What is socialism?

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oldlongwalker said:
Casting Socialism as the antithesis of Capitalism is not helpful. Look at the Mondragon corporation in Spain. It is entirely employee owned by over 84,000 workers. It is the 7th largest company in Spain in terms of asset turnover. Recently in the US the owner of Bob's Red Mill just gave the entire company to the employees.
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Yep. But all I can say is “so?” I lost your point. Mondragon is what we could call “an embryo of the future socialist business”. I’ll have to look into the details of Bob’s Red Mill. Or better yet I could go visit his Red Mill since it’s just across town.

oldlongwalker said:
There is clearly a difference between the US and the Nordic countries in terms of the greater emphasis on government run social structures, e.g., healthcare. I would call that socialist in the sense of all citizens contributing towards the good of all, regardless of whether each individual benefits personally. But those countries are fundamentally capitalist in their economic systems.
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I’ve talked to people in Norway, Finland, and some other Nordic countries and they’re pretty irritated with the suggestion that they’re socialist. They adamantly declare they’re capitalist. And I agree. Politically it looks like their governments are slowly doubling down on capitalism as they swing to the right a bit.
 
Medusa said:
I don't want to jump into the middle of a heated debate, the fundamentals of which I'm not solid enough on to do so. However, communism and even anarchy have interested, fascinated me. On research (meaning a quick Google) I've found that it is actually socialism, rather than communism, I find to be a beautiful ideal, on paper, but not so much in practical application.
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Yes, that’s how it looks: impractical and idealistic. And it may be so. But congrats to you on realizing the communism/socialism connection. And that connection is actually fascinating. No one, no group, no political party has tried to establish communism because communist society cannot be imposed by force. I’ll be happy to explain this so you will see it clearly.

But first I want to explain that back in the very early 1900s there were just socialists and socialist parties. In time the socialists gradually moved toward an advocacy of a peaceful transition to socialism accomplished by electing favorable candidates who would pass the necessary legislation. There was a split. On the other side were the socialists who insisted that the transition HAD TO BE a violent revolution because the ruling class would have it no other way. Eventually this group broke away and called themselves “communists”.

These communists eventually staged revolutions in Russia, China, and in other countries. They were called “communist revolutions” even though the plan of the communists was always to establish socialism. And the USA, never to be a country to miss an opportunity to confuse the enemy, began spreading the propaganda that those communists were establishing communism and communist societies in those countries. Not true. Communist society cannot be imposed by force.

Are you too bored yet for an explanation of that last sentence? If not I’ll post it.
 
Medusa said:
It's human nature, right now. That's what I'm trying to get across when saying that this, our current situation in that capitalism may or may not be the only workable (well doable) social structure is because we as a race are not yet ready for a higher form of society.
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Do you think individuals are ready to run a business yet like Mondragon does and has done since 1956?
 
Senter said:
But like I just said to Murrmurr, that’s not an accurate rendition of events and facts.
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I'm not really representing events and facts here so much as a snapshot (which I suppose could only be supported by events and facts... maybe) of the place we are currently in our socio/evolutionary arc.
 
Senter said:
Do you think individuals are ready to run a business yet like Mondragon does and has done since 1956?
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Individuals. Individuals are capable of great things, yet. But we have to be capable of supporting a new structure, way of living, as a society. That means everybody. And thus, far, when this has been tried, where power can be grabbed, it has been. Utopias turn to Dystopias.
 
Senter said:
Yes, that’s how it looks: impractical and idealistic. And it may be so. But congrats to you on realizing the communism/socialism connection. And that connection is actually fascinating. No one, no group, no political party has tried to establish communism because communist society cannot be imposed by force. I’ll be happy to explain this so you will see it clearly.

But first I want to explain that back in the very early 1900s there were just socialists and socialist parties. In time the socialists gradually moved toward an advocacy of a peaceful transition to socialism accomplished by electing favorable candidates who would pass the necessary legislation. There was a split. On the other side were the socialists who insisted that the transition HAD TO BE a violent revolution because the ruling class would have it no other way. Eventually this group broke away and called themselves “communists”.

These communists eventually staged revolutions in Russia, China, and in other countries. They were called “communist revolutions” even though the plan of the communists was always to establish socialism. And the USA, never to be a country to miss an opportunity to confuse the enemy, began spreading the propaganda that those communists were establishing communism and communist societies in those countries. Not true. Communist society cannot be imposed by force.

Are you too bored yet for an explanation of that last sentence? If not I’ll post it.
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I would think that imposing communism by force would be the playing out of an oxymoron.

And thank you for the explanations and interestings discussion. :)
 
Medusa said:
Wouldn't it be wonderful if a person's sense of success and fullfillment came from the success of the whole? - I know I'm just dreaming, but still, maybe we'll get there eventually.
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It’s happening in workers’ co-ops. There is over 600 in the USA now and 30,000 around the world.
 
Senter said:
Oooo, Oooo. Here are two you may like…..


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I appreciate your attempt to help me out with this subject, but there is a reason the video I sent is under five minutes. LOL I don't have the attention span for these types of videos. Weirdly, I can watch chess championships for hours... now I think about it.
I am interested in the subject and this discussion, however. :)
 
Medusa said:
Individuals. Individuals are capable of great things, yet. But we have to be capable of supporting a new structure, way of living, as a society. That means everybody. And thus, far, when this has been tried, where power can be grabbed, it has been. Utopias turn to Dystopias.
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There are known reasons that has happened, and the ways of preventing it again is known. Theoretically. Like everything else about this since it hasn’t succeeded yet due to known reasons.
 
Senter said:
It’s happening in workers’ co-ops. There is over 600 in the USA now and 30,000 around the world.
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Yes, and that is great, inspiring even, but it's a movement, Senter, not society as a whole.
I know a lot of issues start at a grass roots level and get huge, but this would need to be universal and I simply don't think we, as a race, are there yet.
We should definitely keep striving, reaching, however.
 
Senter said:
There are known reasons that has happened, and the ways of preventing it again is known. Theoretically. Like everything else about this since it hasn’t succeeded yet due to known reasons.
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Yes, here's were we come together on this. Marxism works on paper, literally.

Do you think though that knowing the solutions, the way people should act, is enough?
Because the problem I see there is in getting people to act as whatever ideal we're implementing dictates.
Dictates turns to dictatorships. Implementing turns to enforcing. Utopias (with the best of intentions) turn to Dystopias.

We can't make people behave with more compassion toward each other without enforcing a dictatorship.

This if fun. :)
 
Medusa said:
I appreciate your attempt to help me out with this subject, but there is a reason the video I sent is under five minutes. LOL I don't have the attention span for these types of videos. Weirdly, I can watch chess championships for hours... now I think about it.
I am interested in the subject and this discussion, however. :)
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Ok. I understand. Maybe this is a better option. You can browse headings for sections that interest you …...

https://www.socialism101.com/basic
 
Medusa said:
Yes, and that is great, inspiring even, but it's a movement, Senter, not society as a whole.
I know a lot of issues start at a grass roots level and get huge, but this would need to be universal and I simply don't think we, as a race, are there yet.
We should definitely keep striving, reaching, however.
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Right. I’ve been studying into this for 50 years but not with any intensity, but still…..

Tell you what. If you’re interested you might pose some questions relating to what you just posted here and I’ve quoted and maybe I can shed some light on it for you. No promises!
 
Senter said:
Right. I’ve been studying into this for 50 years but not with any intensity, but still…..

Tell you what. If you’re interested you might pose some questions relating to what you just posted here and I’ve quoted and maybe I can shed some light on it for you. No promises!
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I will take you up on that, as I love a good, meaty dicussion.
Thank you, @Senter
 

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