Social and cultural upheaval

People now have more choices. One of the parents can choose to stay home until the kids are in school while one works. It’s becoming more common for the bread winner to be the woman. Both parents can choose to work and there’s daycare.

Yes some families have no choice but to have 2 parents working but many don’t if they live within their means like past generations did. People can also choose to move to a LCOL if they are struggling.
 

chic said:
Does it ever occur to anyone that Feminism was a scam to conceal the fact that one income could no longer fund the American dream all the while putting the other half of the population (women) to work and paying taxes, in exchange for the meaningless symbol of being able to burn a bra? Then the government has more control over the kids' educations because neither parent has time and by the time a kid reaches puberty they don't even know what sex they are. This is a fact of life now.

I still don't get enough credit for all I refrain from saying.
:oops:
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Well, it seems to me that in 2023, people tend to write off everything they don't agree with as either a "scam" or a "Conspiracy" of some kind. I think it's at a point that this automatic reaction is, in fact, a conspiracy to undermine education and a belief in just about anything, especially institutions. :D

I'm not sure how feminism could be a "scam". Women are people. Women wanted parity with men. We've all grown up in times when women were second class citizens. Without feminism and the fight for women's right, women would still be unable to vote (as it was, they had to wait until 1920 in the US. )

I really don't know what policies could have been enacted that would have meant you didn't need two people working to support a household. But let's face it, any time a social program is put in place to do anything, a percentage of people raise their arms and scream "Commie!"

Feminism was recognized as a movement to ensure equal standing under the law for both sexes. What part of that is a problem, or a scam? That takes in many different aspects. Burning the bra was simply a symbol of their new found freedoms.

As I have stated elsewhere, more than once, I'm conflicted on this issue. On the one hand, I 100% support women in total equality. On the other, I have not always lived up to the ideal myself. In fact, my ideal woman is something of a homebody, in a nice dress or skirt. And heels don't hurt. Which is, of course, sexist. I confess my sins, and certainly would never demand it, I do however much prefer it.

It's difficult for men to fully appreciate, I think, we've never had to deal with the issue for our own gender.
 
VaughanJB said:
Well, it seems to me that in 2023, people tend to write off everything they don't agree with as either a "scam" or a "Conspiracy" of some kind. I think it's at a point that this automatic reaction is, in fact, a conspiracy to undermine education and a belief in just about anything, especially institutions. :D

I'm not sure how feminism could be a "scam". Women are people. Women wanted parity with men. We've all grown up in times when women were second class citizens. Without feminism and the fight for women's right, women would still be unable to vote (as it was, they had to wait until 1920 in the US. )

I really don't know what policies could have been enacted that would have meant you didn't need two people working to support a household. But let's face it, any time a social program is put in place to do anything, a percentage of people raise their arms and scream "Commie!"

Feminism was recognized as a movement to ensure equal standing under the law for both sexes. What part of that is a problem, or a scam? That takes in many different aspects. Burning the bra was simply a symbol of their new found freedoms.

As I have stated elsewhere, more than once, I'm conflicted on this issue. On the one hand, I 100% support women in total equality. On the other, I have not always lived up to the ideal myself. In fact, my ideal woman is something of a homebody, in a nice dress or skirt. And heels don't hurt. Which is, of course, sexist. I confess my sins, and certainly would never demand it, I do however much prefer it.

It's difficult for men to fully appreciate, I think, we've never had to deal with the issue for our own gender.
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:) 'The Pill' began with ten times the necessary dose (a pharmacist told me) and, even when corrected, was a powerful drug that twenty years later just about did me in. It was billed to empower women. It's actual purpose was to control the birth rate which should have been beyond the powers of our 'leaders' (who should be representatives).
Nobody force-fed me the pill, and I don't assert my opinions as true, I'm just a grunt. But skeptical of the powers that be? You bet! I can give you a thousand reasons. And I listen carefully to reasonable 'Conspiracy Theories'.
**The earth may not be flat, but it ain't round either.**
 
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gruntlabor said:
:) 'The Pill' began with ten times the necessary dose (a pharmacist told me) and, even when corrected, is a powerful drug that 25 years later just about did me in. It was billed to empower women. It's actual purpose was to control the birth rate which should have been beyond the powers of our 'leaders' (who should be representatives).
Nobody force-fed me the pill, and I don't assert my opinions as true, I'm just a grunt. But skeptical of the powers that be? You bet! I can give you a thousand reasons. And I listen carefully to reasonable 'Conspiracy Theories'.
**The earth may not be flat, but it ain't round either.**
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The earth is an oblate spheroid.

Are you talking the birth control pill? Or a different "the pill"?
 
@chic
I must publicly apologize to you. You are a fabulous, artistic, quirky and intelligent woman. I have been under a lot of pressure and I took it out on you. I'm so sorry and I hope you can forgive me. That was no way to talk to you as I greatly admire you on many levels. You are a fine person.
 
VaughanJB said:
The earth is an oblate spheroid.

Are you talking the birth control pill? Or a different "the pill"?
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gruntlabor said:
:) 'The Pill' began with ten times the necessary dose (a pharmacist told me) and, even when corrected, was a powerful drug that twenty years later just about did me in. It was billed to empower women. It's actual purpose was to control the birth rate which should have been beyond the powers of our 'leaders' (who should be representatives).
Nobody force-fed me the pill, and I don't assert my opinions as true, I'm just a grunt. But skeptical of the powers that be? You bet! I can give you a thousand reasons. And I listen carefully to reasonable 'Conspiracy Theories'.
**The earth may not be flat, but it ain't round either.**
Click to expand...

I'm not understanding your comment on the pill. The purpose of a birth control pill is to prevent pregnancy. It does it by preventing the ovary releasing an egg. Why do you say it "should have been beyond the powers of our 'leaders'"? You weren't forced into taking it, it's completely optional, what does that have to do with "leaders"? Let alone some conspiracy. Sorry, I'm just trying to understand your comment.

Skepticism is fine, and there's a lot of it about. What I see less commonly are people who are skeptical of everything. Instead it's usually based on a political divide, or an establishment divide along the same lines.

I think millions, if not billions, of women have used it to achieve their goal, and successfully. Seems like it empowered women just fine. If I'm wrong, would be interested to know why you think so.
 
VaughanJB said:
Why do you say it "should have been beyond the powers of our 'leaders'"?
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I believe that by engaging in population control they exceeded the powers given them by the constitution, and also because the drug was unsafe for public use.

VaughanJB said:
you weren't forced into taking it
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No, I wasn't. I was 25 years old, had had four babies in five years, dumb as a post, trusted our government completely. The pill felt like a Godsend. Like a life saver.

VaughanJB said:
what does that have to do with "leaders"? Let alone some conspiracy.
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Margaret Sanger and her 'women's-lib' followers were dishonest. They were not about womens' lib. They were about birth control, they did unspeakable things in the name of womens' lib, as wholesale late-term abortions. Murder when carried out after birth. Our government went along.
VaughanJB said:
If I'm wrong would be interested to know why you think so.
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:) You are not wrong, at all, sir, we just have a difference of opinion.
 
gruntlabor said:
I believe that by engaging in population control they exceeded the powers given them by the constitution, and also because the drug was unsafe for public use.
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I'm sorry, I might be having a bad day, but I'm still not getting it. How did they engage in population control that "exceeded their powers" when the government didn't force, or make, the taking of them mandatory? The only people who took the pill did so willingly, and with a choice to opt out. What, exactly, did the "leaders" do that makes you think they had much say in any of it?

gruntlabor said:
Margaret Sanger and her 'women's-lib' followers were dishonest. They were not about womens' lib. They were about birth control, they did unspeakable things in the name of womens' lib, as wholesale late-term abortions. Murder when carried out after birth. Our government went along.
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Do you say this because anything with a pro-choice stance is in your view wrong? There was a whole lot more about Women's liberation than abortion policy. In the case of Sanger, she watched her mother have 11 children, and 7 miscarriages. Her mother wasted away from it all, and died at 50. As a reaction to this life experience, she campaigned for contraception to be introduced (a statute at the time banned contraception). She stood up for what she thought was right, and has helped millions upon millions of women take better control of their lives. She believed women, as individuals, had the right to decide for themselves whether they had a child or not. I guess you disagree with that? How was she dishonest?

EDIT: I sincerely haven't asked you these questions (and those in the last post) because we have a disagreement about it. I just didn't understand why you believed as you do. I thought the best way to find out was to ask. :)
 
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VaughanJB said:
How did they engage in population control that "exceeded their powers"
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By legalizing an unsafe drug.

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is responsible for protecting the public health by assuring the safety, efficacy, and security of human and veterinary drugs, biological products, medical devices, our nation's food supply, cosmetics, and products that emit radiation. --Food and Drug Administration (FDA) | USAGov

VaughanJB said:
Do you say this because anything with a pro-choice stance is in your view wrong?
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No, I do not believe congress is qualified to answer so deep a philosophical question as abortion. They should leave the question alone. Which would empower the mother to make the decision? Or not? I don't know. As long as government stays out of it.

VaughanJB said:
How was she dishonest?
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Indeed she did NOT respect the woman's right to choose. Under the pretext of medical care the patient was admitted to the clinic and counseled with a clear bias toward an abortion. Sanger's good works should have ended with her own body.
 
@Pepper Jim Crow was the first thing that came to my mind after reading the OP's question. I looked at his post history and he isn't from the South. I don't think a lot of people who didn't live down here at the time realize how horrible it was.
 
Been busy writng lately and largely historical fiction. Which caused me to do a ton of research on World War I. I'd say it's been going downhill ever since World War I, which is depressing to realize and fills one with a mankind is doomed. Carlin hit the nail on the head so many times.
 
chic said:
Does it ever occur to anyone that Feminism was a scam to conceal the fact that one income could no longer fund the American dream all the while putting the other half of the population (women) to work and paying taxes, in exchange for the meaningless symbol of being able to burn a bra? Then the government has more control over the kids' educations because neither parent has time and by the time a kid reaches puberty they don't even know what sex they are. This is a fact of life now.

I still don't get enough credit for all I refrain from saying.
:oops:
Click to expand...
The problem with that ideal is that it made women slaves to men and both them and their children vulnerable to abuse thereby encouraging men to be abusive because there was constant pressure on men to control the little woman so if he couldn't convince her with words he used his fists or just had her declared insane and shipped her off to the asylum.

In my situation where I divorced an abusive husband then took off to another state with my daughter - who became mine and not ours as far as I'm concerned the second he put his perverted hands on her - well, I guess it's preferrable we starve with that idiot unable to hold a job like I was getting fired for drinking on the job and well, I guess I'd have to look the other way while he r*ped my daughter. I don't think so! Eff that system.

I will readily admit to problems with feminism and how it's been exploited by politicians in the exact manner you say but the alternative is even worse. Frankly, I think only weak men want that kind of control over women.
 
VaughanJB said:
I'm sorry, I might be having a bad day, but I'm still not getting it. How did they engage in population control that "exceeded their powers" when the government didn't force, or make, the taking of them mandatory? The only people who took the pill did so willingly, and with a choice to opt out. What, exactly, did the "leaders" do that makes you think they had much say in any of it?



Do you say this because anything with a pro-choice stance is in your view wrong? There was a whole lot more about Women's liberation than abortion policy. In the case of Sanger, she watched her mother have 11 children, and 7 miscarriages. Her mother wasted away from it all, and died at 50. As a reaction to this life experience, she campaigned for contraception to be introduced (a statute at the time banned contraception). She stood up for what she thought was right, and has helped millions upon millions of women take better control of their lives. She believed women, as individuals, had the right to decide for themselves whether they had a child or not. I guess you disagree with that? How was she dishonest?

EDIT: I sincerely haven't asked you these questions (and those in the last post) because we have a disagreement about it. I just didn't understand why you believed as you do. I thought the best way to find out was to ask. :)
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Margaret Sanger was an eugenicist and her motive was actually to decrease the black race. So stated in her own writings. I used to believe she was a hero - then I read her writings. I suggest you do so. She wanted this earth rid of non-whites, especially blacks.
 
The birth control pill gave women reproductive freedom for the first time. Like any new drug time showed what needed to be changed with it. Look at cemetery records for earlier years and see how many women died young leaving behind tons of kids because of constantly having babies.

The men quickly remarried because there wasn’t daycare and he needed someone to care for them while he worked. Many times those kids were abused by their stepmom.

Abortion was another huge leap forward as it continued to give women choices. Previously if you were raped you suffered the consequences of having a baby. The man didn’t suffer. You were a victim twice. Kids are raped and become pregnant. Pregnancy is not only a risk to physical health but also mental health. Unfortunately we are going backwards with the reversal of Roe v Wade.
 
Having to have my husband approve my application for a credit card and hearing my father threaten my mother with being "committed" because she dared to disagree with him I would have to say, feminism saved us.

The reversal of Roe v Wade is a step backward Teacher Terry, I agree.
 
Teacher Terry said:
Abortion was another huge leap forward as it continued to give women choices
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It doesn't give the unborn a choice. Murder is wrong. Plain and simple and an unborn fetus is a growing human no matter how ardently it is denied.

Yes, it's tragic for rape victims but I daresay the rape itself causes mental health issues that are sometimes blamed on having to carry rapist's baby and sometimes having to carry baby adds to those but that alone does not justify infanticide. It ain't the baby's fault and she can give the baby up for adoption.

SCOTUS was chicken sh*t returning it to the States and shame on them for being such cowards. It should not be up to any state to decide if an innocent baby has the right to live or die.

Mental health services should be more available to victims of rape and incest but they should not be allowed to murder the baby. I also daresay there are times when guilt over having murdered their child also exacerbates their mental health issues and trauma.
 
Blaze Duskdreamer said:
The problem with that ideal is that it made women slaves to men and both them and their children vulnerable to abuse thereby encouraging men to be abusive because there was constant pressure on men to control the little woman so if he couldn't convince her with words he used his fists or just had her declared insane and shipped her off to the asylum.

In my situation where I divorced an abusive husband then took off to another state with my daughter - who became mine and not ours as far as I'm concerned the second he put his perverted hands on her - well, I guess it's preferrable we starve with that idiot unable to hold a job like I was getting fired for drinking on the job and well, I guess I'd have to look the other way while he r*ped my daughter. I don't think so! Eff that system.
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A very open & spunky bit of testimony, Blaze. My wife is not an overt feminist, though she's smart, strong and capable of being very independent. She knows why the movement developed. But I have talked with women who share the same sort of story as yours & can speak from experience.
 
DebraMae said:
Having to have my husband approve my application for a credit card and hearing my father threaten my mother with being "committed" because she dared to disagree with him
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Yes, life is very hard, the bumps keep coming. Nature was taking its course in my life with birth after birth, but I can respect nature. and hopefully rise to meet it.
Being controlled from afar by institutions and politicians for nefarious purposes, I do not respect.
 
Blaze Duskdreamer said:
It doesn't give the unborn a choice. Murder is wrong. Plain and simple and an unborn fetus is a growing human no matter how ardently it is denied.

Yes, it's tragic for rape victims but I daresay the rape itself causes mental health issues that are sometimes blamed on having to carry rapist's baby and sometimes having to carry baby adds to those but that alone does not justify infanticide. It ain't the baby's fault and she can give the baby up for adoption.

SCOTUS was chicken sh*t returning it to the States and shame on them for being such cowards. It should not be up to any state to decide if an innocent baby has the right to live or die.

Mental health services should be more available to victims of rape and incest but they should not be allowed to murder the baby. I also daresay there are times when guilt over having murdered their child also exacerbates their mental health issues and trauma.
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Abortion is a medical decision between a woman and her doctor period end of discussion. Making it illegal is another way for men to control women. No one has the right to tell a woman what she has to do with her body.
 

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