Not trying to be controversial (female boxer with XY chromosome)

This used to be a problem with the female shot putters. The Russians were suspected of giving them male hormones to enhance their muscles; they also gave puberty blockers to the gymnasts to stop them developing. Remember Olga Korbutt? She was one of them.
 

Lavinia said:
This used to be a problem with the female shot putters. The Russians were suspected of giving them male hormones to enhance their muscles; they also gave puberty blockers to the gymnasts to stop them developing. Remember Olga Korbutt? She was one of them.
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This is right. But Western athletes were doped also. It's not the same, but foul play too. Examples are Lance Armstrong or Dietrich ("Didi") Thurau (German Cyclist).
 
Lavinia said:
This used to be a problem with the female shot putters. The Russians were suspected of giving them male hormones to enhance their muscles; they also gave puberty blockers to the gymnasts to stop them developing. Remember Olga Korbutt? She was one of them.
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Good to see you, Lavinia.
 
I haven't seen the karyotype testing reports performed on the two boxers in question last year by the International Boxing Association (IBA), but unless they're lying, both boxers tested as XY chromosomal, which means they are both male. Neither boxer appealed the IBA ruling.

One can't change one's karyotype or their genetics. For an easy explanation of chromosomal testing, this is a basic explanation: biologyonline [dot] com/tutorials/chromosomes-x-and-y-and-sex-determination [since I'm a new member, I copied the url in that way in case I can't yet use web addresses}

Reportedly the World Boxing Organization (WBO) notified the IOC in advance that the two boxers were male, but the IOC ignored their warning.
 
The Wall Street Jounal reports some interesting connections between the international boxing outfit and Russia. I put this out not to scare or shock anybody, but just to note that political issues may also be in play here.

The timing was curious. The decision to disqualify Khelif with little explanation came down just days after she had defeated Azaliia Amineva, a previously unbeaten Russian prospect. The body that leveled the ban, the International Boxing Association, has deep financial ties to Russia and is led by a former boxer friendly with Vladimir Putin.
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ChiroDoc said:
I haven't seen the karyotype testing reports performed on the two boxers in question last year by the International Boxing Association (IBA), but unless they're lying, both boxers tested as XY chromosomal, which means they are both male. Neither boxer appealed the IBA ruling.
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Yes... they did not qualify for previous events due to testing XY, so I would think that's all the "evidence" that would be needed.
 
ChiroDoc said:
I haven't seen the karyotype testing reports performed on the two boxers in question last year by the International Boxing Association (IBA), but unless they're lying, both boxers tested as XY chromosomal, which means they are both male. Neither boxer appealed the IBA ruling.

One can't change one's karyotype or their genetics. For an easy explanation of chromosomal testing, this is a basic explanation: biologyonline [dot] com/tutorials/chromosomes-x-and-y-and-sex-determination [since I'm a new member, I copied the url in that way in case I can't yet use web addresses}

Reportedly the World Boxing Organization (WBO) notified the IOC in advance that the two boxers were male, but the IOC ignored their warning.
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The IBA is corrupt so taking their word for anything is silly, especially when they dq'ed Khelif after she beat a Russian in 2023. I bolded 2 paragraphs which is the gist of the article.


The Athletic
By Zack Pierce and Nicole Auerbach
Aug 5, 2024

"PARIS — The International Boxing Association, the organization whose decision to disqualify Imane Khelif of Algeria and Lin Yu-ting of Taiwan from the 2023 world championships is at the heart of a firestorm engulfing the Olympic tournament, hosted a news conference on Monday “dedicated to the detailed explanation of the reasons for the disqualification” of the two fighters.

Instead, what followed was a two-hour affair of little explanation, a great deal of obfuscation, and a series of evasive answers to reporters’ questions that did nothing to back up the IBA’s claims that the women should be ineligible to compete in women’s divisions, even though they were both assigned female at birth and identify on official documents as women.

The controversy escalated last week when Khelif’s round-of-16 opponent at the Olympics, Italy’s Angela Carini, quit their bout after just 46 seconds after taking hard punches from Khelif and saying she couldn’t go on.

The unusual and swift ending to such a high-profile fight called extra attention to Khelif and Lin’s disqualifications at the 2023 worlds, an event run by the IBA, an organization backed by the Russian energy giant Gazprom that has been expelled from its association with the International Olympic Committee and the Games themselves.

Khelif and Lin were disqualified in the middle of the 2023 tournament, a few days after Khelif had defeated a Russian boxer, Azaliia Amineva. The IBA said Khelif and Lin were found to have “competitive advantages over other female competitors.”

Khelif said in an interview published Monday by The Associated Press and its video partner SNTV that she feels her best response to the “fierce campaign” against her is to win a gold medal.

“This thing has effects, massive effects. It can destroy people, it can kill people’s thoughts, spirit, and mind,” she said. “And it can divide people. And because of that, I ask them to refrain from bullying.”


On Monday, with a platform to lay out their supposed evidence for the disqualifications, IBA president Umar Kremlev spent most of his time speaking in vague terms about upholding rules, defending democracy and dissatisfaction with IOC president Thomas Bach, while repeatedly criticizing the opening ceremony of the Paris Games.


The expert doctor the IBA brought to the panel — Dr. Ioannis Filippatos, a former chair of the IBA’s medical committee — offered little in medical specifics, saying, at one point, “I don’t want to speak too much medicine to you.”

Asked how anyone could trust the IBA after years of judging scandals, financial corruption and other misdeeds, Chris Roberts, the organization’s secretary general, talked about bureaucratic successes that had little to do with public trust.

About the closest anyone got to adding detail was when talking about two separate blood tests they said Khelif and Lin underwent, though no documentation of the tests were provided. One test was performed in Istanbul in 2022 and deemed “inconclusive,” Roberts said. A second test was then performed at the world championships in 2023 that led to their subsequent disqualifications.

The IBA officials said the national Olympic committees of Chinese Taipei (the Olympic designation for Taiwan) told them not to disclose private information about any boxers.

Instead, the officials spoke in broad and often contradictory terms about gender, sex and their own tests. Kremlev said the testing showed testosterone levels as high as those for men but that he could not give any proof. The comment contradicted IBA’s official statement last Thursday, in which it stated that “the athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination.” But, repeatedly, IBA officials referred to high testosterone levels at Monday’s news conference.

“We’re not able to disclose the results of any tests,” Roberts said. “But you can read between the lines about where that sits.”

Kremlev said Monday that the IBA would compensate the “women victims” who lost to Khelif and Lin at the Paris Games, saying that they were harmed by the inclusion of the two fighters in the event. He did not express any concern for the mental or physical wellbeing of Khelif and Lin, who have found themselves at the center widespread scorn, though he was asked specifically about them.

Khelif’s coach, Mohamed Chaoua, in an interview with SNTV and the AP, dismissed the IBA’s tests as “worthless.” “They (boxing authorities) did some worthless tests, tests that don’t show anything, the only test that matter is the sexual one, the only test to prove a person is a man or a woman, or trans,” Chaoua said in the interview. “They didn’t (do those tests). They took blood samples and said they found this and that.”

The IOC — which has said that countries that stay loyal to the IBA are risking boxing at the 2028 Los Angeles Olympics — has repeatedly defended Khelif and Lin’s inclusion in the Games, saying they meet all eligibility criteria.

GO DEEPER
Questions and answers: The Olympic women’s boxing gender controversy

“They are eligible by the rules of the federation which was set in 2016, and which worked for Tokyo too,” where Khelif and Lin also competed, IOC spokesman Mark Adams said last week. “To compete as women, which is what they are. And we fully support that.”

Khelif’s quarterfinal opponent, Hungary’s Anna Luca Hamori, added fuel to the controversy before their bout with a series of disparaging social media posts that played into the IBA’s messaging. Their fight went the distance, with Khelif winning by unanimous decision. The two seemed cordial after the fight, but the Hungarian fighter’s camp did not exactly douse the fire in its post-fight comments.

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“We are not afraid of difficult circumstances and are ready to fight even among difficult circumstances,” said Balázs Fürjes, a Hungarian International Olympic Committee member. “We are proud founding members of the international Olympic family. We are 100 percent convinced that the International Olympic Committee will make the right decisions.”

After beating Hamori, Khelif collapsed to the mat in tears. She told the AP the whole ordeal was weighing on her.

“I couldn’t control my nerves,” Khelif said. “Because after the media frenzy and after the victory, there was a mix of joy and at the same time. I was greatly affected because honestly. It wasn’t an easy thing to go through at all. It was something that harms human dignity. And this is what affected me at the end of the match.”

Nearly two hours into Monday’s news conference, most of the reporters present relocated toward the back of the room, where another Algerian boxer, Roumaysa Boualam, spoke in support of Khelif, her friend. Boualam held the Algerian flag as she called the entire ordeal “disgusting.”

“She will box, and she will fight,” Boualam said. “This is unfair, what’s happened. … We have to support her.”

Khelif (66 kilograms, 145 pounds) and Lin (57 kilograms, 125 pounds) have already clinched medals by making the semifinals in their respective weight classes. Boxing has no bronze medal bout — the semifinal losers each get a bronze and are not asked to fight again.

Khelif fights Tuesday night at Roland Garros, which is converting one of its arenas to a boxing venue with tennis concluded. Lin fights Wednesday night."


IBA wiki
 
CallMeKate said:
I don't know.... but I'd drive myself bonkers seeing a conspiracy around every corner.
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No body knows where the evidence is............hmmmmmmm

You're dead wrong about about not qualifying for events, they, the IBA, took blood samples after she had beaten the Russian in the 2023 event.

"Khelif and Lin were disqualified in the middle of the 2023 tournament, a few days after Khelif had defeated a Russian boxer, Azaliia Amineva. The IBA said Khelif and Lin were found to have “competitive advantages over other female competitors.”"
 
againstthegrain said:
No body knows where the evidence is............hmmmmmmm
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So wouldn't common sense dictate the test should just be done again... like immediately? :unsure: Of course common sense seems to be in short supply these days. It would solve the controversy... no XY? Great, give her/him/whatever a gold medal. XY present? Great again, let someone else have the medals and don't let any more women get abused physically in front of the entire world.
 
CallMeKate said:
So wouldn't common sense dictate the test should just be done again... like immediately? :unsure: Of course common sense seems to be in short supply these days. It would solve the controversy... no XY? Great, give her/him/whatever a gold medal. XY present? Great again, let someone else have the medals and don't let any more women get abused physically in front of the entire world.
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I agree. And the boxers' home countries did not appeal the IBA rulings, even though they were perfectly entitled to. If their countries had objective evidence that their boxers were biological females, why didn't they appeal?

It seems to me that the IOC should have followed IBA's previous example of testing the two boxers after they suspected bogus sex classifications.

Noticeably the IOC has gotten a huge amount of backlash over this and other issues, so hopefully they'll clean up their act for future events.
 
John cycling said:
Khelif is an XY chromosome man and is therefore a man, not a woman.

The IBA's eligibility rules prevent athletes with XY chromosomes from competing in women's events.
This is why the IBA banned Khelif and other men from their women's competitions.

However, the IOC stupidly maintains that inclusion should be the default, and that men should only be excluded from
women's competitions if there are clear fairness or safety issues, which there obviously are in cases like these. However,
regardless of that, they have continued to defend their terrible decision to allow Khelif - and other XY men - to compete.
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As far as I know, she was born with...... a woman's bits. Yes, she has an abnormality that means she has an XY chromosome. I think it's very harsh to refer to her as a man. She's never had the full range of man bits, has never lived as a man. I'm likely on the same page when it comes to transsexual women fighting/competing against other women, but this case really is different. In a sense, she has a physical disability, and as such is due courtesy, imo.
 
CallMeKate said:
So wouldn't common sense dictate the test should just be done again... like immediately? :unsure: Of course common sense seems to be in short supply these days. It would solve the controversy... no XY? Great, give her/him/whatever a gold medal. XY present? Great again, let someone else have the medals and don't let any more women get abused physically in front of the entire world.
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Why should she be forced into testing that isn't given to every athlete? Why would anyone believe what IBA has to say? And should every unsubstantiated rumor of cheating be investigated?

"The following year, Amy Broadhurst beat Khelif in the 2022 Women's World Championship Final. The Irish ace has joined the debate on X, posting: "Have a lot of people texting me over Imane Khelif. Personally I don't think she has done anything to 'cheat'. I thinks it’s the way she was born & that's out of her control. The fact that she has been beaten by 9 females before says it all."

Broadhurst, who was born in Dundalk, has represented both the Republic of Ireland and Great Britain, thanks to her English father, Tony. She easily defeated Khelif 5-0 in the light welterweight final in Istanbul."

VaughanJB said:
As far as I know, she was born with...... a woman's bits. Yes, she has an abnormality that means she has an XY chromosome. I think it's very harsh to refer to her as a man. She's never had the full range of man bits, has never lived as a man. I'm likely on the same page when it comes to transsexual women fighting/competing against other women, but this case really is different. In a sense, she has a physical disability, and as such is due courtesy, imo.
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Where did you find that tidbit?
 
Let's end it here please.


Transcript

0:00
‏our is that we have exs with of this is
0:06
the laboratory not my answer the answer
0:10
from laboratory
0:13
very is very good i
0:16
respect but as doctor i need to
0:21
prot the c
0:24
[موسيقى]
0:37
‏med
0:41
medicals laborator
0:43
[موسيقى]
1:06
‏it wasn't good was dis for both boxers
1:09
you spend program to get to these to get
1:12
to these games and it turns into a
1:14
disaster
 
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