Thoughts on Highwood Ceek Outfitters Raid

ElCastor said:
This is apparently a reason given. Could be, I suppose.

”The aim of this raid was to serve a warrant for financial records as the IRS accuses Van Hoose of under-reporting and failing to report millions of dollars of income.“
https://www.vizaca.com/armed-irs-agents-raid-gun-store/
Click to expand...
This reflects my first speculation after I looked up information about the forms in question. They contain personal information needed to purchase a gun, but this is not the only reason for the forms. The government is also tracking dealer sales. Hence the IRS has a vested interest in any records that may verify income.

The reason for the raid, whatever that may be, is the key information we need to understand before we get too excited. That the agents were "fully armed" is more of a distraction. I would think agents raiding any place would be fully armed. And that would include IRS agents seeking financial records.
 
First, this video is by a completely "unbiased" guy, who is surrounded by logos of gun manufactures. 🤔
Secondly, if I were going to serve a search warrant on a store full of guns, and there may be "resistance", I'm not walking in with just a piece of paper in my hand. Overwhelming force is prudent.
Third. What the reason for the federal search warrant, or any evidence of wrongdoing is not known. It may have been justified. And even if it wasn't, any charges or indictments will have to go through the legal system. We still have active, authoritative court system.
To me, this is a "OMG!!! They're taking my guns way" video.
 

I am not going to go into detail about this because it would take entirely to long to post it in depth so if you are interested you will have to do your own research. As of late on it's own the ATF has come up with rules that they are enforcing as if they were laws. If someone breaks these rules they can be charged with a felony. These may and probably are law abiding citizens that have not broken any law. This is a precursor to what I described in my original post. It seems to be expanding. I suspect there will be more of this type of thing in the future.

These chain of events have created concern for many people that are worried about their personal liberties being attacked. As I mentioned in my OP. I chose those specific videos because they presented the story better than anything else I could find. I am sure there is some bias in them but it does not change the basis of my concern in my original post. Thanks to all who have replied so far. I am very interested in everyone's opinion.
 
Last edited:
oldpop said:
As of late on it's own the ATF has come up with rules that they are enforcing as if they were laws. If someone breaks these rules they can be charged with a felony.
Click to expand...

Unless it is codified as a crime, it isn't. Rules are rules, not crimes.
 
ohioboy said:
Unless it is codified as a crime, it isn't. Rules are rules, not crimes.
Click to expand...
You may want to research that a little deeper. A young sailor had a felony arrest for breaking one of these rules. As far as I know he is setting in jail at the moment.
 
I do not believe so. The rules I am speaking of have not been submitted to congress. I have added a link below that describes what I am speaking of. It may be biased but it describes the issue enough for further research. . The ATF has been going back and forth on it's determinations for over a decade. These rule are a concern for me and I would hope for other Americans also.

When a government organization can make rules and enforce them as laws we are in big trouble as a nation. If this becomes common practice it is possible that a rule could be made to make us all have blonde hair and blue eyes and if not we could be charged with a felony or worse. At this point guns are at the center of this controversy. Anti gun or not this should be a concern to all of us. JMO

https://thefederalist.com/2023/01/1...llions-of-law-abiding-gun-owners-into-felons/
 
Last edited:
oldpop said:
As of late on it's own the ATF has come up with rules that they are enforcing as if they were laws.
Click to expand...
If true this would be concerning, and I did try to do some research. What I found were accusations against the ATF such as this one: https://www.hydesmith.senate.gov/us-senators-accuse-atf-making-enforcing-secret-regulations however I could not find specifics of people actually being arrested and convicted of a rule that wasn't a law. That would be hard to do, it would mean prosecutors and judges would have to buy into an unlawful process.

What it sound like is that some disagree with ATFs interpretation of laws, and are concerned that ATF isn't making the public aware of those interpretations. Government agencies interpret laws all the time, legally. There is often disagreement over interpretation, but in our system that is left to the courts, not agencies like ATF, if they get it wrong the courts will set them straight. I would agree that ATF, and all government agencies, have an obligation to make their interpretations of law as clear and public as possible. So if ATF is not that could be a problem.

The article you just cited, in #33, seems a case in point, ATF appears to have reinterpreted an existing law, and the courts are sorting out the legality of the new ATF interpretation, to quote from it:

The Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals held last week that the ATF’s attempt to redefine non-mechanical bump stocks as “machineguns” did not match Congress’s statutory definition. Additionally, the court determined that the ATF performed “an exercise of legislative power, in violation of the Constitution’s vesting of all such power in Congress. U.S. Const. art. I, § 1.”

If this ruling is upheld or stands then ATF was in the wrong and the courts will have corrected them. Our legal system at work.
oldpop said:
These chain of events have created concern for many people that are worried about their personal liberties being attacked.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately that is what our laws and their enforcement necessarily does, limit personal liberties for the greater good. A necessity for our civilization to work, and not always done well by our government. For example I recently tried to get a permit to drill a well and was denied, even though I have water rights I wanted to trade for the new well. No new water use, I just wanted to trade surface water for groundwater. Its something new, something I disagree with, and something that limits my liberties. Lots of other examples out there, most of which have nothing to do with guns.
 

Alligatorob said:
that is what our laws and their enforcement necessarily does, limit personal liberties for the greater good. A necessity for our civilization to work, and not always done well by our government. For example I recently tried to get a permit to drill a well and was denied, even though I have water rights I wanted to trade for the new well. No new water use, I just wanted to trade surface water for groundwater. Its something new, something I disagree with, and something that limits my liberties. Lots of other examples out there, most of which have nothing to do with guns.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately their enforcement has gotten completely out of hand. We have guidelines, rules, laws for most situations as defined by the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights and they cover a lot of ground. It seems that both are constantly being attacked for nefarious reasons. Nothing new really but in these time it seems to be worse than ever. I as an American citizen have the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. These rights are being systematically chipped away piece by piece and it concerns me tremendously.

I am old and will not be walking the planet in a few years but my grandchildren will. They are my main concern. As mentioned the things we have been discussing here in this post slip by without notice. It seems to me that our news is censored and slanted towards some type of agenda. No I am not a conspiracy theorist. It just seems obvious to me. Conversation on these types of issue are important. I appreciate all the info presented here.
 
Last edited:
Once again I must stress that the mention of firearms/guns is not the point of this post. The point is the miscarriage of justice being perpetrated against the previously mentioned sailor involved. As requested a link to an update of the charges and trial of Petty Officer 1st Class Patrick Tate Adamiak. Personally I am flabbergasted by the obvious overreach of the ATF. If this verdict and sentence is allowed to fly It is a precursor of things to come. As I mentioned before If you want more specifics please research the subject in greater detail. I used the link below for it's simplicity and ease of use and not to impel a pro gun agenda.

 
How to properly destroy firearms

Unfortunately Adamiak placed too much trust in sellers of "gun parts" that were technically still machine guns and grenade launchers. He did not handle his business in a professional manner and apparently wasn't knowledgeable about what he was selling and owned. He used commonly held "beliefs" that are not true and proved to be illegal. However, I think the sentence is harsh and unjustified and he's being made an example of, but selling "gun parts" that could be restored into fully operational machine guns could not be ignored.
 
oldpop said:
Once again I must stress that the mention of firearms/guns is not the point of this post. The point is the miscarriage of justice being perpetrated against the previously mentioned sailor involved. As requested a link to an update of the charges and trial of Petty Officer 1st Class Patrick Tate Adamiak. Personally I am flabbergasted by the obvious overreach of the ATF. If this verdict and sentence is allowed to fly It is a precursor of things to come. As I mentioned before If you want more specifics please research the subject in greater detail. I used the link below for it's simplicity and ease of use and not to impel a pro gun agenda.

Click to expand...
And your legal reasoning of how he was "wrongfully convicted"?
 
ohioboy said:
And your legal reasoning of how he was "wrongfully convicted"?
Click to expand...
The video is pretty much self explanatory. Legal reasoning? I know a little about a lot and a lot about a little but if you are asking for my opinion and I use the the video as a basis for that opinion I would have to say it seems he was wrongly charged and convicted on all charges because the evidence shows he broke no laws. The ATF admittedly doctored the evidence. That is the point of this post. This kind of behavior by the alphabet crusaders has become the norm. Having the court records on the trial would shed more light but as of yet I have not found any on line.
 
Last edited:
Well, if the ATF admitted to falsifying the evidence, then it is up to his defense team to argue. Now it seems the Appeals process is his Due Process right.
 
ohioboy said:
And your legal reasoning of how he was "wrongfully convicted"?
Click to expand...
I think oldpop has 2 points.

#1 The ATF changed what they considered a destroyed firearm by rule, not by any law passed by congress. The promulgation of regulation by all federal agencies is under attack, w the EPA being a focus of those attacks.

#2 The ATF repaired the grenade launchers to a state that could fire a training round which is a rifle cartridge (7.62mm x 39mm) in an effort to prove they weren't destroyed.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top