What is socialism?

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oldaunt said:
Socialism is the AXE body spray of political ideology. It never does what it claims to do, but people too young to know better keep buying it anyway.
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Very true. I‘ve seen the same. Younger people confronted with a world of work and competition for jobs can secretly dread what awaits them. Socialism is a world not unlike the family environment in which they are, or were, raised - a situation in which they do as they are told and In return a roof over their head and food on a plate is automatically provided.
 

Senter said:
If you want conversation from me, feel free to ask me whatever you like. Meanwhile I’ll post a few more posts here.

Want suggestions? Yesterday you mentioned that you might like to know more about communism and why it cannot be imposed by force. Or maybe a bit about what it would actually be?
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What I was saying yesterday is that I don't believe communism or socialism can be imposed by force as that would be oxymoronic. It would turn a utopian ideal into a dystopian reality.

What I'm more interested in, rather than a question/answer session, is an engaging conversation. :)

I'm going to the Zoom at 2:30pm, though, so will pop in and out. (I know you've posted in response to a couple of my posts and I do want to get back to those.)

Oh, also, looking into,
Socialism
Michael Newman
 

Senter said:
No. Not “socialist Russia”. You said you don’t want to debate the socialism of Russia but you keep raising the issue, so here we go.
Russia diverted from the socialist path long before it ever reached it. Ok, but you asked me a direct question about Putin.


If you really want to promote a favorable view of Russia, be my guest. Wrong thing to say when you didn't even go check out those channels.
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Senter said:
I don’t need to. For what life is like here in the US, check out Counterpoint and Common Dreams. There. How’s that?
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You don't need to? I'm not surprised you feel that way.
If we became socialist or what you're hoping for within your lifetime, I'll bet a million Nuthins you will want to be in charge.
 
Medusa said:
What I was saying yesterday is that I don't believe communism or socialism can be imposed by force as that would be oxymoronic. It would turn a utopian ideal into a dystopian reality.

What I'm more interested in, rather than a question/answer session, is an engaging conversation. :)

I'm going to the Zoom at 2:30pm, though, so will pop in and out. (I know you've posted in response to a couple of my posts and I do want to get back to those.)

Oh, also, looking into,
Socialism
Michael Newman
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Just a word of caution. Michael Newman says "the USSR is a clear example of (socialism)”. It’s not. I’ve explained that above. He also says the social democracy of the Nordic countries is an example of socialism, but those countries and their citizens frequently become somewhat outraged at the suggestion that theirs is socialism. They insist it is capitalism, and they do have mainly private ownership of businesses for private profit as we do. So it really a major stretch to call them “socialist”. So with that I would take Michael Newman with a significant grain of sodium chloride.

But no one has any clue on the possibility of communism coming about. I certainly have my own reservations but I understand that it’s all very wild speculation with zero basis in reality or even rational deduction.
 
Murrmurr said:
You don't need to? I'm not surprised you feel that way.
If we became socialist or what you're hoping for within your lifetime, I'll bet a million Nuthins you will want to be in charge.
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Well, most forums have rules about altering another posters quoted post. You added your own words to my quotes and your words don’t show up in that case when I quote your post as I did. See? They aren’t found here.

Secondly, what I DID quote here constitutes a personal attack, which IS against forum rules. NO ONE PERSON WOULD BE IN CHARGE OF A SOCIALIST COUNTRY AND I DON’T WISH THAT TO CHANGE!

You don’t seem to want to learn anything new. Most people I find on forums, and I’ve dealt with plenty, are fully convinced of the correctness of their deeply mistaken views and ideas. They resist change. They resist learning the truth about even what they’ve had no real education in but instead they cling to their indoctrination, fantasies, and brainwashing. So I look for the remaining few who are curious.
 
Senter said:
Well, most forums have rules about altering another posters quoted post. You added your own words to my quotes and your words don’t show up in that case when I quote your post as I did. See? They aren’t found here.

Secondly, what I DID quote here constitutes a personal attack, which IS against forum rules. NO ONE PERSON WOULD BE IN CHARGE OF A SOCIALIST COUNTRY AND I DON’T WISH THAT TO CHANGE!

You don’t seem to want to learn anything new. Most people I find on forums, and I’ve dealt with plenty, are fully convinced of the correctness of their deeply mistaken views and ideas. They resist change. They resist learning the truth about even what they’ve had no real education in but instead they cling to their indoctrination, fantasies, and brainwashing. So I look for the remaining few who are curious.
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You are quite full of yourself, aren't you? hugs.
 
Senter said:
Well, most forums have rules about altering another posters quoted post. You added your own words to my quotes and your words don’t show up in that case when I quote your post as I did. See? They aren’t found here.

Secondly, what I DID quote here constitutes a personal attack, which IS against forum rules. NO ONE PERSON WOULD BE IN CHARGE OF A SOCIALIST COUNTRY AND I DON’T WISH THAT TO CHANGE!

You don’t seem to want to learn anything new. Most people I find on forums, and I’ve dealt with plenty, are fully convinced of the correctness of their deeply mistaken views and ideas. They resist change. They resist learning the truth about even what they’ve had no real education in but instead they cling to their indoctrination, fantasies, and brainwashing. So .
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Actually, I felt personally attacked early in our discussion. So maybe I was being too defensive, and I apologize for making you feel that anything I've said was a personal affront. And sorry if I forgot some quotation marks or misquoted. I did use the word "paraphrased" once.

Please don't assume I'm resistant to change. Such assumptions are offensive. And I am truly insulted by the comments "no real education" and "I look for the remaining few who are curious."

I simply disagree with many of your assessments, that's all.
 
Murrmurr said:
Actually, I felt personally attacked early in our discussion. So maybe I was being too defensive, and I apologize for making you feel that anything I've said was a personal affront. And sorry if I forgot some quotation marks or misquoted. I did use the word "paraphrased" once.

Please don't assume I'm resistant to change. Such assumptions are offensive. And I am truly insulted by the comments "no real education" and "I look for the remaining few who are curious."

I simply disagree with many of your assessments, that's all.
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The problem was that your quote of my post included wording that you added, and that causes those comments to be excluded when I, in turn, quote your post. It also can add confusion as to what I said. So WHAT you said is not the issue in this case. And BTW I don’t find the word “paraphrased” in post 504.

Also, I thought it was clear that I was referring to “others” who lacked “real education” so I’m sorry you misunderstood. Regarding the “curious” comment, I was referencing actual, true, experience, and I meant what I said. It, again, was not aimed at you but rather it characterized the reality of life. And a few people are willing to consider looking at things from a new angle. It’s just a fact in my experience posting on about 20 forums in the last 30 years.

Oh, and your comment on disagreeing made me reflect on my own history and how much my views have changed as I’ve learned more and more about this subject. Life is change; how it differs from the rocks.
 
Senter said:
Just a word of caution. Michael Newman says "the USSR is a clear example of (socialism)”. It’s not. I’ve explained that above. He also says the social democracy of the Nordic countries is an example of socialism, but those countries and their citizens frequently become somewhat outraged at the suggestion that theirs is socialism. They insist it is capitalism, and they do have mainly private ownership of businesses for private profit as we do. So it really a major stretch to call them “socialist”. So with that I would take Michael Newman with a significant grain of sodium chloride.

But no one has any clue on the possibility of communism coming about. I certainly have my own reservations but I understand that it’s all very wild speculation with zero basis in reality or even rational deduction.
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So what he referred to (in the Blinks I've just read on his book) is the, "Scandinavian social democracy."

He compared and contrasted (remember that from lit. class?) the types of socialism adopted by Sweden and Cuba, (Cuban communism and Swedish social democracy), how they came about and how they are and are not working out currently.

I was particularly interested in Cuba's alignment with the USSR as a result of economic pressure from the US.

Can't remember more of the top of my head. LOL

Anyway, interesting stuff.


(Lemme catch up with your other posts {directed at me})
 
Medusa said:
At this time in our history, probably, yes, but I do think socialist ideals are worth reaching for.
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Is this what you mean when you say socialist ideals?

Socialism is a political philosophy and movement encompassing a range of economic and social systems, which are characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.
 
Senter said:
No no. I was referring to communist society.
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Yes, I think I misunderstood you there. My bad.
Although, communism is an off-shoot of socialism, I understand it is not what you were referring to. And tend to agree, on further reading, it is not, or should not be, the goal.
 
Knight said:
Is this what you mean when you say socialist ideals?

Socialism is a political philosophy and movement encompassing a range of economic and social systems, which are characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.
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Yeah, I misunderstood the original post there. My duh.
 
Senter said:
, I thought it was clear that I was referring to “others” who lacked “real education” so I’m sorry you misunderstood. Regarding the “curious” comment, I was referencing actual, true, experience, and I meant what I said. It, again, was not aimed at you but rather it characterized the reality of life. And a few people are willing to consider looking at things from a new angle. It’s just a fact in my experience posting on about 20 forums in the last 30 years.
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It read like a veiled condescending insult to me. And you haven't changed my mind about that, but it really doesn't matter. To me, I mean.

I'm pretty sure someone said earlier that political discussions aren't allowed on Senior Forums, and it can be argued, rightfully, that socialism is an ideal or a philosophy, even a construct. But I believe most people view socialism as a political ideal, political philosophy, or even a political construct. So it's possible this thread will be removed.

If so, I just wanna tell you that I rather enjoyed our discussion. Most of it. You haven't swayed my opinion one centimeter, but c'est la vie, right?
 
Senter said:
But how is it “idealism”? How are we not ready? How would it be different than it is today?
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Okay, what I'm saying here, what I've been saying, is that, as a whole, as a race, we are not ready to embrace socialism simply because historically speaking, where power has been available, it has been taken.

Cuba is not in great shape; I know they've done some things well, but they are, for example so desperate for medications, other countries smuggle them in for the citizens, which is not their only problem. (Especially after 1971.)

Sweden has done better, but not completely and at very high cost (economically) to it's people.

I'm not saying it can't be done; I'm saying it can't be done globally, right now.

Having said the above, this is shifting from a fun discussion to an argumentative "Right/Wrong" debate and I hate those because nobody learns anything and nobody wins.
 
Senter said:
Yes, with great opposition from capitalist countries led by the US. Today, Cuba is transitioning selected government operations to workers’ co-ops and the leadership declares that although the US embargo and other actions are doing serious harm to Cuba, they continue to “build socialism”. And from the reports of US journalists and Cuban residents and officials that I’ve read, it looks to be true as they still manage to provide what they can for their people.

There is information available to research this and I could provide some links if you like.
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I've just read a bit about this in Michael Newman's, Socialism.
 
Senter said:
If you want conversation from me, feel free to ask me whatever you like. Meanwhile I’ll post a few more posts here.

Want suggestions? Yesterday you mentioned that you might like to know more about communism and why it cannot be imposed by force. Or maybe a bit about what it would actually be?
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I have a question for you... What do you believe the role of socialism should be as more and more jobs are eliminated due to AI and automation?
 
SeniorBen said:
I have a question for you... What do you believe the role of socialism should be as more and more jobs are eliminated due to AI and automation?
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I know you didn't ask me, so apologies for jumping in (especially when I really don't know). But I was just reading an article here:
https://thenextweb.com/news/how-automation-could-turn-capitalism-into-socialism

And found this particularly interesting:

Meet the new boss: corporate-friendly socialism
That’s why the future of capitalism is socialism. It’s the government taxing businesses based on the amount of worker displacement their automation solutions cause, and then using that money to create a universal basic income for all citizens.
 
Medusa said:
Okay, what I'm saying here, what I've been saying, is that, as a whole, as a race, we are not ready to embrace socialism simply because historically speaking, where power has been available, it has been taken.
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Understood. And what I’m asking is “how, specifically, are we not ready to embrace socialism?” I’d like to know how you see this.

Medusa said:
Cuba is not in great shape; I know they've done some things well, but they are, for example so desperate for medications, other countries smuggle them in for the citizens, which is not their only problem. (Especially after 1971.)
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But you do know that Cuba is one of the top, best medical care providers on the planet, right? They have sent volunteering doctors to assist with disasters in other countries. You know this, right?

Medusa said:
Sweden has done better, but not completely and at very high cost (economically) to it's people.

I'm not saying it can't be done; I'm saying it can't be done globally, right now.
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What “can’t be done globally right now”? I hope you’re not referring to socialism because Sweden is not a socialist country and they specifically say so.

But regarding the per capita cost of medical care, I trust you know that the costs in the US are double any other country, right?
 

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