Can the word “soul” carry significant meaning outside of a traditional religious context? I think so.

MarkD

Keeper of the Hounds & Garden
First let me turn up some cards: I come from a big family that stopped going to church soon after I started elementary school and before I got to high school I had thought to myself I’m an atheist. Of course for many Christians that’s exactly what I am but I didn’t struggle to get away from religion and harbor no resentment against it. I’m especially agnostic about “God” but deeply believe there is something more within than than the part that puts words together and works to make ends meet. I think there is something real, dynamic and important that gave rise to God belief. I just don’t think it was a being anything like a person. I think rather that it is something that arises naturally in consciousness much as our sense of having a self it a soul does. So what I’m wondering is if other people unmoored from traditional religious practice have come to think of “soul” as a meaningful concept.

To give an idea of what that might be I call on Wendel Berry and a passage from his wonderful book Jayber Crow:


And so I came along in time to know the end of the age of steamboating. I would learn later that there had been other ages of the river that I had arrived too late to know but that I could read about and learn to imagine. There was at first the age when no people were here, and I have sometimes felt at night that absence grow present in my mind, that long silence in which no human name was spoken or given, and the nameless river made no sound of any human tongue. And then there was the Indian age when names were called that have never been spoken in the present language of Port William. Then came the short ages of us white people, the ages of the dugout, the flatboat, the keelboat, the log raft, the steamboat. And I have lived on now into the age of the diesel towboat and recreational boating and water skiing. And yet it is hard to look at the river in its calm, just after daylight or just before dark, and believe that history has happened to it. The river, the river itself, leaves marks but bears none. It is only the water flowing in the path that other water has worn.

Or is that other water really “other”, or is it the same water always running, flowing always toward the gathering of all waters, and always rising and returning again, and again flowing? I knew this river first when I was a little boy, and I know it now when I am an old man once again living beside it … and almost seventy years! … and always when i have watched it I have been entranced and mystified. What is it? Is it the worn trough of itself that is a feature of the land and is marked on maps, or is it the water flowing? Or is it the land itself that over time is shaped by the flowing water, and it caught by no map?

The surface of the quieted river as I thought in those old days at Squire’s Landing, as I think now, is like a window looking into another world that is like this one except that it is quiet. Its quietness makes it seem perfect. The ripples are like the slats of a blind or a shutter through which we we see imperfectly what is perfect. Though that other world can be seen only momentarily, it looks everlasting. As the ripples become more agitated, the window darkens and the other world is hidden. As I did not know then but know now, the surface of the water is like a living soul, which is easy to disturb, is often disturbed, but, growing calm, shows what it was, is, and will be.”

I do think there is something essential to everyone of us which can be thought of as authentic. For me that is “soul”. I don’t think souls are any more eternal than raindrops which return by rivers to the sea to fall again and again as rain. But while what it is that is authentic for me restricts how I can be and and do, it is discovering and making our way accordingly that gives life meaning. Or so I think.
 

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Do you consider soul as different from Id? Or Ego?

Definitely different. I’m more in Jung’s camp than Freud’s, but even more so I find a like mind in James Hillman. I don’t think there is much mechanistic about our minds or soul. Natural yes, but simple mechanics? No.
 

I don't.

I was raised Protestant, in the Bible Belt and feel like a cultural Christian. If asked depending on who is doing the asking I sometimes say I am Christian, sometimes not. I appreciate the good things religion has done for us, and can respect people who believe. However I am agnostic and don't believe in any of the supernatural parts of religion. My concept of the soul falls into that category. I do use the word but don't mean to imply a real belief.

Congrats on your first thread!
 
Yes, there are others. Myself for one. I've said on various threads here that i don't believe in a 'personified' god. Early childhood spent a lot of time in various Protestant churches, but early teens i was more drawn to eastern philosophies, Buddhism, Daoism.

Studied psychology and brain function later in life. I'm more Jungian than Freudian too, but even more drawn to work of William James who thought room must be made in psychology for 'spirit', the soul.

I won't go into more detail right now, i have practical, incarnate chores (actually hauling firewood into the house, will be cutting kindling Friday) to get out of the way. But will be checking back to see how this conversation evolves and maybe contibute more.
 
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Definitely different. I’m more in Jung’s camp than Freud’s, but even more so I find a like mind in James Hillman. I don’t think there is much mechanistic about our minds or soul. Natural yes, but simple mechanics? No.
I think, despite how much i know about neurobiology, brain functions, that one's mind, one's consciousness is more than just the effect of social conditioning on the physical processes of data collection, retrieval, interpretation and understanding.
 
First let me turn up some cards: I come from a big family that stopped going to church soon after I started elementary school and before I got to high school I had thought to myself I’m an atheist. Of course for many Christians that’s exactly what I am but I didn’t struggle to get away from religion and harbor no resentment against it. I’m especially agnostic about “God” but deeply believe there is something more within than than the part that puts words together and works to make ends meet. I think there is something real, dynamic and important that gave rise to God belief. I just don’t think it was a being anything like a person. I think rather that it is something that arises naturally in consciousness much as our sense of having a self it a soul does. So what I’m wondering is if other people unmoored from traditional religious practice have come to think of “soul” as a meaningful concept.

To give an idea of what that might be I call on Wendel Berry and a passage from his wonderful book Jayber Crow:


And so I came along in time to know the end of the age of steamboating. I would learn later that there had been other ages of the river that I had arrived too late to know but that I could read about and learn to imagine. There was at first the age when no people were here, and I have sometimes felt at night that absence grow present in my mind, that long silence in which no human name was spoken or given, and the nameless river made no sound of any human tongue. And then there was the Indian age when names were called that have never been spoken in the present language of Port William. Then came the short ages of us white people, the ages of the dugout, the flatboat, the keelboat, the log raft, the steamboat. And I have lived on now into the age of the diesel towboat and recreational boating and water skiing. And yet it is hard to look at the river in its calm, just after daylight or just before dark, and believe that history has happened to it. The river, the river itself, leaves marks but bears none. It is only the water flowing in the path that other water has worn.

Or is that other water really “other”, or is it the same water always running, flowing always toward the gathering of all waters, and always rising and returning again, and again flowing? I knew this river first when I was a little boy, and I know it now when I am an old man once again living beside it … and almost seventy years! … and always when i have watched it I have been entranced and mystified. What is it? Is it the worn trough of itself that is a feature of the land and is marked on maps, or is it the water flowing? Or is it the land itself that over time is shaped by the flowing water, and it caught by no map?

The surface of the quieted river as I thought in those old days at Squire’s Landing, as I think now, is like a window looking into another world that is like this one except that it is quiet. Its quietness makes it seem perfect. The ripples are like the slats of a blind or a shutter through which we we see imperfectly what is perfect. Though that other world can be seen only momentarily, it looks everlasting. As the ripples become more agitated, the window darkens and the other world is hidden. As I did not know then but know now, the surface of the water is like a living soul, which is easy to disturb, is often disturbed, but, growing calm, shows what it was, is, and will be.”

I do think there is something essential to everyone of us which can be thought of as authentic. For me that is “soul”. I don’t think souls are any more eternal than raindrops which return by rivers to the sea to fall again and again as rain. But while what it is that is authentic for me restricts how I can be and and do, it is discovering and making our way accordingly that gives life meaning. Or so I think.
I am from a Christian background, grew up going to church. So, with that in mind, what you do with the "soul" is up to you. I think that giving your soul an eternal chance is of mega importance. Soul is a personality, a special something each person has and it is different from everyone else.
 
I don't.

I was raised Protestant, in the Bible Belt and feel like a cultural Christian. If asked depending on who is doing the asking I sometimes say I am Christian, sometimes not. I appreciate the good things religion has done for us, and can respect people who believe. However I am agnostic and don't believe in any of the supernatural parts of religion. My concept of the soul falls into that category. I do use the word but don't mean to imply a real belief.

Congrats on your first thread!
Feels a little naughty losing my thread starting virginity to a religiously themed one but so be it. Thanks.
 
spent a lot of time in various Protestant churches, but early teens i was more drawn to eastern philosophies, Buddhism, Daoism.

Studied psychology and brain function later in life I'm more Jungian than Freudian too, but even more drawn to work of William James who thought room must be made in psychology for 'spirit', the soul.

Likewise started out in a Protestant church (Methodist, not that I remember anything about it). When I was in my twenties I also looked into Eastern traditions but I don’t practice anything and am not aligned with any wisdom tradition. I tell my Christian online friends (don’t have any in real life, secular is the dominant worldview in my corner of the left coast) that I’m religiously feral. I make it clear that I’m not at all shopping but I am interested in exploring the aspects of their belief that find counterparts in my own. It’s certainly there but I usually need to do all the translation as doing so would feel heretical to many. Plus so many feel feel the weight of the great commission squarely on their shoulders, so I feel more than satisfied if they’ll even accept the finality of my choice and the oppressive unpleasantness I feel at having to fend off proselytizing. I also point out that I have the utmost respect for their faith and count it as something sacred which I would never want to upset. Some enjoy exploring the overlap between our views but for others it is not welcome and I’m fine with moving on.

I agree with you about William James being even more pertinent. The Varieties of Religious Experience is interesting for suggesting ritual can be a gateway to immediate experience. It doesn’t have to be all about evidence of distant, past miracles and expert witness which illicits mere assent to propositions, and if stays there it isn’t really adequate. The sacred is real and there is something dynamic and important that supports God belief - though I also don’t see it as person-like. Why should what is greater be understood as being like that which is less? I don’t personally think about whether souls are eternal or mortal. It doesn’t really matter to me. As I tell my online Christian friends, I think death which all know is coming is the end of separates us from what is more. Or as Cummings put it “death, as men call it, ends what they call men”.
 
I think that giving your soul an eternal chance is of mega importance.

I don’t feel the same urgency but from what I’ve experienced of what is more, complete separation from it is hell and nearness divine. Why should we wait for death for what is heavenly. If souls are eternal then every moment matters including these final dregs we have as we are now matter and are the only ones we can directly effect. I wouldn’t trade one moment now for an endless number later with harps and clouds later. If such there be fine, but if not there is nothing wrong with our lot.
 
“I think death which all know is coming is the end of separates us from what is more. Or as Cummings put it “death, as men call it, ends what they call men”.

@MarkD

I tend to agree.

If we were to attempt to counter the meaninglessness of our words, thoughts, deeds, in the face of mortality by the heartfelt sentiment we carry within our authenticity; I doubt it is [enough] to stay the reality that our beliefs have no meaning in the silence of death.

For it’s our live mock-epitaph in here, and now, where we cut, shape, significant parts of our personal world into acceptable narrative that grant us a viable audience of the living to witness the majestic color of our being; before we descend into true oblivion beneath grey muted gravestone.

We might feel significant and useful; yet in the end, “death, as men call it”; we are merely nothing more than a heap of ash swirling upon a “whispering wind” with an original voice, message, indigenous to our intimate self, which simply survives in absence as no longer being.
 
First let me turn up some cards: I come from a big family that stopped going to church soon after I started elementary school and before I got to high school I had thought to myself I’m an atheist. Of course for many Christians that’s exactly what I am but I didn’t struggle to get away from religion and harbor no resentment against it. I’m especially agnostic about “God” but deeply believe there is something more within than than the part that puts words together and works to make ends meet. I think there is something real, dynamic and important that gave rise to God belief. I just don’t think it was a being anything like a person. I think rather that it is something that arises naturally in consciousness much as our sense of having a self it a soul does. So what I’m wondering is if other people unmoored from traditional religious practice have come to think of “soul” as a meaningful concept.

To give an idea of what that might be I call on Wendel Berry and a passage from his wonderful book Jayber Crow:


And so I came along in time to know the end of the age of steamboating. I would learn later that there had been other ages of the river that I had arrived too late to know but that I could read about and learn to imagine. There was at first the age when no people were here, and I have sometimes felt at night that absence grow present in my mind, that long silence in which no human name was spoken or given, and the nameless river made no sound of any human tongue. And then there was the Indian age when names were called that have never been spoken in the present language of Port William. Then came the short ages of us white people, the ages of the dugout, the flatboat, the keelboat, the log raft, the steamboat. And I have lived on now into the age of the diesel towboat and recreational boating and water skiing. And yet it is hard to look at the river in its calm, just after daylight or just before dark, and believe that history has happened to it. The river, the river itself, leaves marks but bears none. It is only the water flowing in the path that other water has worn.

Or is that other water really “other”, or is it the same water always running, flowing always toward the gathering of all waters, and always rising and returning again, and again flowing? I knew this river first when I was a little boy, and I know it now when I am an old man once again living beside it … and almost seventy years! … and always when i have watched it I have been entranced and mystified. What is it? Is it the worn trough of itself that is a feature of the land and is marked on maps, or is it the water flowing? Or is it the land itself that over time is shaped by the flowing water, and it caught by no map?

The surface of the quieted river as I thought in those old days at Squire’s Landing, as I think now, is like a window looking into another world that is like this one except that it is quiet. Its quietness makes it seem perfect. The ripples are like the slats of a blind or a shutter through which we we see imperfectly what is perfect. Though that other world can be seen only momentarily, it looks everlasting. As the ripples become more agitated, the window darkens and the other world is hidden. As I did not know then but know now, the surface of the water is like a living soul, which is easy to disturb, is often disturbed, but, growing calm, shows what it was, is, and will be.”

I do think there is something essential to everyone of us which can be thought of as authentic. For me that is “soul”. I don’t think souls are any more eternal than raindrops which return by rivers to the sea to fall again and again as rain. But while what it is that is authentic for me restricts how I can be and and do, it is discovering and making our way accordingly that gives life meaning. Or so I think.
I come from a home/background differently. There is a heaven and a Father we call God who is very real and He cares for our souls so much so that He sent His son to pave a way for us to accept and therefore join them later after we pass from this life on earth to join Him in heaven. He gives us a soul to take care of and I thank Him everyday for all He has done for me and many others.
 
@MarkD

I tend to agree.

If we were to attempt to counter the meaninglessness of our words, thoughts, deeds, in the face of mortality by the heartfelt sentiment we carry within our authenticity; I doubt it is [enough] to stay the reality that our beliefs have no meaning in the silence of death.

For it’s our live mock-epitaph in here, and now, where we cut, shape, significant parts of our personal world into acceptable narrative that grant us a viable audience of the living to witness the majestic color of our being; before we descend into true oblivion beneath grey muted gravestone.

We might feel significant and useful; yet in the end, “death, as men call it”; we are merely nothing more than a heap of ash swirling upon a “whispering wind” with an original voice, message, indigenous to our intimate self, which simply survives in absence as no longer being.
Likewise started out in a Protestant church (Methodist, not that I remember anything about it). When I was in my twenties I also looked into Eastern traditions but I don’t practice anything and am not aligned with any wisdom tradition. I tell my Christian online friends (don’t have any in real life, secular is the dominant worldview in my corner of the left coast) that I’m religiously feral. I make it clear that I’m not at all shopping but I am interested in exploring the aspects of their belief that find counterparts in my own. It’s certainly there but I usually need to do all the translation as doing so would feel heretical to many. Plus so many feel feel the weight of the great commission squarely on their shoulders, so I feel more than satisfied if they’ll even accept the finality of my choice and the oppressive unpleasantness I feel at having to fend off proselytizing. I also point out that I have the utmost respect for their faith and count it as something sacred which I would never want to upset. Some enjoy exploring the overlap between our views but for others it is not welcome and I’m fine with moving on.

I agree with you about William James being even more pertinent. The Varieties of Religious Experience is interesting for suggesting ritual can be a gateway to immediate experience. It doesn’t have to be all about evidence of distant, past miracles and expert witness which illicits mere assent to propositions, and if stays there it isn’t really adequate. The sacred is real and there is something dynamic and important that supports God belief - though I also don’t see it as person-like. Why should what is greater be understood as being like that which is less? I don’t personally think about whether souls are eternal or mortal. It doesn’t really matter to me. As I tell my online Christian friends, I think death which all know is coming is the end of separates us from what is more. Or as Cummings put it “death, as men call it, ends what they call men”.
I look forward to seeing members of my family that have passed on. I will see them and I believe in the hereafter and all it's glory. I hold onto that just as you hold onto your opinions. Respect is present and hope for the better for you.
 
I look forward to seeing members of my family that have passed on. I will see them and I believe in the hereafter and all it's glory. I hold onto that just as you hold onto your opinions. Respect is present and hope for the better for you.
I see no point in having had children if I cannot be reunited with them forever. I’d also like to see grandma again, granddad, and all the others. So, I believe. However, if I am wrong, well, I’ll never know. 😊
 
First let me turn up some cards: I come from a big family that stopped going to church soon after I started elementary school and before I got to high school I had thought to myself I’m an atheist. Of course for many Christians that’s exactly what I am but I didn’t struggle to get away from religion and harbor no resentment against it. I’m especially agnostic about “God” but deeply believe there is something more within than than the part that puts words together and works to make ends meet. I think there is something real, dynamic and important that gave rise to God belief. I just don’t think it was a being anything like a person. I think rather that it is something that arises naturally in consciousness much as our sense of having a self it a soul does. So what I’m wondering is if other people unmoored from traditional religious practice have come to think of “soul” as a meaningful concept.

To give an idea of what that might be I call on Wendel Berry and a passage from his wonderful book Jayber Crow:


And so I came along in time to know the end of the age of steamboating. I would learn later that there had been other ages of the river that I had arrived too late to know but that I could read about and learn to imagine. There was at first the age when no people were here, and I have sometimes felt at night that absence grow present in my mind, that long silence in which no human name was spoken or given, and the nameless river made no sound of any human tongue. And then there was the Indian age when names were called that have never been spoken in the present language of Port William. Then came the short ages of us white people, the ages of the dugout, the flatboat, the keelboat, the log raft, the steamboat. And I have lived on now into the age of the diesel towboat and recreational boating and water skiing. And yet it is hard to look at the river in its calm, just after daylight or just before dark, and believe that history has happened to it. The river, the river itself, leaves marks but bears none. It is only the water flowing in the path that other water has worn.

Or is that other water really “other”, or is it the same water always running, flowing always toward the gathering of all waters, and always rising and returning again, and again flowing? I knew this river first when I was a little boy, and I know it now when I am an old man once again living beside it … and almost seventy years! … and always when i have watched it I have been entranced and mystified. What is it? Is it the worn trough of itself that is a feature of the land and is marked on maps, or is it the water flowing? Or is it the land itself that over time is shaped by the flowing water, and it caught by no map?

The surface of the quieted river as I thought in those old days at Squire’s Landing, as I think now, is like a window looking into another world that is like this one except that it is quiet. Its quietness makes it seem perfect. The ripples are like the slats of a blind or a shutter through which we we see imperfectly what is perfect. Though that other world can be seen only momentarily, it looks everlasting. As the ripples become more agitated, the window darkens and the other world is hidden. As I did not know then but know now, the surface of the water is like a living soul, which is easy to disturb, is often disturbed, but, growing calm, shows what it was, is, and will be.”

I do think there is something essential to everyone of us which can be thought of as authentic. For me that is “soul”. I don’t think souls are any more eternal than raindrops which return by rivers to the sea to fall again and again as rain. But while what it is that is authentic for me restricts how I can be and and do, it is discovering and making our way accordingly that gives life meaning. Or so I think.
You know, God is so different from people. He is not forceful and willingly gives you the choice to accept or reject his salvation plan. And it is a real choice. Don't wait until you die to find it out that it is real, then it will be too late. All this stuff that mankind dreams up about life and death and the hereafter - that is what is not real. What mankind dreams up to believe in is conjecture to please the person himself/herself. The effort Lee Strobbell put into proving there is no God is amazing-he started out an athiest. Went to great lengths to prove his point.
 
Oh yes, there is a soul in most people. I firmly believe this. Not a conscience, not of the heart, not of the head, but a distinct force of energy that is felt on earth, it is within us. At times, we can actually feel this "soul" or source of energy around us.
I am not saying God put it there for us, I am not saying where it comes from, this energy source, but it is definite.
 
You know, God is so different from people. He is not forceful and willingly gives you the choice to accept or reject

That fits with what I think has given rise to and still supports God belief too.

Don't wait until you die to find it out that it is real,
I also believe each day matters too. But need to rely on second hand sources when what it is is right there inside all along. What we believe about it matters much less than being connected and tuning in IMO.

What man dreams up to believe in is conjecture to please the person himself/herself. The effort Lee Strobbell put into proving

We agree on everything except whose foot the shoe is on. Everything we come to believe is conjecture if it is just based on evidence and arguments. I don’t require “proof” to know my wife loves me. That can be felt directly. Same goes for what I think gives rise to God belief. Proof is beside the point. Leastwise we agree that it matters. Faith is important.
 
Oh yes, there is a soul in most people. I firmly believe this. Not a conscience, not of the heart, not of the head, but a distinct force of energy that is felt on earth, it is within us. At times, we can actually feel this "soul" or source of energy around us.
I am not saying God put it there for us, I am not saying where it comes from, this energy source, but it is definite.

I think it is the most essential part of what we are and the most elusive thing to explain or justify.
 
...I tell my Christian online friends (don’t have any in real life, secular is the dominant worldview in my corner of the left coast) that I’m religiously feral.
Oh that---'religiously feral'-- resonates with me. Of course, whenever i've taken one of those 'What is your spirituality' quizzes, whether in a magazine or online--my result is usually Pagan--because like @Aneeda i believe every living thing is imbued with a 'soul' of some kind and is connected to universal 'soul' or consciousness.

I don’t feel the same urgency but from what I’ve experienced of what is more, complete separation from it is hell and nearness divine. Why should we wait for death for what is heavenly. If souls are eternal then every moment matters including these final dregs we have as we are now matter and are the only ones we can directly effect. I wouldn’t trade one moment now for an endless number later with harps and clouds later. If such there be fine, but if not there is nothing wrong with our lot.

Having had an NDE, i don't view disincarnate life in terms of heaven/hell. But i agree with the sentiment i made bold in this comment. It is why i live the way i do.
 
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Oh that---'religiously feral'-- resonates with me. Of course, whenever i've taken one of those 'What is your spirituality' quizzes, whether in a magazine or online--my result is usually Pagan--because like @Aneeda i believe every living thing is imbued with a 'soul' of some kind and is connected to universal 'soul' or consciousness.



Having had an NDE, i have don't view disincarnate life in terms of heaven/hell. But i agree with the sentiment i made bold in this comment. It is why i live the way i do.

I feel the same way if I understand you correctly. Disincarnated life is pure speculation from my POV and nothing I spend much time on. Out of respect for wisdom traditions which do get a whole lot more specific on the subject, I’ve stopped emphasizing how little I care about such possibilities. Being embodied is all I know or can know and it is enough to be grateful for everything.
 


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