by example

 

[Nathan]

Respect can not be commanded, it is earned, that goes for gratitude as well. If you are firm-but-fair in raising your children, they will notice that, and likely incorporate those attributes in their own value system.

 

[grahamg]

Respect can not be commanded, it is earned, that goes for gratitude as well. If you are firm-but-fair in raising your children, they will notice that, and likely incorporate those attributes in their own value system.

Respect is slightly different from gratitude, or appreciation (as you acknowledge), and of course you'd have to think its implied you'd at least have had to do something worth appreciating if you've loved your child.

Anyway, here is a website with something to say about whether parents (or children) deserve respect, or must earn it first, (and its a bit nuanced they suggest):
https://parentspluskids.com/blog/should-parents-earn-respect

"Should we demand respect from our children? Should we teach them how to grant respect to us?
Do we automatically get respect our children or have them earn it from day one? These are important questions all parents should ask themselves."

"Should Parents Have to Earn Respect?
There’s a baseline of respect parents deserve from their kids because you’re the ones who gave birth to them, are raising them, and paying their bills. There’s a deeper level of respect parents don’t get by default but instead have to earn it.

That deeper level of respect is primarily what we’ll talk about in this article because there was a time when respect wasn’t earned from parents. It was given by virtue of having power over the children.
Today we know that children have to learn to respect their parents before they can learn to respect themselves. Earning their respect teaches them that they have value."

 

[grahamg]

I think that just appreciation in general is lacking in most humans…not just younger ones. If only there was a way to impart the importance of acknowledgement and human kindness we would all be so much better off. At this point in society perhaps the best way is to do it ourselves. For instance…say thank you , compliment, smile, exercise tolerance. Change by example

People with impeccable manners, a graceful approach to others, and somehow a magnetic style of behaviour drawing other people towards them do stand out dont they, (so much to aspire to for those like myself, not so cultured, polite or magnetic as they! ).

 

[grahamg]

I'm not sure what to think. A few months ago, new neighbors moved in across the street. If there is a noisy way to talk, drive, work, or do anything else, they will do it the noisy way. They have 2 outdoor dogs that bark or whine/whimper day and night.
Once I heard their adolescent daughter yell "I love you" to her parents as she left the house. I asked myself, "How can anyone love these people?"
So I don't know.

The saying that owners and their pets come to resemble one another does seem to be borne out sometimes doesn't it.

Lets hope the daughter does love her parents, (though I can understand your feelings about noisy neighbours too! ).

 

[grahamg]

That sounds creepy and emotionally unhealthy to me. No way would I teach my kid that someone who loves her deserves something in return for the love.
If I know (or think I know) that she does feel grateful and appreciative, I would encourage her to let her grandparents etc know, to send thank you notes, etc. And I am of course in favor of good manners. But, even for gifts she does not owe anyone feelings of appreciation. If she is uncomfortable getting a gift or affection, then she owes no one anything in return.
ETA - when my daughter's bio-father gave her a cell phone (secretly), what he got in return was a no-contact order.

I listened to a discussion about women who act as surrogates here in the UK on BBC radio, and the rules governing this kind of thing, (of course they're not generally in any way "bio" parents).
There would appear to be quite a lot of rules, and protections for the surrogate mothers here, but calling someone just a "bio" parent is an odd one, not least because if the biological link meant nothing at all there would be no reason to worry at all if babies got mixed up in the maternity ward, (an horrendous thought I know, and I'm only suggesting this thought to use an absurd argument).

Never mind, I'll put you down as not in favour of attempting to change the world by encouraging children to appreciate loving parents more, and move on.

 

[Trish]

If an internet search has any merit in assessing the way different parts of the world appear to raise their children, here are some searches:

https://childandfamilyblog.com/east-west-parenting/

Quote:
"In the West, concerns about the importance of education have made parents ready for fresh thinking. They’re open to the idea that pushing their children hard to achieve academically may have something more to offer than laissez-faire Western approaches that have failed some children.

What does this cultural exchange tell us more broadly? The starting point is that good parenting is not uniform the world over. That’s because societies hold different goals for child development. Consequently, parents have different expectations of their children, and these expectations shape their child-rearing practices. The value differences are sometimes framed as “collectivism versus individualism,” “interdependence versus independence” or “self-orientation versus group-orientation”."

Another site here:
https://www.moms.com/parenting-western-vs-eastern/

And this one:
https://www.marham.pk/healthblog/eastern-vs-western-parenting-style/

Quote:
"Eastern vs Western: Which Parenting Style is Better? Best parenting style refers to the way you raise your child. Everything that you decide for your child, from their clothing to which school they join, comes under the umbrella of parenting. Parenting is no easy task because it affects every aspect of your child’s personality, including beliefs, thought processes, strengths and weaknesses, and self-confidence.
Parenting styles differ according to your geographical location because every country has different religious and cultural norms. We can classify parenting techniques into two main categories according to regions as Eastern and Western."

"Eastern parents instill morality, cultural values, and most importantly emotional support in their children at various stages of life. Standard practices of the eastern households include:

• Protective nature: Eastern parents shield their children from problems and difficult situations and strive to provide them with an ideal environment.
• Authoritative: Eastern parents make most decisions for their children and choose what is best for them.
• High Academic Expectations: They are willing to invest more time and money in their children’s education and pay for extra tuition classes to tutor their children. They are eager to make any sacrifice to send their kid to a good college and achieve good grades. And, in most cases, children do well in school.
• Joint family system: Children in Eastern parenting styles are given everything they need and are expected to repay by caring for them in old age. Children usually live with their parents after graduation and even after marriage in Pakistan and India."

Blimey Graham! No offence but, I certainly won't be trawling through that lot!