Preparing For A Job A Trade Or A Career

[Lon]

Given the number of unemployed and underemployed causes me to wonder why so many, particularly minorities never sought out educating them selves or getting training in jobs that would almost surely quarantee their employment in good paying jobs. Of course knowing how to read and write is helpful as well. I am not speaking of jobs or careers that require a college degree, but jobs that require apprenticeship. Bringing back Trade Schools that were once very common in the U.S. as part of the Public School System might help. My own high s chool that I graduated from in 1952 was one of these. You could take a College Preparatory Program or a Trade Program like refrigeration, auto mechanics, carpentry etc. Both Programs required a certain number of credits in English & Math to graduate and become a HIGH SCHOOLGRADUATE.

I went the College Prep Route and had to take three years of Language three years of English, three years of math. three years of science. Until our citizens become better educated overall, there will always be poor people and unemployed living & feeding at the Federal Trough.

 

[Shirley]

I totally agree. A plumber, electrician, mechanic, barber and cosmetologist can almost always find work.

 

[QuickSilver]

You two DO understand that any sort of training costs money.. No training is free.. When the President wanted to give two years of college or Trade school free of charge heads exploded. So.. if you have no money how do you go to school? Oh... yeah... student loans... that you may never be able to pay back. There is now over a Trillion dollars in outstanding student loans.. much of it in default because the promised jobs are just not there.. Many people will carry student loan debt until their death bed.

Then of course there is the possibility of being hired as an apprentice in a trade union.. BUT... unions are being systematically destroyed in order to give Corporations more profits by allowing lower wages with less benefits.... in order for them to hire more people... WHICH they are not doing..

 

[Lon]

You two DO understand that any sort of training costs money.. No training is free.. When the President wanted to give two years of college or Trade school free of charge heads exploded. So.. if you have no money how do you go to school? Oh... yeah... student loans... that you may never be able to pay back. There is now over a Trillion dollars in outstanding student loans.. much of it in default because the promised jobs are just not there.. Many people will carry student loan debt until their death bed.

Trade schools as I mentioned in a current post was at one time incorporated into the Public Schools in many states like California for one. This is a much better alternative than Obama's federal giveaway.

 

[QuickSilver]

Trade schools as I mentioned in a current post was at one time incorporated into the Public Schools in many states like California for one. This is a much better alternative than Obama's federal giveaway.

Seems to me that CUTs to education have done away with most of that.. There used to be a high schools that were geared toward training just for trades.. all gone... at least in this area.. SO are you saying the government should spend the money to open more trade schools or to add trade programs to existing public schools? Sounds fine to me. Do you think that legislation would pass?

 

[Lon]

Seems to me that CUTs to education have done away with most of that.. There used to be a high schools that were geared toward training just for trades.. all gone... at least in this area.. SO are you saying the government should spend the money to open more trade schools or to add trade programs to existing public schools? Sounds fine to me. Do you think that legislation would pass?

My own high s chool that I graduated from in 1952 was one of these. You could take a College Preparatory Program or a Trade Program like refrigeration, auto mechanics, carpentry etc. Both Programs required a certain number of credits in English & Math to graduate and become a HIGH SCHOOLGRADUATE.

I went the College Prep Route and had to take three years of Language three years of English, three years of math. three years of science. Until our citizens become better educated overall, there will always be poor people and unemployed living & feeding at the Federal Trough.
I much prefer this on the state level funded by property & other taxes.

 

[imp]

In Germany, in the '50s and '60s, all high school students were required to embrace and adhere to, a schedule of classes and part-time work in a trade or career of their own choice. Thus, when my future wife came to America from there at age 16, she already possessed an education in Cosmetology, as well as a German license to practice! German-born hairdressers were (are?) in high demand.

Do not know if that educational process there is still in effect. imp

 

[Lon]

Seems to me that CUTs to education have done away with most of that.. There used to be a high schools that were geared toward training just for trades.. all gone... at least in this area.. SO are you saying the government should spend the money to open more trade schools or to add trade programs to existing public schools? Sounds fine to me. Do you think that legislation would pass?

I don't want the federal government involved because I don't think they are capable of doing it any more efficiently or cost effective than they have any other government programs.

 

[WhatInThe]

You two DO understand that any sort of training costs money.. No training is free.. When the President wanted to give two years of college or Trade school free of charge heads exploded. So.. if you have no money how do you go to school? Oh... yeah... student loans... that you may never be able to pay back. There is now over a Trillion dollars in outstanding student loans.. much of it in default because the promised jobs are just not there.. Many people will carry student loan debt until their death bed.

Then of course there is the possibility of being hired as an apprentice in a trade union.. BUT... unions are being systematically destroyed in order to give Corporations more profits by allowing lower wages with less benefits.... in order for them to hire more people... WHICH they are not doing..

Many high schools have vocational programs. It might not get somebody licensed or teach them everything but it will make much easier to become a helper or apprentice for a contractor once graduated. Many states have a time requirement on licensing anyway with some trades wanting 1500-4000 hours experience or a 5 year apprenticeship.

Many community colleges offer many trades courses and certifications at a fraction of the cost of many trade/technical schools.

The big thing with additional training for unemployed especially is just get them in the door somewhere. Some skill positions require some training and certification but not degrees.

But all comes back to being well rounded including some math and science. A high school graduate should've had enough of a variety that just entering a program should not be an ordeal. They don't have to be an expert or excel in a topic but had enough exposure so that when it does come time learn and study it they are not lost from day one. Too many schools report having to have students take remedial course before taking courses which waste time and money.

One of the biggest things though is for everyone to learn the difference between "a" job and "a" career. And having one or the other does not make a difference when it comes to daily survival and supporting one's self.

 

[QuickSilver]

My own high s chool that I graduated from in 1952 was one of these. You could take a College Preparatory Program or a Trade Program like refrigeration, auto mechanics, carpentry etc. Both Programs required a certain number of credits in English & Math to graduate and become a HIGH SCHOOLGRADUATE.

I went the College Prep Route and had to take three years of Language three years of English, three years of math. three years of science. Until our citizens become better educated overall, there will always be poor people and unemployed living & feeding at the Federal Trough.
I much prefer this on the state level funded by property & other taxes.

But because there is wealth inequality between states, it seems to me that to be fair to all American citizens, the federal government has to be involved. People living in poor states will not have the same opportunities than those in richer states... when in fact it's the people in poor states that probably need the availability of trade education even more. The Federal government SHOULD play the role of equalizing the playing field by collecting taxes and making sure every American gets the same advantages that poor states cannot provide.. This is the reason FOR a Federal government.. otherwise we would simply be a collection of states.. not the UNITED States.

 

[ronaldj]

get up go to work and pay for what you need and want......it can be done ...I see it every day and have all my life and I see some who what it all handed to them and they make the news while thousands get up get to work and pay for what they need and want.....

 

[QuickSilver]

In Germany, in the '50s and '60s, all high school students were required to embrace and adhere to, a schedule of classes and part-time work in a trade or career of their own choice. Thus, when my future wife came to America from there at age 16, she already possessed an education in Cosmetology, as well as a German license to practice! German-born hairdressers were (are?) in high demand.

Do not know if that educational process there is still in effect. imp

From what I understand Germany offers free college educations as well as free trade educations.

 

[Grumpy Ol' Man]

Today's "education" culture.....

1.) There has been a concentrated effort on the part of the Republican Party to cut funding for public schools. Here in Kansas, the courts have intervened. Our Governor would much rather see everyone either home-schooled or attend parochial schools and have public schools close. Those cuts in funding have virtually eliminated trade/craft focused programs in public schools.

2.) We're about two generations into our secondary school teachers telling our children they will never amount to anything if they don't go to college. Trades/crafts have been looked on as "the unmentionables". Our kids have been taught that they can spend time on computers, go to college, and be immediately hired to a career where they sit in a cubicle and never get hands dirty. That culture in our education system has mitigated the interest in trades/crafts.

3.) Our social programs have made it more attractive to some to live off the "system" than to have a career. We have generational welfare families where they are not interested in finding or holding jobs. When someone can sit at home... or hang out with his druggie buddies on the street corner... and make more than someone working 40 hours/week, where's the incentive??

4.) The telling our children that they can be cubicle inhabitants and never get dirty has seen a migration of Mexican Americans taking over the construction trades. Living in and around the engineering/construction industry for over 40 years, it is becoming more and more out of the ordinary to find crews that are not Spanish speaking. They work hard. They make good money. Our own children don't want that work or won't do that work.

5.) We grew up with Lincoln Logs, Erector Sets, chemistry sets, etc. We grew up changing flat tires, changing spark plugs, overhauling carb, etc. Today, our vehicles are virtually maintenance free. How many folks of this generation have every changed a flat tire?? How many folks of this generation could change a kitchen faucet or replace a bathroom toilet? All are very simple tasks, but they haven't grown up being taught to do manual tasks. Our son is assigned to one of the most elite of Special Ops units in the military. They needed a lawnmower for a small backyard at their quarters on post. If I had sent them a gas-powered mower, he wouldn't have known how to mix gas in a 2-cycle or check oil in a 4-cycle, etc. So, I sent him an electric mower and a long extension cord. He loves it because they only need to plug it in. Sheesh!!!!

Would the GOP go along with funding trade school/vocational school educations, we could turn much of this around. Instead, we are more concerned with continuing to spend our time trying to repeal the ACA... disenfranchise voters... do the bidding of the billionaires who have made it possible to get elected to office.

 

[applecruncher]

Given the number of unemployed and underemployed causes me to wonder why so many, particularly minorities never sought out educating them selves or getting training in jobs that would almost surely quarantee their employment in good paying jobs. Of course knowing how to read and write is helpful as well. I am not speaking of jobs or careers that require a college degree, but jobs that require apprenticeship. Bringing back Trade Schools that were once very common in the U.S. as part of the Public School System might help. My own high s chool that I graduated from in 1952 was one of these. You could take a College Preparatory Program or a Trade Program like refrigeration, auto mechanics, carpentry etc. Both Programs required a certain number of credits in English & Math to graduate and become a HIGH SCHOOLGRADUATE.

I went the College Prep Route and had to take three years of Language three years of English, three years of math. three years of science. Until our citizens become better educated overall, there will always be poor people and unemployed living & feeding at the Federal Trough.

Lon. re: the bolded I’m not understanding why you say “particularly minorities”.

Actually, a LOT of minorities have always sought and received such training.

If (and notice I said “if”) you are going to say because minorities go on welfare, well…….most of the people on welfare are white.

So, please explain.

 

[WhatInThe]

Today's "education" culture.....

1.) There has been a concentrated effort on the part of the Republican Party to cut funding for public schools. Here in Kansas, the courts have intervened. Our Governor would much rather see everyone either home-schooled or attend parochial schools and have public schools close. Those cuts in funding have virtually eliminated trade/craft focused programs in public schools.

2.) We're about two generations into our secondary school teachers telling our children they will never amount to anything if they don't go to college. Trades/crafts have been looked on as "the unmentionables". Our kids have been taught that they can spend time on computers, go to college, and be immediately hired to a career where they sit in a cubicle and never get hands dirty. That culture in our education system has mitigated the interest in trades/crafts.

3.) Our social programs have made it more attractive to some to live off the "system" than to have a career. We have generational welfare families where they are not interested in finding or holding jobs. When someone can sit at home... or hang out with his druggie buddies on the street corner... and make more than someone working 40 hours/week, where's the incentive??

4.) The telling our children that they can be cubicle inhabitants and never get dirty has seen a migration of Mexican Americans taking over the construction trades. Living in and around the engineering/construction industry for over 40 years, it is becoming more and more out of the ordinary to find crews that are not Spanish speaking. They work hard. They make good money. Our own children don't want that work or won't do that work.

5.) We grew up with Lincoln Logs, Erector Sets, chemistry sets, etc. We grew up changing flat tires, changing spark plugs, overhauling carb, etc. Today, our vehicles are virtually maintenance free. How many folks of this generation have every changed a flat tire?? How many folks of this generation could change a kitchen faucet or replace a bathroom toilet? All are very simple tasks, but they haven't grown up being taught to do manual tasks. Our son is assigned to one of the most elite of Special Ops units in the military. They needed a lawnmower for a small backyard at their quarters on post. If I had sent them a gas-powered mower, he wouldn't have known how to mix gas in a 2-cycle or check oil in a 4-cycle, etc. So, I sent him an electric mower and a long extension cord. He loves it because they only need to plug it in. Sheesh!!!!

Would the GOP go along with funding trade school/vocational school educations, we could turn much of this around. Instead, we are more concerned with continuing to spend our time trying to repeal the ACA... disenfranchise voters... do the bidding of the billionaires who have made it possible to get elected to office.

Between touchy feeley guidance counselors and corporate America we are producing specialists which leads to a lack of versatility along with creatures of bad habits.

You hit the nail on the head with things like changing flat tires or toys that taught something. And the over emphasis on college, pfffft. You don't see it too much anymore but I worked for old school businesses with mid to upper level management who worked their way up from the bottom. But in a day and age of specialists if one so much as applies for an entry level job just to get in the door they are considered not serious about a career & not a worthy candidate. Profiling HRs don't help either but they are frequently there to rationalize and cover up a company's hiring prefences ie cheap or one with low expectations/part timers.

 

[Lon]

But because there is wealth inequality between states, it seems to me that to be fair to all American citizens, the federal government has to be involved. People living in poor states will not have the same opportunities than those in richer states... when in fact it's the people in poor states that probably need the availability of trade education even more. The Federal government SHOULD play the role of equalizing the playing field by collecting taxes and making sure every American gets the same advantages that poor states cannot provide.. This is the reason FOR a Federal government.. otherwise we would simply be a collection of states.. not the UNITED States.

Involvement by the federal government will not make a Poor State any richer, job opportunity still has to exist or once trained the individual moves to a richer state and the problem continues.

 

[QuickSilver]

Involvement by the federal government will not make a Poor State any richer, job opportunity still has to exist or once trained the individual moves to a richer state and the problem continues.

NO... educated and employed people will.. BUT if a state is poor and cannot offer educational opportunities, how will the people in these states be trained? The othr problem you bring up would be to STOP rewarding companies who move their manufacturing jobs overseas and tax the hell out of their products if they want to sell them back into the USA.

 

[Lon]

Lon. re: the bolded I’m not understanding why you say “particularly minorities”.

Actually, a LOT of minorities have always sought and received such training.

If (and notice I said “if”) you are going to say because minorities go on welfare, well…….most of the people on welfare are white.

So, please explain.

While it may be true that the majority of the people on welfare are white, a disproportionate number of certain minorities are incarcerated. Plus, cultural habits of some minorities actually shun education outside of their sphere of knowledge and activity.

 

[applecruncher]

Lon, I appreciate you answering. Glad you said "some" minorities, although every group has its bad apples.

Yes, a disproportionate number of black males are incarcerated....that would be another discussion.

However, a good friend who, like myself, is black has a granddaughter who she has tried to help/guide in the right direction. Attractive, smart girl but she repeatedly allows some (unemployed) guy move in, lets him use her car, provides him with food, etc. while she works everyday. Then when the guy wrecks her car or outstanding warrants catch up with him, she calls grandma for money. Finally grandma said “Look, if you want to repeatedly take in strays and let them use you, that’s YOUR problem. I’m done. The answer is “no”. Good luck.” (I love it.)

 

[WhatInThe]

Involvement by the federal government will not make a Poor State any richer, job opportunity still has to exist or once trained the individual moves to a richer state and the problem continues.

...opportunity still has to exist... Exactly. The US taxpayer could pay for the Cadillac of job/career training programs but without the actual need including the ability of the individual consumer to pay for that trade/service any training could be useless.

 

[QuickSilver]

...opportunity still has to exist... Exactly. The US taxpayer could pay for the Cadillac of job/career training programs but without the actual need including the ability of the individual consumer to pay for that trade/service any training could be useless.

Which is exactly why corporations need to be returned to the tax rates of 70% as it was under Clinton. It was 94% under Eisenhower and the economy was booming. Why? Because in order to avoid paying such rates, businesses would take a reasonable profit for CEO salaries and bonuses and put the rest of their profit back into the business, by expanding, retooling, research an development..etc.. thus creating jobs.. and the need for a trained and educated workforce. With more jobs created people began buying goods and services thus creating more demand and companies expanded to meet that demand.

Now? Companies are rewarded for moving production overseas.. Unfair trade deals have pretty much made that possible. Companies no longer have the tax saving incentive to reinvest their profit. It's seen as cheap money and used for playing in the markets, or is stashed in tax shelters and overseas accounts. They are not using their tax savings to create jobs... but quite the opposite. SO .. no.. without jobs.. training is useless, but I think I've said that in previous posts.. The issues of NO jobs needs to addressed first.

 

[WhatInThe]

Which is exactly why corporations need to be returned to the tax rates of 70% as it was under Clinton. It was 94% under Eisenhower and the economy was booming. Why? Because in order to avoid paying such rates, businesses would take a reasonable profit for CEO salaries and bonuses and put the rest of their profit back into the business, by expanding, retooling, research an development..etc.. thus creating jobs.. and the need for a trained and educated workforce. With more jobs created people began buying goods and services thus creating more demand and companies expanded to meet that demand.

Now? Companies are rewarded for moving production overseas.. Unfair trade deals have pretty much made that possible. Companies no longer have the tax saving incentive to reinvest their profit. It's seen as cheap money and used for playing in the markets, or is stashed in tax shelters and overseas accounts. They are not using their tax savings to create jobs... but quite the opposite. SO .. no.. without jobs.. training is useless, but I think I've said that in previous posts.. The issues of NO jobs needs to addressed first.

The problem is that the US economy was already dying during the Clinton years. Not because of Bill but things like every increasing technology and globalization. Technology not only started killing labor jobs with power tools & robotics but white collar as well with computers compiling & analyzing a lot of data mid level management used to do. Treaties like NAFTA were only the beginning or part of outsourcing.

True corporate tax rates, tax breaks and/or disincentives need to be addressed. What I do not want to see are incentives like many of these sports teams get with their tax payer funded stadiums. A more true & natural free market needs to be cultivated rather than an artificially propped economy because once the props are removed or weaken there goes that economy.

 

[Butterfly]

My high school (graduated in '63) offered typing, shorthand, business English, basic bookkeeping, as electives. Though I was on the college track, I took those electives. Those skills always allowed me to find a job, albeit humble, and work my way up from the inside. I've always been so glad I took those courses and mastered those skills, though many are obsolete now because of computers, etc., they served me well.

And, of course, back in '63 we were actually LITERATE when we graduated from high school. My office several years ago hired some recent HS graduates to help out around the office in the summer. Most of them had terrible spelling and grammar, were unable to compose a simple letter or communicate in an adult environment (I mean carry on a conversation without the liberal use of "you know," "like" or "whatever"), and had no knowledge of basic business etiquette (you don't call a judge on the phone by his first name unless he's your uncle).

 

[WhatInThe]

My high school (graduated in '63) offered typing, shorthand, business English, basic bookkeeping, as electives. Though I was on the college track, I took those electives. Those skills always allowed me to find a job, albeit humble, and work my way up from the inside. I've always been so glad I took those courses and mastered those skills, though many are obsolete now because of computers, etc., they served me well.

And, of course, back in '63 we were actually LITERATE when we graduated from high school. My office several years ago hired some recent HS graduates to help out around the office in the summer. Most of them had terrible spelling and grammar, were unable to compose a simple letter or communicate in an adult environment (I mean carry on a conversation without the liberal use of "you know," "like" or "whatever"), and had no knowledge of basic business etiquette (you don't call a judge on the phone by his first name unless he's your uncle).

This is basically is what is missing in the average high school graduate today along with patience. Well rounded doesn't necessary mean one has to take an art or music course. Well rounded means a variety of skills or abilities along with a diverse academic resume.