This week marked the 20th anniversary of the U.S. invasion of Iraq

[Nosy Bee-54]

I was thinking civil reparations. Crimes against Iraqi citizens, court-ordered reparations.

A guy from Syria who I worked with for a couple years told me that Iraq does have WMDs but after 9-11 they moved them into a huge underground storage facility in the Syrian desert.

Could be.

Bolded: Human nature to believe self serving info. What's that word: anecdotal. At least most know that the WMD aren't under the desk in the Oval Office. The White House Correspondents Association Dinner skit by W settled that.

But speaking of Syria, my understanding is that we have troops in that country. I would bet that the Syrian government did not invite the US military. Like our violation of Iraq's sovereignty, we are doing the same in Syria. Yet, the US harps daily that Ukraine's sovereignty should be respected. Too much hypocrisy!

So if the US supports reparations for Ukraine, then there should be reparations for 100,000+ killed in Iraq.

 

[Nosy Bee-54]

No, we do not owe Iraq reparations.

If the US had been found guilty of war crimes, then we would.

ICC is selective in prosecution. Some war crimes are bad, others are deemed acceptable. Just depends on the country that commits the atrocities. For instance, with Afghanistan, the US told the court that it would be sanctioned if it proceeded with an investigation against the US.

"LAST WEEK, the new chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court — the only international body with the authority to prosecute individuals over genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes — sought to reopen a previously suspended investigation in Afghanistan but with a caveat. The probe would not include conduct by the United States and its allies, including the U.S.-backed former Afghan government, all of which have committed crimes that fall squarely within the court’s jurisdiction."

https://theintercept.com/2021/10/05/afghanistan-icc-war-crimes/

"A lawyer who represents Afghan victims of suspected U.S. torture in the ICC investigation said the narrowing of its focus was "deeply flawed".

"Allowing powerful states to get away (with) multi-year, multi-continent torture against so many, feeds impunity for all," she said on Twitter."

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-...hanistan-war-crimes-investigation-2021-09-27/

 

[Been There]

If you look back to 2003, here is a summary of how the war began. The Abraham Lincoln had been at sea for 6 months and were heading home. The Commander received a message to turn around and head into the Persian Gulf. Upon arrival into the Gulf, the teams received their orders. This was all a well planned venture and precise timing was of the essence.

At the exact time as ordered, an F-14 took off from the Lincoln. That plane was followed by radar jamming equipment onboard an EA-6B. After that, many other F-14’s and F-18’s were ordered to their targets. The planes had so many bombs onboard that they needed to use their after burners to get their plane in the air once they were sling shot from the deck of the Lincoln.

When the planes arrived at their target and started dropping bombs, the Iraqi Army started shooting SAM’s and AAA’s. In addition to the sky power, 130,000 U.S. ground troops and 30,000 coalition troops were sent in. Needless to say, the American forces were too much for the Iraqis to handle.

BTW, the Abraham Lincoln was one of the largest carriers at war in the Mid East and based approximately 90 planes and helicopters.

I was thinking civil reparations. Crimes against Iraqi citizens, court-ordered reparations.

A guy from Syria who I worked with for a couple years told me that Iraq does have WMDs but after 9-11 they moved them into a huge underground storage facility in the Syrian desert.

Could be.

We heard that same rumor and have been looking for these “hidden” WMD’s, but still nothing has been found. We had suspicions that if the WMD’s were moved, Algeria would have been a possibility, but nothing was found there either. We still have a presence in the Mid East and are still looking as our Intel comes up with possibilities from their sources. I wouldn’t completely doubt that there are are some WMD’s, but I gotta’ see them,

 

[Murrmurr]

If you look back to 2003, here is a summary of how the war began. The Abraham Lincoln had been at sea for 6 months and were heading home. The Commander received a message to turn around and head into the Persian Gulf. Upon arrival into the Gulf, the teams received their orders. This was all a well planned venture and precise timing was of the essence.

At the exact time as ordered, an F-14 took off from the Lincoln. That plane was followed by radar jamming equipment onboard an EA-6B. After that, many other F-14’s and F-18’s were ordered to their targets. The planes had so many bombs onboard that they needed to use their after burners to get their plane in the air once they were sling shot from the deck of the Lincoln.

When the planes arrived at their target and started dropping bombs, the Iraqi Army started shooting SAM’s and AAA’s. In addition to the sky power, 130,000 U.S. ground troops and 30,000 coalition troops were sent in. Needless to say, the American forces were too much for the Iraqis to handle.

BTW, the Abraham Lincoln was one of the largest carriers at war in the Mid East and based approximately 90 planes and helicopters.

We heard that same rumor and have been looking for these “hidden” WMD’s, but still nothing has been found. We had suspicions that if the WMD’s were moved, Algeria would have been a possibility, but nothing was found there either. We still have a presence in the Mid East and are still looking as our Intel comes up with possibilities from their sources. I wouldn’t completely doubt that there are are some WMD’s, but I gotta’ see them,

A major complication in any sort of prosecution of the US military by the ICC is that the invasion of Iraq also included British, Australian, and Polish forces, and over 30 other countries were involved in the aftermath.

 

[ElCastor]

In retrospect I believe Vietnam and Iraq were largely steps in an attempt to impose a US form of democracy on the world - a world of intended peace and prosperity. Clearly we have failed. In an age of ignorance, envy, and hatred combined with a proliferation of nuclear weapons it‘s hard to imagine a bright future for humanity.

 

[Murrmurr]

In retrospect I believe Vietnam and Iraq were largely steps in an attempt to impose a US form of democracy on the world - a world of intended peace and prosperity. Clearly we have failed. In an age of ignorance, envy, and hatred combined with a proliferation of nuclear weapons it‘s hard to imagine our world evolving into one

It was more like steps to avoid Vietnam becoming a communist / socialist country. The US would have been at ease with Vietnam being ruled by any form of gov't other than either of those. And, for a while there, it looked like Ho Chi Minh was leaning toward at least a somewhat democratic society, and then he did a 180 at the last minute.

 

[Della]

I think it would be impossible to figure out who we owe reparations to and how much. To me we would be much better off if we just stopped going to war without lots of serious thought about what we hope to achieve and what our chances of winning are.

After the horrific loss of lives in Vietnam, I thought it would be a long time before we went to war again. Nope. Off we went over oil and then over a terrorist action. We say we teach children history so we wont make the same mistakes, but apparently that's just another myth.

 

[SeniorBen]

I think it would be impossible to figure out who we owe reparations to and how much. To me we would be much better off if we just stopped going to war without lots of serious thought about what we hope to achieve and what our chances of winning are.

After the horrific loss of lives in Vietnam, I thought it would be a long time before we went to war again. Nope. Off we went over oil and then over a terrorist action. We say we teach children history so we wont make the same mistakes, but apparently that's just another myth.

Some people are incapable of learning from past mistakes. What's ironic is the president who got us into the Iraq war was a history major in college! It may have been more of a personal grievance that was the impetuous for our invasion and occupation of Iraq.

 

[Been There]

A major complication in any sort of prosecution of the US military by the ICC is that the invasion of Iraq also included British, Australian, and Polish forces, and over 30 other countries were involved in the aftermath.

That’s usually been the norm. The U.S. takes the lead and cleans out the scum and then in walks the johnnies come lately.

 

[WhatInThe]

... In an age of ignorance, envy, and hatred combined with a proliferation of nuclear weapons it‘s hard to imagine a bright future for humanity.

I don't want to steer off topic too much but as far as humanity goes it's filled with a history of war. Even more disturbing many think there was a nuclear war or event in ancient India. Have to wonder if this is the destiny of our current civilization. Rinse repeat.

https://thenorthlines.com/ancient-india-and-nuclear-warfare/

 

[ElCastor]

It was more like steps to avoid Vietnam becoming a communist / socialist country. The US would have been at ease with Vietnam being ruled by any form of gov't other than either of those. And, for a while there, it looked like Ho Chi Minh was leaning toward at least a somewhat democratic society, and then he did a 180 at the last minute.

Can‘t disagree. At the time it was known as the DominoTheory. Didn’t work. Like it or not the role of the United States as a world leader and model for the future doesn‘t seem to be working. I hope mankind’s destiny doesn’t lie in a pile of radioactive ash, but it’s beginning to look like a possibility.

 

[squatting dog]

What about the war in Afghanistan? Do you want to pay reparations there too?

equipment now controlled by Taliban:​

When you tally in the loss of American lives, I'd say we've paid them enough.
What we left behind... that we know for sure.

2,000 Armored Vehicles Including Humvees and MRAP’s
-75,989 Total Vehicles: FMTV, M35, Ford Rangers, Ford F350, Ford Vans, Toyota Pickups, Armored Security Vehicles etc
-45 UH-60 Blachhawk Helicopters
-50 MD530G Scout Attack Choppers
-ScanEagle Military Drones
-30 Military Version Cessnas
-4 C-130’s
-29 Brazilian made A-29 Super Tocano Ground Attack Aircraft
208+ Aircraft Total
-At least 600,000+ Small arms M16, M249 SAWs, M24 Sniper Systems, 50 Calibers, 1,394 M203 Grenade Launchers, M134 Mini Gun, 20mm Gatling Guns and Ammunition
-61,000 M203 Rounds
-20,040 Grenades
-Howitzers
-Mortars +1,000’s of Rounds
-162,000 pieces of Encrypted Military Comunications Gear
-16,000+ Night Vision Goggles
-Newest Technology Night Vision Scopes
-Thermal Scopes and Thermal Mono Googles
-10,000 2.75 inch Air to Ground Rockets
-Recconaissance Equipment (ISR)
-Laser Aiming Units
-Explosives Ordnance C-4, Semtex, Detonators, Shaped Charges, Thermite, Incendiaries, AP/API/APIT
-2,520 Bombs
-Administration Encrypted Cell Phones and Laptops all operational
-Pallets with Millions of Dollars in US Currency
-Millions of Rounds of Ammunition including but not limited to 20,150,600 rounds of 7.62mm, 9,000,000 rounds of 50.caliber
-Large Stockpile of Plate Carriers and Body Armor
-US Military HIIDE, for Handheld Interagency Identity Detection Equipment Biometrics
-Lots of Heavy Equipment Including Bull Dozers, Backhoes, Dump Trucks, Excavators

 

[ElCastor]

I don't want to steer off topic too much but as far as humanity goes it's filled with a history of war. Even more disturbing many think there was a nuclear war or event in ancient India. Have to wonder if this is the destiny of our current civilization. Rinse repeat.

https://thenorthlines.com/ancient-india-and-nuclear-warfare/

There are those who would, uh, disagree on the India thing …
https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4541
But whatever, that doesn’t make our current situation any less dire.

 

[deaver]

aside from the reparations topic of this op... BUT if the united states is such a sh*t hole why are so many trying so dang hard to get here? and why in time of a conflict is the question always asked 'are the americans coming"? did we put outselves on the line of international defense, I know, supposedly, with the statue of liberty we invited the world to come here. there is lots of land out in new mexico arizona utah that is mostly empty let the foreigners go there most of it is like their country anyway, baren desert lifeless boreing....

 

[Murrmurr]

Can‘t disagree. At the time it was known as the DominoTheory. Didn’t work. Like it or not the role of the United States as a world leader and model for the future doesn‘t seem to be working. I hope mankind’s destiny doesn’t lie in a pile of radioactive ash, but it’s beginning to look like a possibility.

I'm a bit more optimistic than you. Democracy and Capitalism will work if Americans change their voting habits and learn the connections between the government and economic corruption.

I know it's a long-shot, but I honestly think it could happen. I even think it's inevitable ...if enough of us manage to avoid brain damage.

 

[ElCastor]

I'm a bit more optimistic than you. Democracy and Capitalism will work if Americans change their voting habits and learn the connections between the government and economic corruption.

I know it's a long-shot, but I honestly think it could happen. I even think it's inevitable ...if enough of us manage to avoid brain damage.

I don't question that Democracy and Capitalism will work. They are working. Russia and China may never have embraced Democracy, and I doubt they ever will, but they entertained Capitalism when Communism failed. What we are up against are traditional dictatorships that utilize forms of free enterprise as it suits them. Russia's Oligarchs thrive under a Putin dictatorship, and China's Special Economic Zones practice free enterprise. They both hate the US because we have positioned ourselves as a competitor and as leader of what remains of the Free World. With us out of the picture China would no doubt rule Asia, and Russia Europe. Both would feed on the third world. I hope that never happens, but Russia and China don't appear to have any internal opposition. Their defeat will take a lot more than "adjustments" in the United States.

 

[Murrmurr]

I don't question that Democracy and Capitalism will work. They are working. Russia and China may never have embraced Democracy, and I doubt they ever will, but they entertained Capitalism when Communism failed. What we are up against are traditional dictatorships that utilize forms of free enterprise as it suits them. Russia's Oligarchs thrive under a Putin dictatorship, and China's Special Economic Zones practice free enterprise. They both hate the US because we have positioned ourselves as a competitor and as leader of what remains of the Free World. With us out of the picture China would no doubt rule Asia, and Russia Europe. Both would feed on the third world. I hope that never happens, but Russia and China don't appear to have any internal opposition. Their defeat will take a lot more than "adjustments" in the United States.

Absolutely. The US has got to stop being generous with Xi Jinping in any way. But you're mistaken that Xi has no internal opposition. He does, even after cleaning house right after the last "election," the old Jiang Zemin faction is still very present in their secret allies and former leader's "princelings."

 

[Lavinia]

I'm not condoning slavery, (and/or the fact that this thread appears to be morphing), but it seems that the Anglo world in general has become a pearl-clutching subdivision of international humanity.

Slaves in the US south, and the Caribbean isles, primarily came from West Africa; who captured and sold them, Arabs and other black Africans for the most part.

Slavery was/(is) practised pretty much worldwide, but do you hear of other nationalities donning sackcloth & ashes and regularly pleading for atonement?

You cannot change history, (although the Mamluks took a shot at it https://www.historytoday.com/miscellanies/who-were-mamluks ).

Glad you said that. To hear some people talk, you would think that black Americans were the only victims of slavery. The Russians and Germans used captured prisoners as slave labour during WW11, so did the Japanese.

 

[Alligatorob]

My opinion will be very unpopular I am sure, but I believe the western world needs to get out of the Middle East and parts of Africa, and stay out. Screw their oil, just get out and stay out! They hate the influence we have and frankly we are appalled by their actions.

We no longer need their oil

I think you both are right. And believe that they would continue to sell oil if we got out, too much money in it not to.

 

[ElCastor]

Absolutely. The US has got to stop being generous with Xi Jinping in any way. But you're mistaken that Xi has no internal opposition. He does, even after cleaning house right after the last "election," the old Jiang Zemin faction is still very present in their secret allies and former leader's "princelings."

Well, let’s hope a democratic faction wins In China. For now our best hope in Russia is a Ukraine victory that leaves Putin humiliated and defeated. Time will tell.