Elderly Rights - Do They Have Any?

TabbyAnn

TabbyAnn

Southern Indiana, U.S.A.
Location
Southern Indiana USA
A few years ago a senior friend visited her elderly aunt in the aunt’s home when the aunt suddenly had a stroke that paralyzed and stiffened half her body. The elderly aunt said she didn’t want to go to the hospital. She wanted to die and be with her deceased husband. But the senior sent her to the hospital anyway where the doctors recommended permanent nursing home care. The family put her in a nursing home and sold her house.

Now she complains about callous treatment from CNAs (certified nurse assistants) who don’t get her to the restroom in time and treat her roughly when trying to dress her, and other things. They recently broke her arm. Claimed she fell against he bed. Some other countries are more humane about elective death and provide comfortable procedures that are completely under the control of the person wanting to die. Do the elderly here have any control over what they choose for their own bodies?
 

NO.
Once my aunt was put in a home the courts and doctors just forgot about her. When her son turned 50, he married a 20 yr. old waitress with flock of kids (must have started early) to feed so they were all that mattered to him. According to the waitress they plotted for 5 years how to take everything from her but as long as my aunt had a roof over heat, something resembling food, and a bed there was "no" elder abuse.

My aunt was not stupid, worked in our then space program and lived on a mountain overlooking the U.C. Berkeley campus but made a huge mistake thinking that her only child cared about her welfare. Some of the workers clearly demonstrated their contempt for Americans and took it out on those who cannot defend themselves or be heard. I'm sure there are more positive stories out there but this was my experience.
 
Happy Heart said:
NO.
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That about sums it up. There are some options, like hospice, that will let some folks make the choice not to get aggressive treatment near the end of life, but that is about it. In most of the US anyway.

Never could understand why not... makes little sense to me.

Jack Kevorkian was right! He should have been treated as a great and wise man, instead he went to jail... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian
 

I'm guessing the both aunt's families had or were given power of attorney, or the aunts themselves signed off on selling their houses and going to nursing homes. Without family willing to take them in, or enough funds to rent apartmentz and prove they can hire sufficient help, they're probably stuck.

Once people are in the NH system it's very difficult to get back out of it. NHs have terrible reputations for exactly the problems being claimed. Staffing is typically inadequate, poorly trained, overwhelmed and have very high turnover. Caring for elderly, incontinent adults with eroding cognition is a very taxing job, emotionally and physically.

The aunts in both of the stories above were screwed because they apparently had nobody willing to take them in.

Very specific DNRs written in advance and filed with one's doctors could be helpful in preventing unwanted care.
 
StarSong said:
I'm guessing the both aunt's families had or were given power of attorney, or the aunts themselves signed off on selling their houses and going to nursing homes. Without family willing to take them in, or enough funds to rent apartmentz and prove they can hire sufficient help, they're probably stuck.

Once people are in the NH system it's very difficult to get back out of it. NHs have terrible reputations for exactly the problems being claimed. Staffing is typically inadequate, poorly trained, overwhelmed and have very high turnover. Caring for elderly, incontinent adults with eroding cognition is a very taxing job, emotionally and physically.

The aunts in both of the stories above were screwed because they apparently had nobody willing to take them in.

Very specific DNRs written in advance and filed with one's doctors could be helpful in preventing unwanted care.
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..you could be describing the typical elderly care in the UK ...
 
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StarSong said:
I'm guessing the both aunt's families had or were given power of attorney, or the aunts themselves signed off on selling their houses and going to nursing homes. Without family willing to take them in, or enough funds to rent apartmentz and prove they can hire sufficient help, they're probably stuck.

Once people are in the NH system it's very difficult to get back out of it. NHs have terrible reputations for exactly the problems being claimed. Staffing is typically inadequate, poorly trained, overwhelmed and have very high turnover. Caring for elderly, incontinent adults with eroding cognition is a very taxing job, emotionally and physically.

The aunts in both of the stories above were screwed because they apparently had nobody willing to take them in.

Very specific DNRs written in advance and filed with one's doctors could be helpful in preventing unwanted care.
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Please don't make false assumptions since you don't know that I was more than willing to help my aunt but her son and that waitress wanted control of her million dollar house. I lost my dad when I was four, she was the last connection I had to him so I wanted to do what I thought he would want me to do for his sister. FYI, the house could not be sold until such time as she passed away.
 
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StarSong said:
I'm guessing the both aunt's families had or were given power of attorney, or the aunts themselves signed off on selling their houses and going to nursing homes. Without family willing to take them in, or enough funds to rent apartmentz and prove they can hire sufficient help, they're probably stuck.
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In both cases above, the aunts owned their own homes and didn’t need anyone to “take them in”. They needed someone to listen to their wishes and help them plan their final days in their own home with whatever household help they needed.

Legal DNRs (Do Not Resusitate) vary from state to state and I haven’t seen one that prevents unwanted placement in a nursing home. They normally just restrict the use of electro-mechanical life support devices on people who can’t breathe on their own.
 
Happy Heart said:
Please don't make false assumptions since you don't know that I was more than willing to help my aunt but her son and that waitress wanted control of her million dollar house. I lost my dad when I was four, she was the last connection I had to him so I wanted to do what I thought he would want me to do for his sister. FYI, the house could not be sold until such time as she passed away.
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Her son and DIL needed either power of attorney or a court order to keep her in the nursing home. If she were cognitively intact and in charge of her own life, she could have proven sufficient care was in place at your home and checked herself out of the nursing home. Nursing homes aren't prisons.

That's how it works in California, at least.
 
TabbyAnn said:
In both cases above, the aunts owned their own homes and didn’t need anyone to “take them in”. They needed someone to listen to their wishes and help them plan their final days in their own home with whatever household help they needed.

Legal DNRs (Do Not Resusitate) vary from state to state and I haven’t seen one that prevents unwanted placement in a nursing home. They normally just restrict the use of electro-mechanical life support devices on people who can’t breathe on their own.
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True. But they can also state no feeding tubes, IVs, antibiotics or other interventions.
 
Someone with half their body paralyzed is extremely hard to take care of. A stroke that doesn't kill me is my biggest fear.

As far as the woman being allowed to stay in her home, that would be considered, neglect, abandonment, possibly even abuse. She would be considered a danger to herself. She is completely unable to take care of herself and if there is not a whole bunch of family willing to do very hard hands on care, a nursing home is where this poor soul would end up.
 
We are in our 70's and both of us had to deal with caring for one of our elderly parents prior to their death. If we live long enough, we all reach a point where we cannot go to the bathroom, eat, or take a bath/shower without help. In time diapers will be the only choice and someone has to clean us and change the diapers. Someone will have to prepare food and feed us etc. etc. It is just a matter of time...if you live long enough.

Many think they can hire someone to care for them and yes you can, even an RN maybe. But, in time the level of care they will have to provide will exceed their capabilities and they will need more help and more equipment. It all gets very expensive, very quickly. Much more than nursing homes. Now we are talking 24 hrs. 7 days a week. People you hire will only work 8 hours a day or 40 hours a week.

So, have a plan! We do not wish to have out kids in the role with us, ever! When one of us is gone or if we both get old and cannot take care of each other, we will be in a nursing home. Now I hate nursing homes more that anyone. As a kid I worked in a job where I went and got lab samples and x-rays on people in many different nursing homes. My mom and my father-in-law eventually had to go into nursing homes, so I know nursing homes. And most everyone I ever met that was in a nursing home hated it, even some understood why they had to be in one.

So, all I am saying is have a plan in writing in a Will. Who will execute your will a good friend
Regardless...it can happen to you!
 
Timewise 60+ said:
If we live long enough, we all reach a point where we cannot go to the bathroom, eat, or take a bath/shower without help. In time diapers will be the only choice and someone has to clean us and change the diapers. Someone will have to prepare food and feed us etc. etc. It is just a matter of time...if you live long enough.
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Yep, and I would sure like the option, legally, to end things when I want on my terms.

Right now I think I'd rather die than end up that way, but I know it may look different when I get there... no matter it should be my legal choice!
 
Alligatorob said:
Yep, and I would sure like the option, legally, to end things when I want on my terms.

Right now I think I'd rather die than end up that way, but I know it may look different when I get there... no matter it should be my legal choice!
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I hear you; I think most people consider that option. If you are a traditional Christian, that would not be an option. I have three kids, two are strong Christians, so they would have nightmares if we did something to ourselves. At this point, I plan on taking the cards I am dealt, but who knows what the future will bring. Right now, we live each day to the fullest and every day is a gift. I don't worry about the legality of it as once your gone, your gone! I guess if it were legal you could get a doctor to do it....so I see that benefit!
 
Timewise 60+ said:
If you are a traditional Christian, that would not be an option. I have three kids, two are strong Christians, so they would have nightmares if we did something to ourselves.
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I understand, we are all in different situations. I think it should be a right, our own choice only. Not a requirement...

I know some Christians think like your kids do. Where does that come from? Is there something in the bible specific enough to apply? Or is it simply someone's interpretation?
 
Happy Heart said:
Some of the workers clearly demonstrated their contempt for Americans and took it out on those who cannot defend themselves or be heard.
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I've heard of and experienced this myself. We've become a nation of tribes. The white American tribe wants to take in and take care of all other tribes. Then when white Americans need something all they get is resentment and ridicule. Dr. Phil is fond of saying "No good deed goes unpunished".
 
TabbyAnn said:
A few years ago a senior friend visited her elderly aunt in the aunt’s home when the aunt suddenly had a stroke that paralyzed and stiffened half her body. The elderly aunt said she didn’t want to go to the hospital. She wanted to die and be with her deceased husband. But the senior sent her to the hospital anyway where the doctors recommended permanent nursing home care. The family put her in a nursing home and sold her house. Now she complains about callous treatment from CNAs (certified nurse assistants) who don’t get her to the restroom in time and treat her roughly when trying to dress her, and other things. They recently broke her arm. Claimed she fell against he bed. Some other countries are more humane about elective death and provide comfortable procedures that are completely under the control of the person wanting to die. Do the elderly here have any control over what they choose for their own bodies?
Click to expand...
In California, it is my understanding that assisted suicide, physician assisted suicide or PAS is only available for people living independently at home or in a home/hospice setting. If the person is residing in a public facility such as an assisted living facility, a hospital or a nursing home, it is my understanding that the PAS option is not available to them.
 
sch404 said:
In California, it is my understanding that assisted suicide, physician assisted suicide or PAS is only available for people living independently at home or in a home/hospice setting. If the person is residing in a public facility such as an assisted living facility, a hospital or a nursing home, it is my understanding that the PAS option is not available to them.
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California's physician assisted deaths are legal only for terminal patients quite near the end of the road and whose cognitive functions are intact: https://legalbeagle.com/13720898-ca...aws-assisted-suicide-and-patients-rights.html

"Who Is Eligible for Euthanasia?

Patients must meet several criteria in order to qualify for physician-assisted death. First, only adults can qualify under the California euthanasia law. These individuals must have documented diagnoses of terminal illnesses. Two doctors must confirm that the patient should expect to live six months or fewer.

Additionally, patients must demonstrate that they are of sound mind and have adequate decision-making capabilities before the doctor can write the prescription. Finally, patients must administer the lethal dose of medication themselves. Patients can take it orally or through a feeding tube, so long as they administer it on their own."
 
Timewise 60+ said:
We are in our 70's and both of us had to deal with caring for one of our elderly parents prior to their death. If we live long enough, we all reach a point where we cannot go to the bathroom, eat, or take a bath/shower without help. In time diapers will be the only choice and someone has to clean us and change the diapers. Someone will have to prepare food and feed us etc. etc. It is just a matter of time...if you live long enough.

Many think they can hire someone to care for them and yes you can, even an RN maybe. But, in time the level of care they will have to provide will exceed their capabilities and they will need more help and more equipment. It all gets very expensive, very quickly. Much more than nursing homes. Now we are talking 24 hrs. 7 days a week. People you hire will only work 8 hours a day or 40 hours a week.
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Everything your wrote squares with my experience. DH & I each managed final care for one of our elderly parents (coincidentally both 92 when they passed). Fortunately, they were both in assisted living and not nursing homes when they quickly succumbed to final illnesses. Both AL facilities allowed us to bring in hospice care for those last couple of weeks of life.

Managing physical and/or mental infirmities that requiring round-the-clock full body care isn't pretty or pleasant for anyone involved. Nor is it cheap to hire help for protracted periods of time.
 
TabbyAnn said:
I don't recall Christ saying anything about end of life options for the elderly and infirm. I've read all of the Gospels but it's been awhile. Could you clue us in as to the Book and Verse where Christ mentions this? Thanks.
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Nothing I know of in the Bible speaks directly about suicide. Unless you accept that 'thou shall not kill'...would include yourself as in God's eye your value is the same as all lives...
 
We have rights if you can afford them. Money buys security and quality health care to ease our struggles as seniors. Where you lose rights and freedoms is when you have to let the government or doctors make the decisions for you, or even unscrupulous family members. I say family members because while money can buy us security when others take control of your assets greed can toss your best interest out the window.

I'm a firm believer in right to die choice, the tricky part with that is picking your expiration date. I do not want anyone to make my end of life decisions, I do not want to be in a nursing home or burden my children with my care. I wish there was a recognized end of life contract, once certain criteria was met life is over. I would sign and file it without hesitation. Maybe that sounds awful to many of you, but I wish I could guarantee the right to die with dignity.
 
C50 said:
We have rights if you can afford them. Money buys security and quality health care to ease our struggles as seniors. Where you lose rights and freedoms is when you have to let the government or doctors make the decisions for you, or even unscrupulous family members. I say family members because while money can buy us security when others take control of your assets greed can toss your best interest out the window.

I'm a firm believer in right to die choice, the tricky part with that is picking your expiration date. I do not want anyone to make my end of life decisions, I do not want to be in a nursing home or burden my children with my care. I wish there was a recognized end of life contract, once certain criteria was met life is over. I would sign and file it without hesitation. Maybe that sounds awful to many of you, but I wish I could guarantee the right to die with dignity.
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I agree with you, but in our country choosing your time to die is outlawed, anyway you do it. So we have to plan accordingly...
 
C50 said:
We have rights if you can afford them. Money buys security and quality health care to ease our struggles as seniors. Where you lose rights and freedoms is when you have to let the government or doctors make the decisions for you, or even unscrupulous family members. I say family members because while money can buy us security when others take control of your assets greed can toss your best interest out the window.

I'm a firm believer in right to die choice, the tricky part with that is picking your expiration date. I do not want anyone to make my end of life decisions, I do not want to be in a nursing home or burden my children with my care. I wish there was a recognized end of life contract, once certain criteria was met life is over. I would sign and file it without hesitation. Maybe that sounds awful to many of you, but I wish I could guarantee the right to die with dignity.
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Money doesn't always protect you from the misrepresentation of liars only interested in your assets.
Be careful what you ask for. A few years ago there were issues with insurance companies saying they spent enough money on the elderly so they would no longer pay for health care since they have the option of ending their own life. If I recall correctly, this came to the attention of Congress but I don't know what happened next.
 

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