Do you think we will always have poor people?

[Mitch86]

"Poor" people in the USA would be regarded as wealthy in Namibia and India.

 

[ElCastor]

The environment in which a person grows up, including education, nutrition, socio-economic status, and exposure to learning opportunities, also has a significant impact on IQ. The fact that you can practice taking I.Q. tests to improve your score is evidence that it is more than just genetic.

Also, growing up in a stressful environment, such as in an abusive home or in a high crime rate neighborhood can affect your intelligence and emotional state.

There are many who would disagree with you on the genetic origin of intelligence. At any rate, the two groups that are considered to have the highest intelligence among us are Ashkenazi Jews and East Asians. Largely believed to be genetic. There are interesting stories about each, but I won‘t go into it. And how about the racial origin of much athletic ability, also largely genetic but in that case traceable to an historic evolution in a harsh rugged environment In which athleticism was an essential key to survival and reproduction.

 

[Teacher Terry]

yep.. but as a country who fell into a recession at the end of last year, altho' out of the recession now but struggling, I feel that Charities asking for people to donate money is beyond the pale.

I donate on a regular basis.. but with goods to sell in charity shops. We have dozens of different charity shops , including the SA.. so every month when I donate I share the goods between 2 or 3 at a time

In the states the Salvation Army is the best charity because they take very small salaries and most of the money goes to their programs to help people with substance abuse problems and other issues.

Because it’s a religious organization a colonel and his wife run each local charity and take one small salary between them. They are provided free housing and retirement benefits.

They have programs where people can live in their houses for free and in exchange work in their stores and warehouses and many gain job skills. They are given a tiny amount of spending money and have to attend church and AA meetings.

Many of my clients benefited from their programs and they are the kindest people I have ever met. When I was married I donated money once a year. I can no longer afford to do that but do donate items to their thrift stores.

 

[Knight]

World wide yes there will always be people who are not economically able to afford a standard of living as described in Radrooks post #91.

Mitch86 put it in perspective.
Quote
""Poor" people in the USA would be regarded as wealthy in Namibia and India."

 

[hollydolly]

In the states the Salvation Army is the best charity because they take very small salaries and most of the money goes to their programs to help people with substance abuse problems and other issues.

Because it’s a religious organization a colonel and his wife run each local charity and take one small salary between them. They are provided free housing and retirement benefits.

They have programs where people can live in their houses for free and in exchange work in their stores and warehouses and many gain job skills. They are given a tiny amount of spending money and have to attend church and AA meetings.

Many of my clients benefited from their programs and they are the kindest people I have ever met. When I was married I donated money once a year. I can no longer afford to do that but do donate items to their thrift stores.

that's not how the SA works here as a charity organisation. The charity shops are run under the banner of the Salvation Army but in fact are a retail corporation..and therefore only need to donate a very minimum amount to the Salvation army Corp...which is who you would know as the marching, drum banging, church going SA...

the retail (Cahrity) stores do not provide anything for the homeless.. but the donation given to the SA Corp goes a little way to helping them, provide shelter,..toand food to those sleeping on the streets..

They certainly don't provide jobs or homes for anyone.. unfortunately...

 

[Teacher Terry]

Hollydolly, I did wonder if it was different in your country. It’s much better here. Basically they give people 6 months to find a job and a place to live as well as emotional support. We have many organizations that use thrift stores to raise funds for their charities.

The small local ones are also really good at using their money wisely without large overhead. The worst ones are the United Way, Red Cross, etc.

 

[OneEyedDiva]

The problem with this thought is that for this to be true, you have to assume that money (all forms) has a limited supply, which is not true. Poor people are not poor because we ran out of cash/ or credit that they could have. Why we have people that are poor is for many, many, reasons...e.g. Poorly educated/ trained, handicapped in some way, have no access (no work where they live, have no knowledge of how to pursue/ earn money, no money where they live, etc. etc.)

Your reply doesn't make a drop of sense to me T60+. Your statement assumes that you know what "many factors" I was referring to but apparently you don't (know them all). It is a complicated set of economics which I didn't feel like going into, but your last sentence (which I bolded) mentions reasons that are indeed included in the factors I "spoke" of. How much money is or is not in supply never crossed my mind when I replied. So where you got that from, I don't know!

 

[Capt Lightning]

There's some debate as to the origin, but I believe it when people say ”I’ve been rich, I’ve been poor. I’ll tell you something. Rich is better.”

To answer the question, yes, there will always be poor. I don't hold with this notion that it's caused by greed, or that it's caused by the rich not sharing their wealth. I think that Timewise 60+ is correct in suggesting some of the reasons for poverty.

 

[HermitHogan]

People who are born into rich families are likely to be wealthy as adults, since they often inherit wealth, are likely to go to college and have lucrative careers, they find spouses who also have money and careers. They don't graduate college with a mountain of debt, they have connections that help their careers and investments.

Obviously, someone born into a poor family doesn't have any of those advantages. And they're more likely to be born into a single parent household, which makes life even more difficult.

Something needs to be done to level the playing field, so to speak. I don't know what that entails. Assistance with college tuition and job skills training are a few of the obvious solutions, but beyond that, I'm not sure.

 

[Jeni]

People who are born into rich families are likely to be wealthy as adults, since they often inherit wealth, are likely to go to college and have lucrative careers, they find spouses who also have money and careers. They don't graduate college with a mountain of debt, they have connections that help their careers and investments.

Obviously, someone born into a poor family doesn't have any of those advantages. And they're more likely to be born into a single parent household, which makes life even more difficult.

Something needs to be done to level the playing field, so to speak. I don't know what that entails. Assistance with college tuition and job skills training are a few of the obvious solutions, but beyond that, I'm not sure.

Being MORE likely is not a definite outcome..... or a place set plans or policies from.
Rich families it is not always about inherited wealth...... but maybe a better understanding of how investment/ savings and leveraging credit when needed works.
College cost IMO has little to do with it ..........as Many from poor background are the only ones that qualify for literally thousands of scholarships and grants.
One can look at professional sports athletes most all went to college and had very lucrative careers (whether they learned or were passed along for sport scholarship is debatable) ...some saved and invested and made a business plan and finances set in case of career ending injury and retirement. Even hiring money managers you NEED basic skills to know that you are not taken for a ride.

A stunning 78% of professional athletes go broke after just three years of retirement, Craig Brown, an NKSFB Sports Business Division partner, told FOX Business' "Mornings with Maria" in 2022.
They had lucrative careers but no money management skills.

 

[VaughanJB]

I just posted in another thread about a woman in her latter years, and those in a mobile home park, and how they are being driven to the streets. In the woman's case, she was in Mexico City, and landlords have found they can make more money by having their rental properties turned to Airbnb units. She had lived there for 20 years and was being made to leave. Due to the Airbnb rush, she could no longer afford to live in the city.

The second case was where a Private Equity company had bought a mobile home park and had raised rents by 60%.

The point being, in the context of this thread, being forced on to the streets and into poverty can be a brutal change in circumstances. Private Equity companies don't care about individuals. It's just profit.

 

[Aunt Bea]

I just posted in another thread about a woman in her latter years, and those in a mobile home park, and how they are being driven to the streets. In the woman's case, she was in Mexico City, and landlords have found they can make more money by having their rental properties turned to Airbnb units. She had lived there for 20 years and was being made to leave. Due to the Airbnb rush, she could no longer afford to live in the city.

The second case was where a Private Equity company had bought a mobile home park and had raised rents by 60%.

The point being, in the context of this thread, being forced on to the streets and into poverty can be a brutal change in circumstances. Private Equity companies don't care about individuals. It's just profit.

Has it ever been any different?

If you can’t pay, you can’t stay.

Inflation has always been the enemy of the elderly and the working poor.

There isn’t much any of us can do to protect ourselves at this point in our lives.

We should all do what we can to help the young people in our lives plan and prepare for a secure future.

 

[VaughanJB]

Has it ever been any different?

If you can’t pay, you can’t stay.

Inflation has always been the enemy of the elderly and the working poor.

There isn’t much any of us can do to protect ourselves at this point in our lives.

We all should do what we can to help the young people in our lives plan and prepare for a secure future.

Neither case is "Inflation" related. They're owners, and private equity companies, buying properties and instantly raising the price. This isn't normal market forces either - this is profiteering. Has it ever been different? Yes, actually. Private Equity firms started buying significant property around 2010 or so.

Stating "if you can't pay, you can't stay" seems - if I may say so - cold given the situation. The woman was in her latter years, had lived and paid rent for 20 years, and was overnight told to get out because of the rise in Airbnb. Do we have no compassion in us for such circumstances? Or the people happily living, and paying rent, in their mobile homes, who suddenly get hit with a 60% rent increase. Can that really simply be written off as "you can't pay, you can't stay".

Some of these people may end up on the street - and for me I can't accept a "you can't pay you can't stay" argument. These people have done nothing wrong, their lives are simply destroyed over night.

 

[hollydolly]

Hollydolly, I did wonder if it was different in your country. It’s much better here. Basically they give people 6 months to find a job and a place to live as well as emotional support. We have many organizations that use thrift stores to raise funds for their charities.

The small local ones are also really good at using their money wisely without large overhead. The worst ones are the United Way, Red Cross, etc.

wow that's amazing. They don't do that here.. altho' They used to have Salvation army hostels , I used one myself age 16 when I ran away from home, but they are very few and far between now...

We have so many charities... all have shops.. Cancer research ( the money does seem to go to them).. Red Cross ( the money seems to go abroad )... Salvation Army... ( I explained earlier)... so many Hospices.. Isabel, Elizabeth.. loads.... Help the Aged..

Help the aged, Red Cross, Cancer Research... Salvation army .. are among the biggest Charities here... most of the money goes into fat cat pockets.. . sadly.

People give thinking they're helping the more unfortunate of society.. in fact for the biggest charities we're just helping the executives get richer.. I know what I'm talking about. After I took retirement from my job as TV & film researcher.. I went to work for one of those Charities ( I won't say which one)>.. and I saw enough of it to sicken me... ...

I have a really shocking story about one Hospice .. but it would make this post too long.. so I'll leave it for another time

 

[Aunt Bea]

Neither case is "Inflation" related. They're owners, and private equity companies, buying properties and instantly raising the price. This isn't normal market forces either - this is profiteering. Has it ever been different? Yes, actually. Private Equity firms started buying significant property around 2010 or so.

Stating "if you can't pay, you can't stay" seems - if I may say so - cold given the situation. The woman was in her latter years, had lived and paid rent for 20 years, and was overnight told to get out because of the rise in Airbnb. Do we have no compassion in us for such circumstances? Or the people happily living, and paying rent, in their mobile homes, who suddenly get hit with a 60% rent increase. Can that really simply be written off as "you can't pay, you can't stay".

Some of these people may end up on the street - and for me I can't accept a "you can't pay you can't stay" argument. These people have done nothing wrong, their lives are simply destroyed over night.

I don’t necessarily disagree but I don’t see how it has ever been any different.

I don’t favor any sort of regulations on how much people can charge or sell their property for so IMHO it comes down to the individual doing a better job to protect themselves and the people that they care about with the taxpayers providing some assistance in the most extreme cases.

 

[Pepper]

I'm all right so phuk you Jack.

 

[hollydolly]

People who are born into rich families are likely to be wealthy as adults, since they often inherit wealth, are likely to go to college and have lucrative careers, they find spouses who also have money and careers. They don't graduate college with a mountain of debt, they have connections that help their careers and investments.

Obviously, someone born into a poor family doesn't have any of those advantages. And they're more likely to be born into a single parent household, which makes life even more difficult.

I have to take issue with this..sorry HH... but that is simply not true in many cases ... people are born into poor families who have 2 parents.. I was one of those along with my siblings , and my daughter also was one of those for a while

Nothing to do with single parenthood, just that we were on minimum wage when she was born..and equally my own parents too..

My mother worked part-time because back in those days it was illegal to leave your children under 14 alone even for a couple of hours.. so she had to be there when we came home from school.. so part-time work was all she could do..

My father worked full time.. but minimum wage... and for a time the same thing with my daughter.. My ex husband was in the Royal Navy..desperately poor wages.. and I worked part-time and then my husband had a gambling addiction .. so we were very poor..and back then there was no handouts for people who were earning under a certain amount as there is today.

In actual fact single parents now, are often much better off than 2 parent families because of those hand outs, than people who work minimum or low wages..

 

[VaughanJB]

I don’t necessarily disagree but I don’t see how it has ever been any different.

I don’t favor any sort of regulations on how much people can charge or sell their property for so IMHO it comes down to the individual doing a better job to protect themselves and the people that they care about with the taxpayers providing some assistance in the most extreme cases.

Institutions buying properties on this scale is new. AirBnB is new. Local economies where pricing has been settled for years if not decades, are being disrupted. 60% increases overnight are not normal, and have not been a common circumstance. As for protecting yourself, salaries in these areas and surrounding them isn't going up by 60% overnight, or likely within five or more years.

As an example, the average renter in London is paying 50% of their income in rent. In the fashionable parts, it's up to 80%.

Now, it's easy to say "well, they should move to where they can afford", but that's just brushing aside a bigger societal issue. That suggests, money rules above all else, and if it destroys communities, then oh well.

Still, we disagree - I think regulation around rentals needs to be tightened significantly.

Question - do you have any rental properties yourself?

 

[Cornhusker]

This may be an unpopular opinion.
We will always have poor people.
Many of the really poor can be helped by teaching them a better way to live.
As a for instance..... There is a woman in my home town who is poor, absolutely destitute to the point where she begs money and food on Facebook. The good people of the town bring her food and a bit of cash.
Here's the problem as I see it. She has 2 big dogs that eat about $100 worth of dog food a month.
She got her water turned off for non payment, but she paid her cable bill so she'd have TV. She also smokes a couple packs of cigarettes a day.
Those are just the things I know of.
Now, I don't want to be judgmental, but it seems to me she could help herself somewhat by getting her priorities in order.
I know it's not easy to stop smoking, but I did it, anybody can.
Drop the cable, there's $50
Try to stop smoking, there's well over $400
Dog food is $100
There's 3 things right there that would make a huge difference to her, and there's likely more things she could do to get back on her feet.
She does have a job at a convenience store.
I guess what I'm saying is that we will always have poor people, but I think with a little guidance, many could lead a better, more secure life.
I grew up poor, but we lived within our means, and we rarely had any extra, but we had enough.

 

[Aunt Bea]

Institutions buying properties on this scale is new. AirBnB is new. Local economies where pricing has been settled for years if not decades, are being disrupted. 60% increases overnight are not normal, and have not been a common circumstance. As for protecting yourself, salaries in these areas and surrounding them isn't going up by 60% overnight, or likely within five or more years.

As an example, the average renter in London is paying 50% of their income in rent. In the fashionable parts, it's up to 80%.

Now, it's easy to say "well, they should move to where they can afford", but that's just brushing aside a bigger societal issue. That suggests, money rules above all else, and if it destroys communities, then oh well.

Still, we disagree - I think regulation around rentals needs to be tightened significantly.

Question - do you have any rental properties yourself?

No, I don’t own any real estate other than what may be contained in mutual funds.

I would also add, I just signed a new lease for what will be my 15th year in the same apartment.

The new rent will be $1,140.00 and the current rent is $707.00, an increase of approximately 62%.

I don’t take it personally or blame the landlord for charging what the market will accept anymore than I blame the grocer or farmer for increasing the price of groceries.

 

[VaughanJB]

This may be an unpopular opinion.
We will always have poor people.
Many of the really poor can be helped by teaching them a better way to live.
As a for instance..... There is a woman in my home town who is poor, absolutely destitute to the point where she begs money and food on Facebook. The good people of the town bring her food and a bit of cash.
Here's the problem as I see it. She has 2 big dogs that eat about $100 worth of dog food a month.
She got her water turned off for non payment, but she paid her cable bill so she'd have TV. She also smokes a couple packs of cigarettes a day.
Those are just the things I know of.
Now, I don't want to be judgmental, but it seems to me she could help herself somewhat by getting her priorities in order.
I know it's not easy to stop smoking, but I did it, anybody can.
Drop the cable, there's $50
Try to stop smoking, there's well over $400
Dog food is $100
There's 3 things right there that would make a huge difference to her, and there's likely more things she could do to get back on her feet.
She does have a job at a convenience store.
I guess what I'm saying is that we will always have poor people, but I think with a little guidance, many could lead a better, more secure life.
I grew up poor, but we lived within our means, and we rarely had any extra, but we had enough.

I agree that the likes of cable TV has to go. As for smoking, it's a terrible addiction, and while a few can "just stop", others find it considerably harder. Still, cutting down with an eye on getting off them is surely an option in the short term.

But the dogs...... I can't go along with you on the dogs. Firstly, this person could make reductions of all kinds and live in an empty room with four channels of TV, no dogs, and no cigarettes. I get it, it can happen. But there comes a time when quality of life is important. That applies to both the more affluent, and the poor. I don't begrudge her the dogs, if the dogs mean she has something to live in her life. Just in terms of her mental health, they ought to pay dividends.

I think the difference between the poor of the past and some of the poor today is that the entire environment is different. So, if a faceless investment fund suddenly buys your property and raise the rent by 60% overnight - there's no planning for that.

 

[Aunt Bea]

This may be an unpopular opinion.
We will always have poor people.
Many of the really poor can be helped by teaching them a better way to live.
As a for instance..... There is a woman in my home town who is poor, absolutely destitute to the point where she begs money and food on Facebook. The good people of the town bring her food and a bit of cash.
Here's the problem as I see it. She has 2 big dogs that eat about $100 worth of dog food a month.
She got her water turned off for non payment, but she paid her cable bill so she'd have TV. She also smokes a couple packs of cigarettes a day.
Those are just the things I know of.
Now, I don't want to be judgmental, but it seems to me she could help herself somewhat by getting her priorities in order.
I know it's not easy to stop smoking, but I did it, anybody can.
Drop the cable, there's $50
Try to stop smoking, there's well over $400
Dog food is $100
There's 3 things right there that would make a huge difference to her, and there's likely more things she could do to get back on her feet.
She does have a job at a convenience store.
I guess what I'm saying is that we will always have poor people, but I think with a little guidance, many could lead a better, more secure life.
I grew up poor, but we lived within our means, and we rarely had any extra, but we had enough.

I understand what you are saying and making good choices is important.

I believe that people should be allowed to make their own choices and accept the consequences of their actions as long as those choices don’t impact others, especially children.

 

[VaughanJB]

I don’t take it personally or blame the landlord for charging what the market will accept anymore than I blame the grocer or farmer for increasing the price of groceries.

Thank you for your clarification.

I think you accept your rent increase because you can afford the new rate. Can't you see that some people couldn't?

But there's something else going on here. Neighborhoods are fundamental to our society, and without the expectation of having housing, we are allowing people to slip through the cracks. We're seeing this on streets around the world. Some tales are drug-addicted fools who mismanage everything, and now there are those who are your normal folk suddenly being hit by huge increases in housing costs. The question is - how much do we value communities? Communities are made up of people, are they simply fodder for landlords, or does community matter.

There are several parts of London that have been gentrified. The Docks was one from some time ago, and more recently The Elephant and the Castle was affected to. That is, working class neighborhoods of a century or more, are bought up by investment companies, and then gradually forced out as rents grow. From strictly a financial point of view, yeah - that's how financial growth works. But from a human standpoint it's a bit of a disgrace. These aren't numbers, they're real people.

 

[Aunt Bea]

Thank you for your clarification.

I think you accept your rent increase because you can afford the new rate. Can't you see that some people couldn't?

But there's something else going on here. Neighborhoods are fundamental to our society, and without the expectation of having housing, we are allowing people to slip through the cracks. We're seeing this on streets around the world. Some tales are drug-addicted fools who mismanage everything, and now there are those who are your normal folk suddenly being hit by huge increases in housing costs. The question is - how much do we value communities? Communities are made up of people, are they simply fodder for landlords, or does community matter.

There are several parts of London that have been gentrified. The Docks was one from some time ago, and more recently The Elephant and the Castle was affected to. That is, working class neighborhoods of a century or more, are bought up by investment companies, and then gradually forced out as rents grow. From strictly a financial point of view, yeah - that's how financial growth works. But from a human standpoint it's a bit of a disgrace. These aren't numbers, they're real people.

I could move but I‘ve chosen to stay mainly because in a year or two the other options open to me will increase their rents to meet the market.

We have similar extreme situations in the United States where solid middle class school teachers, firemen, etc… qualify for low income housing because the immediate area is so trendy. This situation may sound unfair but in reality it’s an additional tax on the beautiful people that enjoy the multimillion dollar properties.

I’m not sure that life was ever meant to be fair and my preference will always be to let the market sort things out and have the taxpayers provide assistance in the most extreme cases.

 

[VaughanJB]

I’m not sure that life was ever meant to be fair and my preference will always be to let the market sort things out and have the taxpayers provide assistance in the most extreme cases.

Trendy locations, sure - but when they're manufactured trendy with an intent to raise rental costs, that's a societal problem, imo.

I mean, what is "fair market value"? Taking that in isolation, that simply leads to an ever spiraling number that eventually drives people away. I could have an apartment that rents for $500. I raise the rent to $1000 and someone takes it - and that becomes the fair market value. Why? Because property prices are rising. But why are property prices constantly rising? In part because Investment Portfolio's are buying up swathes of land. Where does that leave the people living in these places now?

Rent increases are always a thing, but 60% increase?

The housing market, for me, isn't just a matter of price. We're seeing a breakdown in a society today, with working people having to sleep in their cars. We're seeing neighborhoods being ripped apart. We're seeing homeless everywhere. And that matters. It matters more than an investment portfolio.

As for tax payers providing assistance - all that means is that you and I, through our taxes, support these investment portfolios and what they do. The tax payer is in effect subsidizing their profits but dumping off the problem they cause to us. It's a crazy thing that's going on.

Still, I am glad you have managed to sign a new lease. I'm also pleased you can afford your raised rent. I've never read anyone quite as content to pay nearly $404 a month more than you did last month (and almost $5K a year), so fair play.