What is socialism?

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Murrmurr said:
Wouldn't we have to become one culture globally? That has never been the case in the entire history of human kind, which started about 250,000 years ago, give or take 100,000 years. And we recently reached a milestone; 8 billion people, give or take a few million.
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Yes. I'm pretty sure I've said something similar earlier in the thread, at least once.
I'm not sure what to add here, Murrmurr. :)
 

Senter said:
It’s not about knowing how people act or making them act in any way. It’s about going out among the public and finding out what concerns them most, finding ways of addressing that, taking it back to them to explain the ideas, and getting them interested enough to be involved in whatever way and at whatever level they’re comfortable with. It’s about collective, democratic organizing of agreed-upon action to solve problems.

How can we correct global warming that scientists say is already creating extinctions and threatening our own survival? How about finding ways to end fossil fuel usage or at least reduce it to a fraction? How can we end medical costs that are twice what other countries pay yet they have healthcare as good or better than the US? How about a public option? How about nationalizing healthcare? How about making drug companies non-profit and regulating it?

The point is to get people involved and make a difference.
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Good Morning,

I agree with your thought process here, however, I am dubious about the probability of its ultimate implementation, globally, as it would need to be.

I've think we've touched on this in that I've mentioned there have been and continue to be grassroots-type movements about various impending issues, which is great, but not likely to catch fire in the way that would be needed for a global, cultural change.

At least, it hasn't happened yet and I don't see it in the near future as, as I've mentioned, I don't think we, as a race, a collective organism, have evolved to a point wherein we can support it - the it in this case being socialism, global socialism.

I agree, it's a good idea to keep reaching, however. How else will we evolve?
 

Medusa said:
Good Morning,

I agree with your thought process here, however, I am dubious about the probability of its ultimate implementation, globally, as it would need to be.

I've think we've touched on this in that I've mentioned there have been and continue to be grassroots-type movements about various impending issues, which is great, but not likely to catch fire in the way that would be needed for a global, cultural change.

At least, it hasn't happened yet and I don't see it in the near future as, as I've mentioned, I don't think we, as a race, a collective organism, have evolved to a point wherein we can support it - the it in this case being socialism, global socialism.

I agree, it's a good idea to keep reaching, however. How else will we evolve?
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True. Not everyone everywhere wants everything the same. Humans are individuals, not a collective organism.
 
Murrmurr said:
"I don’t see social diversity being a problem." I certainly do.

Re: the rest; Yeah, that's what I was talking about (in a few words). We have corrupt capitalism and that's no big secret. It's why so many young people are attracted to socialism. But ask someone who grew up in, for example, the socialist soviet union if they would like to return to that and you'll get a resounding No.

I won't debate about whether the USSR was pure socialism or not because it's moot. Socialism is not immune to corruption. Neither is democracy, communism, democratic socialism, any other ism, or even religious-based systems of government.

They are all completely corruptible. But why? hint: "there is no ideal society" (paraphrased)
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Could you detail for me how you see diversity to be a problem? What problems do you believe it would likely cause?

Apparently you know the USSR is not a good example of what we’re talking about. But regarding corruption, as you said, no system is immune. We sure have plenty in the US. In the USSR power was given to bureaucrats who abused it. One example is the appointment of managers over industry with powers to control those industries. That isn’t significantly different from our situation in which those who profit the most being able to manage healthcare, fossil fuels, drugs, prisons, and any number of other things, for their own profit. In the case of the USSR those managers were given the power to identify and eliminate any equipment they deemed obsolete or unnecessary, and to do so in whatever manner they may choose. There was then a great sell-off of industrial machinery and equipment that enriched the managers and left the country with a production shortfall.

No system yet utilized has ever eliminated controlling power from the top beneficiaries of the system. But that would be the central goal and plan of socialism. Call it whatever you prefer, but it needs to eliminate private profit and the power associated with that profit.
 
Sippican said:
Hopefully we never get there.
Why would a hard working successful person want to support a leech on society? So in your scenario, one neighbor goes to work every day, works long hours, gets raises for his/her contribution, provides for his family....and his/her neighbor decides to stay home, able to work, but chooses not to and they view that as success and happiness, leeching off government handouts, basically taking from his successful neighbor. Is that the world you want?
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How is that managed now? It’s not perfect. For example my neighbor where I last lived for 20 years never worked a day while I was there. He claimed back injury and was on disability but he regularly worked in his yard digging, mowing, and doing all the usual things without any sign of difficulty, and he was teaching his 18-year-old son how to do the same. But that’s one example among a total of probably about 1.5%. So how is it managed now? Simple. The rule today is “from each according to his ability (work), to each according to his work (paycheck)”. That would remain very much the same under socialism. In fact, people like you and I would be able to contribute to developing ways to constantly reduce such abuses.
 
Medusa said:
Yes, I've been saying something similar throughout this conversation. We are not ready, as a whole culture, to support such an ideal as socialism. Hopefully we're evolving toward that end.
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But how is it “idealism”? How are we not ready? How would it be different than it is today?
 
Murrmurr said:
Wouldn't we have to become one culture globally? That has never been the case in the entire history of human kind, which started about 250,000 years ago, give or take 100,000 years. And we recently reached a milestone; 8 billion people, give or take a few million.

Have you ever seen Star Wars - A New Hope? It was Episode lV in a series tells a multi-millennia story of multicultural societies that, by episode 12, still haven't gotten life right. You've got your dictators, your emperors, power struggles, feuds and wars, land-grabs and greed, slavery and serfdom, and endless....useless....negotiations.

Too realistic to be a sci-fi/fantasy. :p
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Well, Marx did write that socialism would eventually involve every country, but capitalism (private profit) has involved most countries, so what the….

He also wrote that capitalism would not be progressively eliminated until the leading capitalist power, the USA, became socialist. Then other countries would follow suit, one by one.

You’re going to judge the feasibility of a proposed collective, democratic system on the basis of a MOVIE??
 
Medusa said:
Senter, is this not what Castro tried to do?
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Yes, with great opposition from capitalist countries led by the US. Today, Cuba is transitioning selected government operations to workers’ co-ops and the leadership declares that although the US embargo and other actions are doing serious harm to Cuba, they continue to “build socialism”. And from the reports of US journalists and Cuban residents and officials that I’ve read, it looks to be true as they still manage to provide what they can for their people.

There is information available to research this and I could provide some links if you like.
 
Senter said:
Well, Marx did write that socialism would eventually involve every country, but capitalism (private profit) has involved most countries, so what the….

He also wrote that capitalism would not be progressively eliminated until the leading capitalist power, the USA, became socialist. Then other countries would follow suit, one by one.

You’re going to judge the feasibility of a proposed collective, democratic system on the basis of a MOVIE??
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Marxists still hang onto his words with great hope. Putin, for example.

And of course I'm not judging the feasibility of anything based on a movie. Jeeze, gimme a break, man.
But those movies are a fine example of human-ness. How does the saying go? Art mimicking reality?... something like that.
 
oldaunt said:
True. Not everyone everywhere wants everything the same. Humans are individuals, not a collective organism.
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So why do you think people, individuals, citizens would try to create a “one size fits all” solution? You wouldn’t. I wouldn’t. And it wouldn’t be necessary or even favored by anyone I can think of.
 
Senter said:
Could you detail for me how you see diversity to be a problem? What problems do you believe it would likely cause?



No system yet utilized has ever eliminated controlling power from the top beneficiaries of the system. But that would be the central goal and plan of socialism. Call it whatever you prefer, but it needs to eliminate private profit and the power associated with that profit.
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To your question: No, I can't. My answer might very well be reported to Matrix. Have you never had a rousing debate about some ...um... sticky subject with someone from a very different culture from yours?

I absolutely disagree that a better system of gov't would need to eliminate private profit. And I'll point out that the power profit affords a person does not have to mean that person gets to have power over people's lives. That is what has to change.
 
Murrmurr said:
Marxists still hang onto his words with great hope. Putin, for example.

And of course I'm not judging the feasibility of anything based on a movie. Jeeze, gimme a break, man.
But those movies are a fine example of human-ness. How does the saying go? Art mimicking reality?... something like that.
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Putin only quotes Marx when it serves Putin, and I’ve never heard him do it anyway. You indicate you have so please do me a big favor and post a link to such a statement from Putin. It would help your viewpoint significantly. Thanks.

Sure, art mimics the reality that we are familiar with. Otherwise it would seem too alien, faked, and fantasy to sell well. Star Wars was, of course, a fantasy as it was but the familiar underpinnings helped make it something we could relate to. But to think an advanced future requires that construct would be silly. Here’s another fantasy that takes a different tack. It’s just one minute long or less.

 
Murrmurr said:
To your question: No, I can't. My answer might very well be reported to Matrix. Have you never had a rousing debate about some ...um... sticky subject with someone from a very different culture from yours?

I absolutely disagree that a better system of gov't would need to eliminate private profit. And I'll point out that the power profit affords a person does not have to mean that person gets to have power over people's lives. That is what has to change.
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You don’t seem to realize that the extreme wealth private profit brings is the cause of most of our major national problems, and that they cannot be corrected as long as profit and wealth is in play. Take healthcare for example. Give it some thought along with global warming, homelessness, inflation, and debt. How can power over people’s lives be stopped as long as we have a government that refuses to end lobbying, corporate campaign funding, buying of politicians, insider trading, and all the other roads to riches for politicians? You first have to elect people who can personally resist the lure of riches and will legislate reasonable pay for themselves, AND create a system in which no campaign contributions are allowed and money is not called “speech”. Campaigns should be funded ONLY by citizens without large contributions allowed. Only then would our system actually be “of the people, by the people, for the people. As it is it’s of, by, and for top corporations and continuance of the system that made it possible for them to be on top.

Who can you advocate for political office who would do that? We’ll need about 300 of them.
 
Senter said:
Putin only quotes Marx when it serves Putin, and I’ve never heard him do it anyway. You indicate you have so please do me a big favor and post a link to such a statement from Putin. It would help your viewpoint significantly. Thanks.

Sure, art mimics the reality that we are familiar with. Otherwise it would seem too alien, faked, and fantasy to sell well. Star Wars was, of course, a fantasy as it was but the familiar underpinnings helped make it something we could relate to. But to think an advanced future requires that construct would be silly. Here’s another fantasy that takes a different tack. It’s just one minute long or less.

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I'm familiar with Star Trek. That's another good one. And they also never solved the problems of an intergalactic society. Because you might not know, the protagonists in the Star Wars movies also wanted to achieve intergalactic peace and harmonious cooperation.

It's common knowledge that one of Putin's goals in life is to make all the world socialist Russia. He even coined a phrase for it: "Russkiy mir" - "Russian world." It's social totality associated with Russian culture.

A good source for a lot about it is 2 YouTube channels called Vlad Vexler and Vlad Vexler Chat. Vexler is an expert on Russian culture, a philosopher, teacher, and lecturer, and he says "My channel addresses the cultural, artistic & political challenges we all face."

Check it out.

And for what life was like growing up in Soviet Ukraine (from 1970-something to 1991), check out a channel called Ushanka Show. That one is very informative, but also very entertaining.
 
Medusa said:
Good Morning,

I agree with your thought process here, however, I am dubious about the probability of its ultimate implementation, globally, as it would need to be.

I've think we've touched on this in that I've mentioned there have been and continue to be grassroots-type movements about various impending issues, which is great, but not likely to catch fire in the way that would be needed for a global, cultural change.

At least, it hasn't happened yet and I don't see it in the near future as, as I've mentioned, I don't think we, as a race, a collective organism, have evolved to a point wherein we can support it - the it in this case being socialism, global socialism.

I agree, it's a good idea to keep reaching, however. How else will we evolve?
Click to expand...
A good, proven system of improvement and providing solutions to vexing problems would eventually become global, I expect. No need to organize the world. Heck, look at what’s happening in France, Britain, Russia, Brazil, and several other countries today. Millions of their people in countries with smaller populations that that of the USA are turning out to protest conditions. They’re ahead of us! We should be so engaged!

I never expected a large enough violence-prone mob would show up to try to railroad an immoral, lying, admirer and follower of Hitler into office either, but we all got surprised. I think we are very ready to begin developing strategies for solving our problems ourselves. Already we are seeing a journalist or two writing about the UN’s reports on climate change and saying that if we are going to prevent disaster that is on our doorstep, we will have to organize ourselves to deal with the problem.
 
Senter said:
Yes, with great opposition from capitalist countries led by the US. Today, Cuba is transitioning selected government operations to workers’ co-ops and the leadership declares that although the US embargo and other actions are doing serious harm to Cuba, they continue to “build socialism”. And from the reports of US journalists and Cuban residents and officials that I’ve read, it looks to be true as they still manage to provide what they can for their people.

There is information available to research this and I could provide some links if you like.
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Hey, I'm caught at the moment, but have seen these and am looking forward to further conversation. :)
 
Murrmurr said:
I'm familiar with Star Trek. That's another good one. And they also never solved the problems of an intergalactic society. Because you might not know, the protagonists in the Star Wars movies also wanted to achieve intergalactic peace and harmonious cooperation.
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Yeah. Another fantasy.

Murrmurr said:
It's common knowledge that one of Putin's goals in life is to make all the world socialist Russia. He even coined a phrase for it: "Russkiy mir" - "Russian world." It's social totality associated with Russian culture.
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No. Not “socialist Russia”. You said you don’t want to debate the socialism of Russia but you keep raising the issue, so here we go.
Russia diverted from the socialist path long before it ever reached it. Lenin actually recommended in his NEP what Russia has become and he called it “state capitalism”. Who are we to say it’s socialism then??? Lenin also said that if that path were taken there would be a future need for another revolution to transition to socialism. So please stop repeating misleading falsehoods. It’s harmful to the public as it only reinforces propaganda we’ve been fed.

Murrmurr said:
A good source for a lot about it is 2 YouTube channels called Vlad Vexler and Vlad Vexler Chat. Vexler is an expert on Russian culture, a philosopher, teacher, and lecturer, and he says "My channel addresses the cultural, artistic & political challenges we all face."

Check it out.
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If you really want to promote a favorable view of Russia, be my guest. But if you want to promote a warning and an unfavorable view of Russia, try using info from those advocating what Russia was supposed to become but didn’t. You and I and everyone else in the US have been exposed to many decades of propaganda. Some are more aware of it than others. Indeed, some even declare there is no propaganda, which only shows the effectiveness of the propaganda because there is no country on this planet that doesn’t produce propaganda favorable to itself, Russia included. And most people are in fact deeply affected by it, including the people of Russia. So when watching a political or economic video about Russia or any other country, it would serve us well to view it from a class standpoint. “What class does this serve?"

Murrmurr said:
And for what life was like growing up in Soviet Ukraine (from 1970-something to 1991), check out a channel called Ushanka Show. That one is very informative, but also very entertaining.
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I don’t need to. For what life is like here in the US, check out Counterpoint and Common Dreams. There. How’s that?
 
Medusa said:
Hey, I'm caught at the moment, but have seen these and am looking forward to further conversation. :)
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If you want conversation from me, feel free to ask me whatever you like. Meanwhile I’ll post a few more posts here.

Want suggestions? Yesterday you mentioned that you might like to know more about communism and why it cannot be imposed by force. Or maybe a bit about what it would actually be?
 

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