US sending controversial cluster bombs to Ukraine risking escalation & collateral damage

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The US said it would be sending controversial cluster bombs to Ukraine which could lead to escalation in the war along with collateral damage. The bombs filled will little bombs or bomblets spread with many wind up being undetonated and/or killing civilians.

The use of the weapon is banned in over 100 countries and/or considered a war cime. Ukraine said it will only use in Ukraine to retake land.

https://www.usnews.com/news/nationa...roves-controversial-cluster-bombs-for-ukraine
 

Wigglestein said:
The US could have ended this whole war early on. We gave Ukraine just enough weapons to continue the war but not enough to end it.
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In hindsight that's probably true, but w mutually assured destruction always on the horizon it's hard to fault using the utmost caution.

Two factors that were hard to quantify beforehand was RU's inability to conduct the war and the surprising resistance offered by the Ukrainians.
 
There's a lot of hysteria about cluster bombs.


They are perfectly legitimate airfield denial weapons and also useful to prevent airborne lamb landings and as an anti armour weapon if you use armour piercing bomblets

Cluster bombs don't kill civilians, people kill civilians.

If you don't want children to be killed by cluster bombs don't drop them where children are likely to play with them.

I prepared them, loaded them and told other people how To do the same and my conscience is crystal clear. the bombs should not be banned but the illegitimate use of them should be no one is thinking of banning missiles because of the civilians being killed in lviv or Kiev

by banning legitimate weapon you are toeing one of your own hands behind your back
 
Timewise 60+ said:
Russia will make the USA pay a high price for giving Ukraine these bombs....
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Perhaps, but Russia is reported to already be using cluster bombs in Ukraine. If so, their use by Ukraine on its own soil would seem appropriate.

"Report: Russia uses cluster bombs 'extensively'
Richard Connor
08/25/2022August 25, 2022
A monitoring body says Russia has used cluster weapons on a wide basis in its invasion of Ukraine. Kyiv is also said to have used the weapons, but in a more limited way."
https://www.dw.com/en/russia-uses-cluster-bombs-extensively-in-ukraine-report-says/a-62927491

"Ukraine war: Evidence shows widespread use of cluster munitions in Kharkiv
12 June 2022"
"Russia has killed hundreds of civilians in the north-eastern Ukrainian city of Kharkiv using indiscriminate shelling and widely-banned cluster munitions, according to new research by Amnesty International."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61778433
 
Laurie said:
There's a lot of hysteria about cluster bombs.


They are perfectly legitimate airfield denial weapons and also useful to prevent airborne lamb landings and as an anti armour weapon if you use armour piercing bomblets
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Also very useful in clearing mine fields. And the Russian military indiscriminately buried hundreds of thousands of mines in open fields, forests, on farmland, and in and around cities; basically everywhere they went.
 
I don't believe it will escalate the war. Russia is using everything at it's disposal including cluster bombs already. I don't think our duty is to maintain a balance of powers to keep the war going. We should end this as quickly as possible. But that's just my opinion.
 
JustDave said:
We should end this as quickly as possible.
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Yep, a quick end is in most everyone's interest.

Unfortunately the only way I can see for the US to accomplish that is to end western support of Ukraine and let the Russians end it.

I am no military mind, but it appears to me that all of our weapons are just leading to a bloody stalemate...
 
Alligatorob said:
Yep, a quick end is in most everyone's interest.
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Alligatorob said:
Unfortunately the only way I can see for the US to accomplish that is to end western support of Ukraine and let the Russians end it.
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That's not the only way. Russia has shown us how incompetent and ill prepared for war they actually are. I would arm Ukraine to the teeth to end the war. To pull the carpet out from under the Ukraine is unacceptable to me, but that's just my opinion.
 
Alligatorob said:
Yep, a quick end is in most everyone's interest.

Unfortunately the only way I can see for the US to accomplish that is to end western support of Ukraine and let the Russians end it.

I am no military mind, but it appears to me that all of our weapons are just leading to a bloody stalemate...
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Until Russia runs out of heavy weapons. Ukraine hit several large Russian munitions storage sites located withing Ukraine, And one of the sites had just received a huge delivery. They also hit a railroad Russians used to deliver munitions and general military supplies.

And if I remember right, the UA did this on the 4th of July; hit all those sites in rapid succession, like their own shock-and-awe-type fireworks display. It was the week of the 4th, for sure.
 
Meanwhile, U.S. taxpayers are being whacked like a pinata to pay for a grand portion of this ...
Ukraine's Gold & Currency Reserves Swell To Highest Level In History, Central Bank Reveals

And the UK thumps it's chest because they know the U.S., which got drawn into two previous World Wars, will get drawn into this if it escalates.
Problem is, UK doesn't have the military where with all to go to war. Typical of Europe. Every country in NATO is willing to fight to the last American dollar and eventually the last American GI.

Fight Russia? Britain has just 40 tanks and around a dozen frigates and destroyers ready to go war - the lowest figures in modern times.
UK Talks Tough On War With Russia, While Admitting It's Dangerously Low On Tanks
 
Naturally said:
Meanwhile, U.S. taxpayers are being whacked like a pinata to pay for a grand portion of this ...
Ukraine's Gold & Currency Reserves Swell To Highest Level In History, Central Bank Reveals

And the UK thumps it's chest because they know the U.S., which got drawn into two previous World Wars, will get drawn into this if it escalates.
Problem is, UK doesn't have the military where with all to go to war. Typical of Europe. Every country in NATO is willing to fight to the last American dollar and eventually the last American GI.

Fight Russia? Britain has just 40 tanks and around a dozen frigates and destroyers ready to go war - the lowest figures in modern times.
UK Talks Tough On War With Russia, While Admitting It's Dangerously Low On Tanks
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The US will get its money back when Ukraine pushes the Russians out. I'm sure the US will get a piece of Ukraine's mineral and other natural resources, and maybe grain, too, and full access to their ports.

Plus, the US froze billions in Russian assets held in the US. They've promised cash assets to Ukraine, for rebuilding. Americans will have jobs there during rebuilding.

Ukraine is at least a few years away from victory at this pace. Maybe even 5 years. Speeding things up will be more profitable in the long run.

And it's not only a financial investment, we're investing in the security of the US and Europe.
 
Naturally said:
Meanwhile, U.S. taxpayers are being whacked like a pinata to pay for a grand portion of this ...
Ukraine's Gold & Currency Reserves Swell To Highest Level In History, Central Bank Reveals

And the UK thumps it's chest because they know the U.S., which got drawn into two previous World Wars, will get drawn into this if it escalates.
Problem is, UK doesn't have the military where with all to go to war. Typical of Europe. Every country in NATO is willing to fight to the last American dollar and eventually the last American GI.

Fight Russia? Britain has just 40 tanks and around a dozen frigates and destroyers ready to go war - the lowest figures in modern times.
UK Talks Tough On War With Russia, While Admitting It's Dangerously Low On Tanks
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This starts to read like a d1ck measuring contest. Let us know how many tanks the UK could get in readiness in the next 4 weeks. It’s more than the 40 you say the UK has. Always a good idea to read an article in full, and not just cherry pick.

Do you feel that the so far £4.6 billion of UK taxpayers money that’s gone into supporting Ukraine should go to US taxpayers instead. The UK being the second largest military donor to Ukraine, with a significancy smaller GDP etc compared to the US.

let us know how much the US taxpayer has given to Ukraine based on the Lend Lease Program signed by Joe Biden. Based on outdated military hardware that has been gathering dust in the US for the past several decades.

Be clear on the real point you are trying to make.
 
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Murrmurr said:
Plus, the US froze billions in Russian assets held in the US. They've promised cash assets to Ukraine, for rebuilding. Americans will have jobs there during rebuilding.
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Which from history, in reality means any money donated to Ukraine for its rebuilding will have to be spent on US products supplied by US companies, bolstering the US economy. Not that I see anything wrong in that.
 

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