All Things Pagan Thread

[JustDave]

The immersive experience of becoming one with nature is like falling in love. There is a deep, intense fulfilling emotion that wells up inside of you, and you feel a rapture that nothing manmade can ever match. It is heaven on earth.

While I don't consider myself spiritual, I do have this feeling that pagan spirituality makes a kind of sense. It makes sense because I've always felt connected to nature, which plays a large part in pagan religion. I haven't taken the time to logically think it through and parse out the semantics of spirituality, if that is indeed necessary. But paganism as you describe it, makes sense because nature is real. It exists and I know I am connected to it, if only in a very small way, because nature is infinitely greater than me.

But I carry it no further. I've always respected Wicca, which is the only pagan religion I've been around, but even human nature cannot be restrained in Wicca, as it dilutes the connection we all share with nature by adding an unnecessary supernatural twist into the experience. I can get that "golly-gee" awe when I'm in nature that many people consider their spirituality without the vulgarity of the supernatural watering down the experience.

 

[officerripley]

Whether it classifies as pagan or not, may be subjective, but for me, it is Ecospirituality.
The best way I could describe it is the belief that nature is more than living things. It has a soul or an essence you can immerse yourself in and experience a euphoric uplifting beyond the physical benefits. The Archetypal Psychologists call this living Earth, the Anima Mundi, which means “soul of the world”.

It is a divine type of energy that, when the mind settles down to a meditative state, you can begin to merge with this life force and experience a spiritual connection. It radiates there, and you may not fully understand it, but it is the same energy that is within you and those energies can sync up and be in unison. It is more than just perceiving energy through the senses. It is a spiritual connection.

If you've watched the movie Avatar, and you understand the special connection the Navi had with nature, you will get it. There is a sense of presence and a deep awareness that it is sacred. This was understood by the native people who lived on this planet before we defiled it. It has always been here. We have just ignored it. The Native Americans understood that when the plants and trees breathe out, we breathe in their breath. We come from life, we consume life, and we return to life.

The immersive experience of becoming one with nature is like falling in love. There is a deep, intense fulfilling emotion that wells up inside of you, and you feel a rapture that nothing manmade can ever match. It is heaven on earth.

I wish I could feel the same way you do about nature and the planet we live on, sounds wonderful but I haven't had any success trying to feel that way. Even though I am an environmentalist, unfortunately I agree with what Neil DeGrasse Tyson when he said there's no way he could ever worship the earth and feel like it loves us since there are just as many things about this planet trying to kill us (earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, tornadoes, bacteria, the list goes on forever) as there are that "love us." This planet is just too scary a place for me. I envy you, though; more power to you.

 

[Medusa]

I've just finished the blinks on, The Hidden Life of Trees by Peter Volleben. Interesting, illuminating book.

 

[Medusa]

makes sense because nature is real. It exists and I know I am connected to it, if only in a very small way, because nature is infinitely greater than me.

This draws me as well; the reality of many things that fall within the Pagan umbrella. Nature is real, trees (I've just listened to a great book) are real. I enjoy the Solstices and Equinoxes because they are markers of events actually happening; there's no mysticism in them.

Not that I'm disparaging mysticism or those who are drawn there, but I do appreciate the reality of the position of the planet related to the sun and the changing seasons, the natural world and the ways we are connected to it.

 

[bobcat]

I wish I could feel the same way you do about nature and the planet we live on, sounds wonderful but I haven't had any success trying to feel that way. Even though I am an environmentalist, unfortunately I agree with what Neil DeGrasse Tyson when he said there's no way he could ever worship the earth and feel like it loves us since there are just as many things about this planet trying to kill us (earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, tornadoes, bacteria, the list goes on forever) as there are that "love us." This planet is just too scary a place for me. I envy you, though; more power to you.

Yes, I think those who are expecting love from nature are in for a disappointment, and missing the point.
Nature is an energy. It is alive and dynamic. There is a reason so many people love the outdoors (Hiking, biking, picnicking, camping, etc...). It is restorative, and invigorating. But in addition to that, when you immerse yourself in it, and merge with it, it reaches are part of you that is spiritual in essence. Music is similar. There is just listening to it, and then there is letting it soak into your soul. It can move you to tears at times.

Like deep meditation, it's not for everyone, so I understand. We're all different.

 

[JustDave]

unfortunately I agree with what Neil DeGrasse Tyson when he said there's no way he could ever worship the earth and feel like it loves us since there are just as many things about this planet trying to kill us (earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, tornadoes, bacteria, the list goes on forever) as there are that "love us." This planet is just too scary a place for me. I envy you, though; more power to you.

I don't consider my love for nature to be worship, certainly not in a Christian way. But I do respect its indifference to my well being, and there were times in my life where I have been very afraid way back in the woods. I've met bears face to face on the trail, watched a partner swept down a mountain side in an avalanche (he survived), run from an aggressive moose, and found myself on precarious ledges, where I wished I had not gone. It can be quite humbling at times.

 

[PeppermintPatty]

Paganism seems to honour Mother Nature which I very much do so I can relate to it.

 

[Mr. Ed]

So you would have no afterlife punishment worry by committing cold blooded murder, right?

First of all I believe people are accountable for their actions, secondly I would not commit cold blooded murder because I am accountable for everything I do.
if people are judged for bad doings in the afterlife which I do not believe in I suspect people who cause harm will be with people of like minds. good people will attract good people etc, same with liars and cheats.
Sin is a made up condition promoted by religion to maintain order and control over people who believe in such nonsense. Sin is regret and remorse over past, present and future thoughts and actions. It is spawned by faith otherwise sin does not exist unless you believe it to be real.

Why would there be punishment or reward for existing. It is not as though we have a choice in being born? Most people have a morale compass that they live by. Does this mean everyone acts according to their sense of morality? what is morally wrong and why is it wrong? Because society deems what is acceptable and what is not.

Look at incest, it is wrong because messing with family members is proven to cause birth defects. Royalty intermarried to preserve their precious bloodline, historically, the results were devastating. What about adults having sex with minors? Most societies consider this wrong and immoral, but not all societies see this as a problem and even encourage it.

The best way to live is make amends with the past, forgive yourself for wrongdoings and live life in a way that you have nothing to regret. You must be honest with yourself and behave yourself. Simple as that.

 

[Vida May]

Yep. Many Christmas traditions have their origins in Paganism. The tree, wreaths, mistletoe, gift giving.

Personally, I'm happy for anyone in however they choose to observe their holidays. If they're borrowing from Paganism, it doesn't worry me. Paganism is older so it would track that some of its rituals and traditions found their way into other religions.

For sure sacrificing animals to a god was almost universal back in the day.

The Easter egg and Bunny are from Egypt in the day of pharaohs.

I don't know if any religious traditions are not rooted in paganism. Christianity has swung from being inclusive and being exclusive and back again. One of the strongest conversion tools was giving pagan celebrations Christian interpretations.

Isis was the bread and water before Jesus became the bread and wine. Before something is accepted as truth, it has to be believable. Judaism and Christianity were not exactly new religions with an unbelievable god. Religions are gentle shifts in belief. The pagan Europeans before Christianity and the Mayan beliefs share much in common with Christianity, making conversion possible. Zoroastrianism divides good and evil and shares mythology with Christianity.

 

[officerripley]

Why would there be punishment or reward for existing. It is not as though we have a choice in being born? Most people have a morale compass that they live by. Does this mean everyone acts according to their sense of morality? what is morally wrong and why is it wrong? Because society deems what is acceptable and what is not.

Good points. The little that I've learned about societies who live with a "pagan" or "heathen" religion which is most common in hunter/gatherer (or nearly) type societies, is that those religions had deities (weather god/goddess, god/goddess of the hunt, etc.) you could pray to but when it came to matters of sin, morality, whatever you want to call how people should behave toward each other and the other animals, it was each tribe's chief or elders who determined that.

After agriculture when people began living apart from each other--"get off my farm; you go stay on your own place over there!"--it was harder to keep track of how people were behaving, so then it was considered necessary to invent a big, wrathful, strong, warlord, invisible, alpha (almost always male) god up in the sky who saw everything you did and would punish you for all eternity. I guess some saw it--still see it--as the only way to enforce good behavior.

 

[Mr. Ed]

I live the way I want my life be and knowing this is why I am happy. Anything other than happiness I know something is wrong and therefore need adjusting. Life is fluid, it flows if I am not riding the wave properly I need to rethink what I am doing to get the desired outcome.

 

[Mr. Ed]

What ever we do in life we formulate a desired outcome In which we live accordingly.

 

[Vida May]

"Paganism is an umbrella term for a variety of spiritual and faith-based practices that fall outside of mainstream religions."

Personally, I would not define myself as fitting within any particular branch of Pagansim, but simply "existing" within the world and appreciating the power of natural energies and nature itself.

If someone asked me to say "what type" of Pagan I am, I simply couldn't.

I observe the Equinoxes and Solstices, have an alter, occasionally sage my home or rooms of it, practice a ritual here and there as it suits my life, have a pretty pentagram made of ribbons and silks roses on my wall, and other things. I simply am and I do as I do.

I do not, however, have opinions or judgements about how other people navigate this life and seek to understand their place within it. If a person follows a religion and it brings them comfort and peace, helps them answer some questions, I'm happy for them and wish them good things.

What if they justify war with the belief God wills them to fight for Him? Billy Graham did a very compelling Christmas program assuring parents God wanted us to send our sons and daughters into the war started by the US invading Iraq. The US proudly called this war our Power and Glory.

I never talked religion because I was taught that is bad manners, but since the invasion of Iraq, I have decided that toleration of all religious beliefs is not the higher morality. You did say religion is okay if it brings people peace, but that is not always what religion does.

A pagan is a spirit having a human experience. The God of Abraham religions declare we are separate from the spirit, not part of it. As Egypt had a trinity of our spirit, religion gave us a trinity of God. Rome made that god our Father and the Greeks gave us an understanding of the trinity of that god. Before Rome accepted the Greek understanding of the trinity, Christians were killing each other over the argument of whether Jesus is God or the Son of God. That was a pretty strong intolerance of differences.

 

[ohioboy]

First of all I believe people are accountable for their actions, secondly I would not commit cold blooded murder because I am accountable for everything I do.
if people are judged for bad doings in the afterlife which I do not believe in I suspect people who cause harm will be with people of like minds. good people will attract good people etc, same with liars and cheats.
Sin is a made up condition promoted by religion to maintain order and control over people who believe in such nonsense. Sin is regret and remorse over past, present and future thoughts and actions. It is spawned by faith otherwise sin does not exist unless you believe it to be real.

First, I knew you would say you would never commit murder, but that was not the direct question. If you were evil enough to do so, then you of course have no fear of an afterlife punishment, which to me, as you say, is pure nonsense.

 

[Elsie]

I live the way I want my life be and knowing this is why I am happy. Anything other than happiness I know something is wrong and therefore need adjusting. Life is fluid, it flows if I am not riding the wave properly I need to rethink what I am doing to get the desired outcome.

And if you've left a harmful wake behind, does knowing this upset you?

 

[Elsie]

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I’m not shouting, “I’ve been saved!”
I’m whispering, “I get lost sometimes
That’s why I chose this way”

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I don’t speak with human pride
I’m confessing that I stumble –
needing God to be my guide

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I’m not trying to be strong
I’m professing that I’m weak
and pray for strength to carry on

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I’m not bragging of success
I’m admitting that I’ve failed
and cannot ever pay the debt

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I don’t think I know it all
I submit to my confusion
asking humbly to be taught

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I’m not claiming to be perfect
My flaws are far too visible
but God believes I’m worth it

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I still feel the sting of pain
I have my share of heartache
which is why I seek God’s name

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I do not wish to judge
I have no authority
I only know I’m loved

 

[Mr. Ed]

First, I knew you would say you would never commit murder, but that was not the direct question. If you were evil enough to do so, then you of course have no fear of an afterlife punishment, which to me, as you say, is pure nonsense.

I would be a different person with a different set of values. I can answer the question by what I know and understand therefore the question is not relevant to my understanding and cannot be answered in my present state of being.

 

[Mr. Ed]

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I’m not shouting, “I’ve been saved!”
I’m whispering, “I get lost sometimes
That’s why I chose this way”

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I don’t speak with human pride
I’m confessing that I stumble –
needing God to be my guide

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I’m not trying to be strong
I’m professing that I’m weak
and pray for strength to carry on

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I’m not bragging of success
I’m admitting that I’ve failed
and cannot ever pay the debt

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I don’t think I know it all
I submit to my confusion
asking humbly to be taught

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I’m not claiming to be perfect
My flaws are far too visible
but God believes I’m worth it

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I still feel the sting of pain
I have my share of heartache
which is why I seek God’s name

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I do not wish to judge
I have no authority
I only know I’m loved

If that’s the way feel, so be it. I don’t think that way because I am not a believer. If I were a believer it will be impossible for me to exactly as you do.

 

[Magna-Carta]

I wish I could feel the same way you do about nature and the planet we live on, sounds wonderful but I haven't had any success trying to feel that way. Even though I am an environmentalist, unfortunately I agree with what Neil DeGrasse Tyson when he said there's no way he could ever worship the earth and feel like it loves us since there are just as many things about this planet trying to kill us (earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, tornadoes, bacteria, the list goes on forever) as there are that "love us." This planet is just too scary a place for me. I envy you, though; more power to you.

For me, it’s not about worship. To my mind any type of 'worship' seems unhealthy to me. What I connect with is more about feeling part of something significant -- something I never consciously sought out. It’s more of a quiet personal feeling that comes over me when I engage with the environment around me. It’s not something I can easily put into words, but it’s become something personal and meaningful over time.

I don’t believe the world around me has mystical powers, but when I’m far from cities and towns, I do feel a sense of belonging, a connection to something significantly larger. If whatever it is that I feel in those moments helps keep me to remain grounded and sane, then I don’t see any harm in it.

I do wonder, though, how some people manage to get through life without feeling connected to anything. It makes me think that perhaps some are missing out on something, even if that something is something they’ve created for themselves on a personal level.

 

[Vida May]

First, I knew you would say you would never commit murder, but that was not the direct question. If you were evil enough to do so, then you of course have no fear of an afterlife punishment, which to me, as you say, is pure nonsense.

I have walked through hell, and it was not my fault. I had to decide if Satan is real or not. If he was real, he possessed me and his will was stronger than my self-will. I decided he is not real, and no matter what, I am responsible for what I do. From there I clawed my way out of hell and I am very glad I walk the path @Mr. Ed follows. In the not so distant past, preachers pushed fear of Satan more than they do today. I think believing in Satan and demons is harmful and the Christian story does not work without the dark side.

 

[ohioboy]

I have walked through hell, and it was not my fault. I had to decide if Satan is real or not. If he was real, he possessed me and his will was stronger than my self-will. I decided he is not real, and no matter what, I am responsible for what I do. From there I clawed my way out of hell and I am very glad I walk the path @Mr. Ed follows. In the not so distant past, preachers pushed fear of Satan more than they do today. I think believing in Satan and demons is harmful and the Christian story does not work without the dark side.

Have you ever heard of Pascals Wager. Read about it and give me your thoughts.

 

[Vida May]

First, I knew you would say you would never commit murder, but that was not the direct question. If you were evil enough to do so, then you of course have no fear of an afterlife punishment, which to me, as you say, is pure nonsense.

Hum how does the after life work? Will we lose our free will? Will bigots and racists magically become better people and start treating others decently? If so, how does that jive with having free will?

 

[Paco Dennis]

I have walked through hell, and it was not my fault. I had to decide if Satan is real or not. If he was real, he possessed me and his will was stronger than my self-will. I decided he is not real, and no matter what, I am responsible for what I do. From there I clawed my way out of hell and I am very glad I walk the path @Mr. Ed follows. In the not so distant past, preachers pushed fear of Satan more than they do today. I think believing in Satan and demons is harmful and the Christian story does not work without the dark side.

Your right. Christianity equates Satan and pagans.

is there a connection between demon possession and pagan beliefs?

There is a historical and conceptual connection between demon possession and pagan beliefs, particularly as interpreted through the lens of Christian theology and cultural interactions.

1. **Christian Perspective on Pagan Gods**: Early Christian thought often equated pagan gods with demons. This view is rooted in biblical passages like Psalms 95:5, which states, "For all the gods of the Gentiles are demons," and was reinforced by early Church Fathers like Tertullian, who argued that pagan deities were false gods or demonic entities[1][3][5].

2. **Possession in Pagan Contexts**: In many ancient pagan cultures, spirit possession was a recognized phenomenon. For example, Mesopotamian ašipu (spiritual healers) performed rituals to expel malevolent spirits, while in Greek traditions, *daimons* could be either benevolent or malevolent supernatural forces[2][7]. Some forms of possession were even seen as divine communication rather than demonic affliction.

3. **Exorcism Across Traditions**: Both pagan and Christian traditions developed practices to address possession. Pagan exorcisms often involved rituals, incantations, or offerings to appease spirits, whereas Christian exorcism emphasized invoking the name of Jesus to cast out demons[5][7].

4. **Transformation of Beliefs**: With the rise of Christianity, pagan practices were increasingly demonized. Exorcism became a tool not only to combat perceived spiritual threats but also to assert the superiority of Christian faith over pagan religions[2][5].

While both traditions address possession and spiritual entities, their interpretations differ significantly based on theological frameworks.

Citations:
[1] Do we believe that pagan gods are demons, or that they are ... - Reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/1d3qxj8

[2] Catholic exorcisms are real—and they have an ancient history https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/ancient-origins-of-catholic-exorcism
[3] CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Demonic Possession - New Advent https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12315a.htm
[4] Spirit possession - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_possession
[5] Possession and Exorcism in the Literature of the Ancient Church ... https://lausanne.org/content/historical-overview-1
[6] Exorcism in paganism? - Reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/pagan/comments/bjt1ri

[7] Exorcism - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorcism
[8] Do Demons Exist? : r/pagan - Reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/pagan/comments/q039oj

 

[Magna-Carta]

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I’m not shouting, “I’ve been saved!”
I’m whispering, “I get lost sometimes
That’s why I chose this way”

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I don’t speak with human pride
I’m confessing that I stumble –
needing God to be my guide

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I’m not trying to be strong
I’m professing that I’m weak
and pray for strength to carry on

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I’m not bragging of success
I’m admitting that I’ve failed
and cannot ever pay the debt

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I don’t think I know it all
I submit to my confusion
asking humbly to be taught

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I’m not claiming to be perfect
My flaws are far too visible
but God believes I’m worth it

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I still feel the sting of pain
I have my share of heartache
which is why I seek God’s name

When I say, “I am a Christian”
I do not wish to judge
I have no authority
I only know I’m loved

I’m curious as to how this poem (by Carol Wimmer?) connects to the discussion of Paganism, in a thread titled, "All Things Pagan Thread" . At the moment, It feels a little out of place.

For clarity, is there a broader point you’re making about spirituality in a pre Christian era that I’m not seeing?" Within a thread that seems to have been created to discuss and share what we might know about the subject in the title.

 

[Mr. Ed]

Hum how does the after life work? Will we lose our free will? Will bigots and racists magically become better people and start treating others decently? If so, how does that jive with having free will?

I don’t know if there is an afterlife