Assessing the wishes of the child in regard to contact with a parent undermines those wishes

IMO, the family court and foster care systems rely way too heavily on "experts". Psychology in particular doesn't have accurate measurements or even precise evidence; it's all hypotheses and guess-work based on observation. Why that is valued over human instinct is beyond me.

I instinctively knew Paxton was being emotionally abused, and I phoned it in. No one believed me. They didn't even ask him. When his mother began physically abusing him, I sent them photos. Almost a year later, Paxton was finally taken from that... his mother. That action was based on a recent recording and some xrays. Meanwhile, he has suffered abuse from his own mother for nearly a year. I spotted it within 2 months.

But Instincts have no value. They're irrelevant where it comes to what authorities decide for children, no matter how long or how close your relationship is or was. Guesswork, experimentation, and the ideas of childless philosophers carry far more weight in these decisions.
 

You're being a bit unfair here, because anyone who can read knows professor Jonathan Hafen has predicted western family law systems are "Abandoning Children to their Autonomy", (its the title of his book after all), and he has stated the following:

"...., when state-enforced policies undermine traditional parental rights, those same policies will inevitably undermine the assumption of parental responsibility. To undermine parental initiative is not wise when society has found no realistic alternative to it. Indeed, it may be that children have a right to policies that require parental accountability. Yet contemporary society reveals increasing adult indifference toward the nurturing of children. The CRC’s attitude only exacerbates this tendency."

Doesnt that change strike you as being undesirable?
It's in the wording. Big difference between speculation

""...., "when" state-enforced policies undermine traditional parental rights, those same policies will inevitably undermine the assumption of parental responsibility."

And committing to a statement that needs research, documentation so facts can be presented to change what "may" not be working. I emphasize "may" because facts have to be generated. Remove the words "WHEN" & "INEVITABLY" to read like this.


"" state-enforced policies undermine traditional parental rights, those same policies will undermine the assumption of parental responsibility."

Speculation is great because it isn't stated as fact.
 
Speculation is great because it isn't stated as fact.
However, it's sometimes used as though it is a fact. And that depends on how influential or well-known the speculator is, not necessarily what his/her "track record" looks like. A few "great successes" easily takes attention off dozens of bad results and utter failures.
 

However, it's sometimes used as though it is a fact. And that depends on how influential or well-known the speculator is, not necessarily what his/her "track record" looks like. A few "great successes" easily takes attention off dozens of bad results and utter failures.
Thus the thought the system isn't 100% perfect. I asked graham if he thought children have rights to chose which parent to live with.

A simple yes or no would have worked. I don't know of statistics showing successes & failures. Only personal experiences good or bad show up in posts. As a topic using articles & speculation by Jonathan Hafen, published in 1995). & what might be different now hasn't gone anywhere.
 
It's in the wording. Big difference between speculation
""...., "when" state-enforced policies undermine traditional parental rights, those same policies will inevitably undermine the assumption of parental responsibility."
And committing to a statement that needs research, documentation so facts can be presented to change what "may" not be working. I emphasize "may" because facts have to be generated. Remove the words "WHEN" & "INEVITABLY" to read like this.

"" state-enforced policies undermine traditional parental rights, those same policies will undermine the assumption of parental responsibility."
Speculation is great because it isn't stated as fact.
Can you call a book "Abandoning children to their Rights" and at the same time not be making a statement of any kind?

You cant really mean that Jonathan Hafen raised the issues in this statement, quote: "when state-enforced policies undermine traditional parental rights, those same policies will inevitably undermine the assumption of parental responsibility.",...., without meaning that it is happening in their view, (and they state it is already happening, quote: "contemporary society reveals increasing adult indifference toward the nurturing of children.").

Why would anyone choose to refute a book making no assertions of any kind(?).

Putting all that one side though, and if you like assume Jonathan Hafen has made statements worth refuting, is the family law system undermining parents to a degree that cannot be justified and doing real harm?
 
IMO, the family court and foster care systems rely way too heavily on "experts". Psychology in particular doesn't have accurate measurements or even precise evidence; it's all hypotheses and guess-work based on observation. Why that is valued over human instinct is beyond me.
I instinctively knew Paxton was being emotionally abused, and I phoned it in. No one believed me. They didn't even ask him. When his mother began physically abusing him, I sent them photos. Almost a year later, Paxton was finally taken from that... his mother. That action was based on a recent recording and some xrays. Meanwhile, he has suffered abuse from his own mother for nearly a year. I spotted it within 2 months.
But Instincts have no value. They're irrelevant where it comes to what authorities decide for children, no matter how long or how close your relationship is or was. Guesswork, experimentation, and the ideas of childless philosophers carry far more weight in these decisions.
I like what you have to say about our instincts.

I do think there is "experimentation" going on in family law as you suggest, and even guesswork.

Finally this pesky word "love" comes to my mind, as in who truly loves those children being considered by the family court system, and what does it take for those loving relationships the children does enjoy or has enjoyed, to be protected?
 
I like what you have to say about our instincts.

I do think there is "experimentation" going on in family law as you suggest, and even guesswork.

Finally this pesky word "love" comes to my mind, as in who truly loves those children being considered by the family court system, and what does it take for those loving relationships the children does enjoy or has enjoyed, to be protected?
California law encourages contact between children and their beloved relatives, however, Family Court and CPS have never demonstrated any encouragement whatsoever, nor good speed in facilitating contact with anyone besides the mother.

To be honest, I don't know how they get away with it.
 
Thus the thought the system isn't 100% perfect. I asked graham if he thought children have rights to chose which parent to live with.

A simple yes or no would have worked. I don't know of statistics showing successes & failures. Only personal experiences good or bad show up in posts. As a topic using articles & speculation by Jonathan Hafen, published in 1995). & what might be different now hasn't gone anywhere.
US family courts put an age perimeter on that. They might ask a 5 y/o, but their answer is only used as part of the assessment, not taken at face value. Kids from around age 14 can choose. It varies from state to state, and some states will still make a different decision based on fitness of the parent and/or their home.
 
Kids from around age 14 can choose.
A sibling of a foster child I had, chose to have no family at all and to live in a children's home instead. I was surprised she was allowed to choose that, but she'd been in and out of the system for years so I guess she knew what would work best for her. Though if she could have found a permanent family I'd think that would be better than living in a children's home until aging out of foster care.
 
California law encourages contact between children and their beloved relatives, however, Family Court and CPS have never demonstrated any encouragement whatsoever, nor good speed in facilitating contact with anyone besides the mother.
To be honest, I don't know how they get away with it.
The broader picture is what Jonathan Hafen is pointing to in his books and articles, (as no doubt are those opposing him, and refuting his assertion that we are "Abandoning children to their Autonomy").

If marriage is so uncertain an institution (as well all know it is nowadays), then this throws up question marks about parenting, parent-child relationships, as Hafen mentions, and then there are the host of policies we'd probably agree undermine at least one of the parents, and if Hafen is correct leads to quote: "contemporary society reveals increasing adult indifference toward the nurturing of children"!
 
Let's forget for a moment what Hafen has written.

As this pertains to children.

Autonomy is the ability to make your own decisions about what to do rather than being influenced by someone else or told what to do.

What is your opinion?

Do you believe children should be able to have the right to chose whether they want to live with only one parent or be emancipated?


Do you believe children should never be able to have the right to chose whether they want to live with only one parent or be emancipated?
 
Let's forget for a moment what Hafen has written.

As this pertains to children.

Autonomy is the ability to make your own decisions about what to do rather than being influenced by someone else or told what to do.

What is your opinion?

Do you believe children should be able to have the right to chose whether they want to live with only one parent or be emancipated?


Do you believe children should never be able to have the right to chose whether they want to live with only one parent or be emancipated?
I went to school with a kid who chose his mom because he felt sorry for her, and another who chose her dad so he wouldn't get angry. They were about 9 or 10, and this was back in the day when courts weren't as intrusive in family affairs. Both of them wound up being raised by their grandparents because things didn't go well. The mom became a barfly and the dad molested his daughter. It's lucky for the kids they had decent grandparents, but neither of them grew into decent adults.

On the other hand, when my former foster son was only 2 1/2, he begged CPS to let him stay with me after the court gave his mother custody. And I'd have been a good dad for him. I'd have taught him to be a decent person. Now he's 4, and he's in his 3rd foster home. It's a really good one, and I'm happy for him, but the poor little man is asking CPS to let him visit me...they have never listened to him. He told them "My mom is mean to me" when he was only 2 1/2, and nothing happened. Well, his preschool teacher called his mother and told her what Paxton said. Guess how that worked out for him?

Anyway, I've come to believe that, in this type situation, a toddler can make better choices than an adolescent.
 
Thus the thought the system isn't 100% perfect. I asked graham if he thought children have rights to chose which parent to live with.

A simple yes or no would have worked. I don't know of statistics showing successes & failures. Only personal experiences good or bad show up in posts. As a topic using articles & speculation by Jonathan Hafen, published in 1995). & what might be different now hasn't gone anywhere.
coming back to this...

Astoundingly, state courts and state-appointed "family counselors" rely pretty heavily on various child psych author's data and speculations drawn from observations during various therapies, including experimental ones. There are no concrete conclusions in that field, yet observations are charted as though they are conclusive. And from what I've seen, CPS and family courts rely pretty heavily on those charts and data when deciding the fate of "displaced" kids.

Or, more precisely, sticking to the charts and data ensures the support of tax dollars. Courts and especially child protection services can make decisions and verdicts that line up nicely with favored charts and data, and this apparently pleases the state treasurer.
 
Let's forget for a moment what Hafen has written.
As this pertains to children.
Autonomy is the ability to make your own decisions about what to do rather than being influenced by someone else or told what to do.
What is your opinion?
Do you believe children should be able to have the right to chose whether they want to live with only one parent or be emancipated?
Do you believe children should never be able to have the right to chose whether they want to live with only one parent or be emancipated?
You are right to try to focus on the "bigger picture" here, and ask challenging questions I'm sure I'll struggle to answer to your satisfaction at least, (luckily another more able forum member has put forward strong arguments to assist in criticising the system I dislike).

On the subject of children's wishes, I believe I'm right in telling you our UK courts used to assume thirty years ago a child would spout the views of the parent they resided with most of the time, (hence your very direct questions could be argued against by asking you a question as to whether you believe children can be "vulnerable to manipulation and control"?, though I'm not going to!).

I will now confess to you I find myself almost completely beaten by what I see as the issues confronting any marginalised parent, and feeling this I'm drawn to all kinds of conclusions I don't wish to have to consider.

If I were to try to advise someone approaching our UK family court system for the first time seeking their support, I'd be pushed to say anything positive I truly believed.

Will you therefore accept for now my contention, (in response to your questions), asking children their views "in itself" can be harmful?
 
@grahamg
"contemporary society reveals increasing adult indifference toward the nurturing of children"!
I agree. Government agencies and state courts are no less indifferent, or as increasingly indifferent.
Its troubling isn't it, you do have to wonder what goes on at that level.

I was once told by someone representing our UK Lord Chancellors department, (then the name of the government organisation with the highest legal authority in our country) in response to a question I raised, that "They understood the pressures exerted upon children in high conflict divorce cases".

They did not in my view answer the question I raised, (or the short sentence quoted was as near as they got in my view).

I'd asked them whether they agree with the statement made by a Canadian lawyer who said, "There is a moral failure in smugly asserting children have rights without taking into consideration their psychological and practical vulnerability to manipulation and control".

The Canadian lawyer was a young woman called Goldwater, writing in 1991, and I came across her assertion, (that I hope I've remembered correctly word for word), in a book called " Lost Children" written by Penny Cross.

My admiration for Penny is enormous, who I've met once at a meeting in our UK house of parliament in Westminster, and she lost all contact with her four children within a couple of months of splitting from her husband, (I think they were adolescents).
The outcome for her eldest son was very bad indeed, as he died aged twenty one in circumstances she didn't entirely spell out, (but he had written into his will at this young age that "his mother was not to be permitted to attend his funeral"!).

Returning to the response I received from the UK government legal body, I did try to follow up by asking them to clarify their views on Goldwater's statement, but got no further reply, (this being the only issue I've ever raised with them).

I believe the intention of their one letter was to try to tell me I should have faith in the legal system, (regardless of anything else perhaps!).

Did the legal system do its job properly when I approached them? Whether they did or not I'm left feeling as I mentioned in the post above this one, that I could have had no faith in it, knowing ultimately our UK legal system felt no obligation to try to assist me, (once the law changed in the 1990s).
 
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@Murrmurr
I've posted that the system isn't 100% perfect.

This from your post #38 about Paxton

Quote
"Now he's 4, and he's in his 3rd foster home. It's a really good one, and I'm happy for him, but the poor little man is asking CPS to let him visit me...they have never listened to him. He told them "My mom is mean to me" when he was only 2 1/2, and nothing happened. Well, his preschool teacher called his mother and told her what Paxton said. Guess how that worked out for him?"

At 2 1/2
"My mom is mean to me" What does that mean? Unless CPS is there 24/7 watching exactly what "mean" might be how can the system be faulted? He was in pre school, verbal by Paxton prompted a call to the mother. The teacher called the mother not CPS. Isn't that reasonable for verbal?

My questions
1.What alerted CPS to cause him to be placed in foster care.
2. Why different homes in a reasonably short period of time.
3. Why the ongoing placements?

I don't expect answers since you wouldn't be privy to the reasons, it's just a way to ask you if you think CPS was acting in Paxtons best interest.


Continuing with the content in your post at age 4.
"Now he's 4, and he's in his 3rd foster home. It's a really good one, and I'm happy for him,

It took time doesn't that sound like the system is working?
 
Will you therefore accept for now my contention, (in response to your questions), asking children their views "in itself" can be harmful?
How would you change the system? Everything from initial contact to a court decision.
 
How would you change the system? Everything from initial contact to a court decision.
I have only one change to propose, and it is one our UK family courts have considered, (maybe it has even been legislated for but not enacted).

It is a "rebuttable presumption in favour of contact", (hence a qualified right, requiring the courts to support parents approaching them unless there is a good reason not to do so).

I hope you appreciate the brief/succinct response to your question!
 
Its troubling isn't it, you do have to wonder what goes on at that level.

I was once told by someone representing our UK Lord Chancellors department, (then the name of the government organisation with the highest legal authority in our country) in response to a question I raised, that "They understood the pressures exerted upon children in high conflict divorce cases".

They did not in my view answer the question I raised, (or this short sentence was as near as they got in my view).

I'd asked them whether they agree with the statement made by a Canadian lawyer who said, "There is a moral failure in smugly asserting children have rights without taking into consideration their psychological and practical vulnerability to manipulation and control".

The Canadian lawyer was a young woman called Goldwater, writing in 1991, and I came across her assertion, (that I hope I've remembered correctly word for word), in a book called " Lost Children" written by Penny Cross.

My admiration for Penny is enormous, who I've met once at a meeting in our UK house of parliament in Westminster, and she lost all contact with her four children within a couple of months of splitting from her husband, (I think they were adolescents).
The outcome for her eldest son was very bad indeed, as he died aged twenty one in circumstances she didn't entirely spell out, (but he had written into his will at this young age that "his mother was not to be permitted to attend his funeral"!).

Returning to the response I received from the UK government legal body, I did try to follow up by asking them to clarify their views on Goldwater's statement, but got no further reply, (this being the only issue I've ever raised with them).

I believe the intention of their one letter was to try to tell me I should have faith in the legal system, (regardless of anything else perhaps!).

Did the legal system do its job properly when I approached them? Whether they did or not I'm left feeling as I mentioned in the post above this one, that I could have had no faith in it, knowing ultimately our UK legal system felt no obligation to try to assist me, (once the law changed in the 1990s).
All a legal system can do is decide people's fate based on evidence and eyewitness testimony. Paxton was cruelly abused by his mother for over a year, but no one witnessed it. They had her word and his, and he was only 3. He could say "My mommy is mean" but he would only say it to me. She could say "He falls a lot," and the investigation is over.

Now he's 4, and (finally) she's prohibited from contacting him in any way, but an upcoming court decision could reunite them....again. This is the 3rd time she's been in court over her poor parenting skills (or, complete lack of them, more like). Maybe the 3rd one's the charm.

And I have as much faith in that superstition as I do the Family Court judge (zero).

Here's something that might stoke the fire that's burning your arse: I took photos of bruises and scratches that I found on Paxton's entire body when his mom dropped him off here for a weekend early last year. Dozens of bruises, the worst and largest ones on his head and face and there was a fresh wound on his lip. I sent those photos to his CPS caseworker. She never looked at them. She didn't even open my email. I called her supervisor about that, and nothing happened. I called the director of social services, and 2 weeks later, the caseworker and her supervisor were fired. But my photos were not used at that trial, and they won't be used at the upcoming one.

Guess why?

They are an embarrassment to CPS (child protection services). That's my guess. They've had those photos for since Feb 2021, and they're very good evidence - damning, in fact, because the ones on his head and face were clearly caused by an adult's hands, and the wrap-around bruises on his arm looked exactly like a thumb and 4 fingers, and even had a few small curved cuts where she'd obviously dug her nails in - but they weren't presented in court then, and they won't be used now, because they highlight CPS's failure to do their job; which was to protect Paxton from his abusive mother.
 
I have only one change to propose, and it is one our UK family courts have considered, (maybe it has even been legislated for but not enacted).

It is a "rebuttable presumption in favour of contact", (hence a qualified right, requiring the courts to support parents approaching them unless there is a good reason not to do so).

I hope you appreciate the brief/succinct response to your question!
(if I understand you correctly) Here's the problem with that...

Again, in Paxton's case, everyone involved, judges, caseworkers, parole officers, and even I was convinced Paxton's father was a decent guy who just made a mistake - a year ago he used bodily force to stop Paxton's mother from hurting him...and then he threatened to kill her. But so did I, I just had the good sense to not do it out loud.

Now it's a year later, and everyone was still sympathetic toward the father, and even though the court slapped a no-contact order against the mom, they granted the dad twice-weekly visits with Paxton and his younger twin siblings. This guy is so nice and polite, and calm and affectionate with his kids, the judge actually considered him a good candidate for eventually getting full custody of all 3 kids.

Until last week, that is. Last week the father was arrested and charged with 4 counts of robbery and 1 attempted robbery. And 5 days later he confessed that he was stealing the money and saving it up so he could abduct the kids, collect their mother, and run off to Mexico.

Ay-yi-yi!
 
@Murrmurr
I've posted that the system isn't 100% perfect.

This from your post #38 about Paxton

Quote
"Now he's 4, and he's in his 3rd foster home. It's a really good one, and I'm happy for him, but the poor little man is asking CPS to let him visit me...they have never listened to him. He told them "My mom is mean to me" when he was only 2 1/2, and nothing happened. Well, his preschool teacher called his mother and told her what Paxton said. Guess how that worked out for him?"

At 2 1/2
"My mom is mean to me" What does that mean? Unless CPS is there 24/7 watching exactly what "mean" might be how can the system be faulted? He was in pre school, verbal by Paxton prompted a call to the mother. The teacher called the mother not CPS. Isn't that reasonable for verbal?

My questions
1.What alerted CPS to cause him to be placed in foster care.
2. Why different homes in a reasonably short period of time.
3. Why the ongoing placements?

I don't expect answers since you wouldn't be privy to the reasons, it's just a way to ask you if you think CPS was acting in Paxtons best interest.


Continuing with the content in your post at age 4.
"Now he's 4, and he's in his 3rd foster home. It's a really good one, and I'm happy for him,

It took time doesn't that sound like the system is working?
(Check my comment #45 for some details, too)

Frankly, I don't know how the CPS system can work. Their decisions are mostly based on who they think is probably not lying. The only cases where it's all cut and dried are when someone reports a kid in a cage or a kid that's obviously malnourished, etc.

Paxton, and a year later, his twin siblings, were taken by CPS when their mother tested positive for meth and THC in the labor room. So, she didn't even spend a day with him (nor them) before he went to a receiving home. He'd been there for 3 weeks when his grandmother, my mother's next-door neighbor for 4 decades, told me all about this and I offered to foster him. I'd just gotten a "Resource Family" license a few months earlier.

The mother, Tara, was ordered to go to rehab, NA meetings, and counseling. CPS pays for all that. While CPS looked for a facility with an available bed, Tara was allowed to come here and visit Paxton under my supervision. His dad came, too. The visits were regular the first few weeks, then some were missed, and then they became real sporadic. I had to turn them away early one morning because they'd obviously been on a meth binge all night. They weren't even supposed to be there til 2pm.

Anyway, then Tara got pregnant with the twins and went into hiding until they were born, and then she finally entered in-patient rehab, so Paxton and I didn't see her for about a year. He was 5 months old when she entered rehab, and, because she didn't progress well, he was 13 months old when she finally graduated and was granted visitation.

Tara was moved to "transitional housing" and failed 3 drug tests. When Paxton was 20 months old, CPS started talking to me about adoption. Meanwhile, Tara had been granted weekends with her kids at her TH apartment, under staff supervision. At the TH facility, she won badges for attending NA meetings and doing certain chores and generally being a good person, and when Paxton was 28 months old, court granted her custody of all 3 kids. She'd told her CPS-funded attorney that she only wanted the twins, but, naturally, the attorney told her to never say that again.

So, she got all 3 kids and their dad moved them in with him, into a house his dad owned. The grandma tells me they drink and fight and Paxton is scared, so I tell Tara I'll take him off her hands; bring him over on weekends. And she did. Some weekends were 5 days long, none were less than 3. That's when I started seeing a change in his attitude and injuries on him, and he told me his mom was mean to him.

8 months later, CPS took the kids again, but not because of the changes and injuries I reported, it was because the father called 911. He and Tara had a bad physical fight, and it was over her abuse of Paxton. Cops came, they called CPS, the CPS worker tests Tara for drugs, and it's positive. The worker took the kids because of the drug test. The abuse was forgotten about. Because it's so hard to prove? idk. This all happened in another county, so the kids were placed in a foster home there. Fortunately, it was a good one. About 2 months later, I was granted a weekend visit with Paxton, which the foster mom said was very beneficial, so they became routine...every other weekend.

A whole year later, Tara completes rehab again, and the court gave her kids back to her. By that time, CPS was talking to the foster mom about adoption, and she and her husband had decided to do that; they loved the kids. They liked me a lot, too. I was "Uncle Frank" to Paxton, the twins, and the foster parents own 2 kids.

7 months later, Paxton's preschool teacher started reporting suspicious bruises and scratches on him. Then the kids' grandma's home security caught Tara abusing Paxton. The kids were taken a 3rd time. Because me and Michelle were still in our 1-br apartment, the kids were placed with the couple who fostered the twins right after they were born and til they were 18 months.

Tara's hearing is scheduled for soon, but I don't know when. CPS wants her charged with abuse of a minor and exposing minors to abuse of a minor.
 
@Knight might be sorry he asked.
Not sorry I asked. You filled in details that were missing in the post I questioned. Your continued interest in Paxtons welfare managed to get CPS employees fired. The system follows protocol that in the case with Paxton don't align with the best interests of the child.

Perhaps your continuing interest in his welfare will eventually help him. We can all hope for the best.

My continuing posts are about children having the right to express themselves which grahamg seems to want disallowed.
 


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