What's your view on tariffs?

bobcat

bobcat

Well-known Member
Location
Northern Calif
Do they work, and who ends up paying them?
If the president imposes a 20% tariff on something coming from China, several things can happen.
So, how does a tariff work.
When the goods arrive at the dock in America, the retailer that ordered them pays for the extra cost. Then they have three choices. They could just absorb the extra cost, which reduces their profit significantly, or they could pass half of the cost on to the consumer, or pass all the cost on to their customers.

The president can then present to the public the impressive figure of, (Let's say 38 billion dollars) of extra revenue collected by the tariff, all the while, the American public are likely the ones who paid it. The reason could be used, that with the now higher price of goods coming from China, that it will turn people toward buying the more expensive American goods instead of from China.

Next, the tariff imposed will likely provoke the other country to impose a tariff on goods we ship to them, which means their consumers will likely pay it, or they may seek those goods from a different country.

It's complicated, but in the end, who is giving this extra money to the government, and who does it benefit or hurt in the end.
 

bobcat said:
Do they work, and who ends up paying them?
If the president imposes a 20% tariff on something coming from China, several things can happen.
So, how does a tariff work.
When the goods arrive at the dock in America, the retailer that ordered them pays for the extra cost. Then they have three choices. They could just absorb the extra cost, which reduces their profit significantly, or they could pass half of the cost on to the consumer, or pass all the cost on to their customers.

The president can then present to the public the impressive figure of, (Let's say 38 billion dollars) of extra revenue collected by the tariff, all the while, the American public are likely the ones who paid it. The reason could be used, that with the now higher price of goods coming from China, that it will turn people toward buying the more expensive American goods instead of from China.

Next, the tariff imposed will likely provoke the other country to impose a tariff on goods we ship to them, which means their consumers will likely pay it, or they may seek those goods from a different country.

It's complicated, but in the end, who is giving this extra money to the government, and who does it benefit or hurt in the end.
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Tariffs only work, if applied to all countries. If applied to China, the production is moved to Vietnam, etc.

The USA, has a trade deficit of $1 Trillion annually. That deficit represents a -4.4% drag on GDP. When Volcker wrested the country from inflation... it came at quite a cost.
 
In the end the consumer is the one that always pays for the total cost of goods.

IMO if a domestic product offers a better alternative to an imported product a tariff wouldn’t be unnecessary.

It’s almost impossible to buy American these days and I’m not smart enough to know if that’s still as important as it once seemed to be.
 

It was greed that prompted companies to farm out industries to China because the Chinese will work for lower wages. This cost the livelihoods of whole communities in Britain. Imported goods are cheap but of inferior quality to British goods.
Ultimately, it's the consumer who holds the power. If everyone made a point of buying British, the whole business of foreign imports would fall apart.
However, the government then puts an extra tax on all goods and spending stops. Our town centres are dying because prices are so high, costs are high and people are just not buying new goods. The only businesses which are flourishing are food outlets.
 
As with all ideological and political actions, they seldom accomplish what they say they will, and often produce the opposite effect. I say "seldom" because some may be somewhat beneficial, but none will turn out to be the best idea anyone ever had. And no matter what is done, there will be disagreement.
 
Lavinia said:
It was greed that prompted companies to farm out industries to China because the Chinese will work for lower wages. This cost the livelihoods of whole communities in Britain. Imported goods are cheap but of inferior quality to British goods.
Ultimately, it's the consumer who holds the power. If everyone made a point of buying British, the whole business of foreign imports would fall apart.
However, the government then puts an extra tax on all goods and spending stops. Our town centres are dying because prices are so high, costs are high and people are just not buying new goods. The only businesses which are flourishing are food outlets.
Click to expand...
I seem to have modified my thinking over the years. In the past, I guess I was more focused on America and American jobs. However, I think I have relaxed that a bit with time because whoever is making the product is just trying to make a living and feed their families, no matter what country they live in. I think of it as more of a global commerce.

That doesn't mean I agree with the politics of other countries or how they treat their people, but I do have some sympathy for the people who live there and their need to survive despite how the country is governed. Many American companies have factories in other countries because of cheaper labor, and either the goods are made there, or those factories are part of the supply chain. Then the goods are shipped to America, assembled here, and claim it's American made.

In addition, foreign companies also have factories here in America. It would probably shock you to know how many "American" businesses are actually Chinese owned. Many people don't have much disposable income, and they are forced to vote with their wallet as to which goods they can afford. They have to price shop, not look at labels.
 
Lavinia said:
It was greed that prompted companies to farm out industries to China because the Chinese will work for lower wages.
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It was capitalism as much as greed.

Tariff's are used for various reasons, and simply looking at them from a cost perspective sorta skips over the point.

For example, a tariff might be in place that I have to pay more for a car, oh whoa is me! On the other hand, that tariff may be protecting the jobs of 1000's of Americans or Brits, allowing them to have a home, feed their families, and give their share of the tax burden. Is the tariff wrong?

In recent times a certain country has started a war in mainland Europe. They were asked to stop, and didn't. So tariff's and other political mechanics were used in order to persuade this country that a war was a bad idea.

Now, some people out there have seen their bank accounts frozen, prices rise on energy, and a whole lot of things. On the other hand, these actions were done in the hope off saving tens of thousands of people from injury, disease, and death. Were the action taken valid?

That's not to mention the stealing of technology, counterfeit goods, and so on.

Some tariff's end up achieving their goals. Some do not. But they have a role in a world that is far more complex than simply being the cost of steel from abroad.
 
About 20 years ago, I had a Taiwanese friend who had worked as a plant manager in mainland China. I learned from him that, in his factory, conditions of employment were little better than slave labor. Most workers lived on site, pay was very low but included a bunk and meager meals. If a supervisor didn't feel an employee was working "hard enough", they were immediately discharged as there were always ten others who would gladly take their place. Employee complaints weren't tolerated.

Safety considerations were virtually non-existent. Environmental rules were considered a nuisance and were largely ignored.

Meanwhile, jobs in the US were disappearing as more and more Chinese goods were being brought in. Entire industries were decimated by competition from 3rd world countries and by increasingly costly regulations imposed on US businesses by the US government.

I don't know much about the way import tariffs work, but the way they're implemented seems to have failed in protecting US jobs. Personally I try to avoid buying products made in third world countries whenever I can, even at additional expense. I realize that I'm fortunate to be able to do that.

bobcat said:
Then the goods are shipped to America, assembled here, and claim it's American made.
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US laws require that products marked Made in USA be "all or substantially all" made in the USA.
 
Tommy said:
I don't know much about the way import tariffs work, but the way they're implemented seems to have failed in protecting US jobs. Personally I try to avoid buying products made in third world countries whenever I can, even at additional expense. I realize that I'm fortunate to be able to do that.
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You want to know a large part of why? Because ultimately, people don't care. I mean, they might speak at a political rally decrying lost jobs and to bring manufacturing back the US, but in their every day life they'll do whatever they please, usually the opposite.

Hence Apple are so rich. Everyone knows the main manufacturing is done abroad. Does it stop people buying their products? No. People want cheap and whatever they like, and if that means Bob in Detroit loses his job, oh well.

Manufacturing could move back to the US tomorrow, creating thousands of jobs. The truth is, the US has a standard of living, and to help people live here the ultimate price to the consumer would have to rise. And that, my friend, is where people draw the line in "Made in USA".
 
Tommy said:
About 20 years ago, I had a Taiwanese friend who had worked as a plant manager in mainland China. I learned from him that, in his factory, conditions of employment were little better than slave labor. Most workers lived on site, pay was very low but included a bunk and meager meals. If a supervisor didn't feel an employee was working "hard enough", they were immediately discharged as there were always ten others who would gladly take their place. Employee complaints weren't tolerated.

Safety considerations were virtually non-existent. Environmental rules were considered a nuisance and were largely ignored.

Meanwhile, jobs in the US were disappearing as more and more Chinese goods were being brought in. Entire industries were decimated by competition from 3rd world countries and by increasingly costly regulations imposed on US businesses by the US government.

I don't know much about the way import tariffs work, but the way they're implemented seems to have failed in protecting US jobs. Personally I try to avoid buying products made in third world countries whenever I can, even at additional expense. I realize that I'm fortunate to be able to do that.


US laws require that products marked Made in USA be "all or substantially all" made in the USA.
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Many of those claims have been replaced with assembled in the USA. There isn't even any car sold today in America that is entirely made in America. The supply chain procures parts from other countries and assembled here. If we buy a car, we are supporting jobs in other countries. That's just the way it works.
 
Lavinia said:
It was greed that prompted companies to farm out industries to China because the Chinese will work for lower wages. This cost the livelihoods of whole communities in Britain. Imported goods are cheap but of inferior quality to British goods.
Ultimately, it's the consumer who holds the power. If everyone made a point of buying British, the whole business of foreign imports would fall apart.
However, the government then puts an extra tax on all goods and spending stops. Our town centres are dying because prices are so high, costs are high and people are just not buying new goods. The only businesses which are flourishing are food outlets.
Click to expand...
...and Nail salons, Coffee shops, and ''Turkish barbers''
 
I think the now postponed tariffs are the US striking back against imports from Canada like Justin Bieber, funny spelling, and the need to put instructions in French and not just English and Spanish. Also, all those snowbirds from Canada that crowd our stores, restaurants, and roads from November through April. Add in 10 years of having to listen to babblings of that youngster Premier Trudeau and we’re not going to take it anymore. Enough! 😀
 
Don M. said:
Any tariffs imposed are ultimately paid by the consumer. If the proposed tariffs are eventually imposed, we will see double digit "inflation".
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And the money eventually paid by the consumer goes into the US treasury. It's similar to a tax increase but it's presented as extra money from foreign companies. Sure it hurts them as intended if they sell fewer products, but US residents ultimately foot the bill.
 
Well what Trump is trying to do is to make the other two countries Canada and Mexico stand up and start enforcing the border controls and to stop the flow of drugs and illegal crossing mainly from the southern border.

Now that both of those countries have agreed to start having more guards at the border that means that they are now enforcing the rules and as such Trump will halt the tariffs for now.

Regarding China it's more of an intellectual property dispute and so the tariff is being raised but it's not as high as what Mexico and Canada have been threatened with.
 
bobcat said:
Do they work, and who ends up paying them?
If the president imposes a 20% tariff on something coming from China, several things can happen.
So, how does a tariff work.
When the goods arrive at the dock in America, the retailer that ordered them pays for the extra cost. Then they have three choices. They could just absorb the extra cost, which reduces their profit significantly, or they could pass half of the cost on to the consumer, or pass all the cost on to their customers.

The president can then present to the public the impressive figure of, (Let's say 38 billion dollars) of extra revenue collected by the tariff, all the while, the American public are likely the ones who paid it. The reason could be used, that with the now higher price of goods coming from China, that it will turn people toward buying the more expensive American goods instead of from China.

Next, the tariff imposed will likely provoke the other country to impose a tariff on goods we ship to them, which means their consumers will likely pay it, or they may seek those goods from a different country.

It's complicated, but in the end, who is giving this extra money to the government, and who does it benefit or hurt in the end.
Click to expand...

I hope this thread doesn't get too specific and political, posts have been deleted for that kind of thing. and then the whole thread has been deleted. Let's speak in general terms.

I've recently been reading up on the history of tariffs. It seemed a reasonable thing to research considering it's been in the news so much -- every news outlet, every day!

It seems to me that a tariff is essentially a domestic tax on imports. There's no international mechanism for one country to directly tax another. However, any money raised through tariffs clearly comes from somewhere -- and it mostly comes out of the pockets of the citizens/customers in the country that implemented the tariffs.

An importer could potentially absorb some of that tariff, but only up to the point where profits become so low that the business is no longer viable. Prices then in the stores will only go up. Alternatively, importers might seek a different supplier from another country, though that’s not always easy -- especially if a country imposes tariffs on potential multiple major trading partners.

What also strikes me as concerning is how some countries depend heavily on a limited number of trade partners. When a nation exports 40% of its goods to just one country, it exposes itself to pressure, manipulation, or even economic or political bullying if the international relationship goes sour. From what I've read, one country exports approximately 75% of its goods to another. How foolish is that, to be locked in so closely to another country? In that respect, It's almost part of the same country. The phrase too many eggs in one basket springs to mind.

Targeting specific imported goods to protect domestic industries is one thing, but placing high tariffs on all imports from a particular country is something entirely different -- and it often has little to do with safeguarding domestic businesses. It's clearly done for some other reason.
 
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This has nothing to do with the average person, its all about Billion-dollar deals.
You hear all the a-hems and Coughs.
Bluster, threats, Honesty given the finger.

Tomorrow dawns & the West is in t-total debt! Call it Whatever___ ... :ROFLMAO: ...
China in deep trouble , debt, Russia, Korea. Nukes fly is the easiest way to cure it they say.

Maybe half the world's population is at or near retirement! Problems solved.
Ladies Tomatoes in Cans hardly exist in stores anymore. Stewed, lil cans only. See the lil things mean big stuff. No Eggs, cracked ones only.
Pay attention to the lil things and one understands stuff better.

But Tariffs isn't what's gonna happen, wait a bit!
 
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To anyone who doesn't understand tariffs, they are basically taxes imposed upon goods imported from other countries. The importers of those goods (grocery stores, automakers, sellers of computers, etc.) may choose to absorb some of those tariffs but most often they pass it onto consumers. And as products imported into the US get more expensive, so do products produced in the US. It is simply pricing elasticity.

As for returning manufacturing to the US to replace imports, it typically takes 18-24 months to start up a new factory, so although it sounds like a great idea it could mean almost 2 years of inflation and pain before manufacturing returns to the US. In the interim, major companies like Ford and GM could suffer tremendous financial losses because many of the parts in their cars are imported from countries like Mexico and Canada.

Remember the shortage of cars during Covid? This was because the chips for those cars were produced primarily in Taiwan. Cars are basically rolling computers these days and without chips they don't operate. Thanks to the CHIPS Act, the US is now less reliant on China.

So IMO it would be best if new tariffs are not implemented.
 
seadoug said:
To anyone who doesn't understand tariffs, they are basically taxes imposed upon goods imported from other countries. The importers of those goods (grocery stores, automakers, sellers of computers, etc.) may choose to absorb some of those tariffs but most often they pass it onto consumers. And as products imported into the US get more expensive, so do products produced in the US. It is simply pricing elasticity.
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I think what some don't realise, is that if a particular imported product price increases significantly, and yet some resemblance of sales remains, the domestic manufacturers/companies might think, "I'll have a piece of that!". The domestic company might then put their prices up too -- just below the price of the foreign tariffed competitor.
 
I think that throwing out EV mandates (pretty much everywhere but China) will mean that a lot of things could loosen up for auto buyers. The financial stress of the unpopular mandates has been a huge tax on consumers.
 
This is all about 10's of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ billions, Deals and money dangling handouts. Thas all.
I have a Dealership with 100's of Silverado and GMC Sieras sitting on the 100 acres. people bought gasoline cars.
One person drives an EV in the Residential district I live in. Usually well below the speed limit too. I usually see
A handful of EV's on the Express way in my huge Metro area when we drive 50 miles or so. 4 Cybertrucks in the
last 2 years, all the same color. Very ugly things is my thoughts. One white tesla and one dark grey occasionally
in my smaller metro, Lawyers or Dr. most likely.
 
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