Discussion: Evolution reversus Creationism

[David777]

Even those still pushing Young Earth Creationism, YEC, know they won't have much of a following from younger generations and instead do so just to keep older already committed folks in their camp with their usual arguments.

Those against Judeo-Christian religions tend to frame their arguments against YECs, and not the majority of followers that have long moderated their religious views, like Catholics. It really serves little purpose to bother seriously arguing about YEC, especially on a public web board like this, because the science against those views has for decades been so overwhelming.

What one can readily argue is:

• Whether what humans call god is an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent entity or one though powerful has limitations, as I do. Thus no magic, god can do anything, that I feel is logical nonsense and for which only arose during the Middle Ages with philosophers that changed what other ancient civilizations felt about their gods into an entity without limits.
• Bible inerrancy promoted by many denomination authorities is wrong that even most religious scholars obviously never believed in.

So yes this person, leans towards the existence of ancient Ultimate Intelligent Entities, others refer to as "god". Interestingly a new UAP/UFO film is out "The Age of Disclosure", that many expect will finally expose decades of US military warmonger coverups and shield paranoid Pentagon and government types that have lied and manipulated the rest of us for so long.

 

[David777]

Coincidentally with this topic, I just Amazon ordered the following 2023 book

Understanding Living Systems (Understanding Life)

by Raymond and Denis Noble for $21 including tax and shipping. Normally I wait till science books have been out a few years to pick them up cheaply use, however want to get on top of this subject quickly.

https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Living-Systems-Life/dp/1009277367/ref=sr_1_1

Although I generally agree with Darwin's primary evolutionary natural selection and survival of the fittest ideas, I as someone that has only casually studied these subjects over years, find that sole explanation unconvincing as species seem to be able to evolve much faster than mere random gene changes might provide. So have been wondering how creatures might additionally effect their DNA genome in ways that pass genetic information along to succeeding generations.

In fact, Darwin himself expected there was more but other scientists later buried such ideas. So was recently surprised to find there has been real progress in that field quietly moving towards a better more logical approach. This all goes along with my ideas that we become what we make ourselves to be that is not solely determined when sperm and eggs combine. This began after ideas of gene expression through changing environmental factors, made huge advances in recent decades. But there had to be more. I expect this book will bring the way evolution really works into a paradigm science change.

This 88 year old Brit, Denis Noble, still has a very keen mind with a superb command of language, one might listen to in this YouTube interview:

 

[smiley]

the whole planet is made male and female - haven't you noticed?

 

[Mr. Ed]

Aren't we suppose to suddenly believe in Jesus as the end of life approaches?

Maybe you are supposed to believe in Jesus, but that is not true for everyone.

 

[Mr. Ed]

It never takes you long to insult believers based on your own very limited experience with one fundamentalist church.

I am a Christian who has attended at least a dozen different churches and none of them have preached creationism as inerrant, literal fact.

There are two creation stories in Genesis both based on the word of mouth legends of the time and if you read them as "day' meaning era as we now would say "back in my grandpa's day" those stories are amazingly close to what we know as the order of evolution today through science.

There never has been any reason for Christianity and science to be at odds.

There is no basis for faith other than the belief that something exist purely because you believe it to be so. I abstain from discussing how the world and life began simply because I do not know. However, I do not believe the world and life began as the result of the christian god or any other god for that matter.
God is manifestation of the brain, feelings of connectedness, love, oneness and being are available to anyone without the rigors of religious practices. Religion has ruined the aspect of a godliness understanding by omitting the fact that god or the character of god lives within everyone with the ability to forgive oneself and staying true to ones own ability to be pure and good according to individual character.

When a person lives outside or one's true character, for me that would be lying, cheating, self-serving, vanity, without love or living with psychological baggage would create chaos and I could not live like that.

Religion teaches humans are scum and worthless without their rules and regulations for closer obedience to their appointed god. It doesn't have to be like that, if you are pure in heart and completely honest with yourself, you may find the notion of god within you without religion.

All you need is love. Why is everlasting unconditional love so difficult for some people to attain? Nothing is more simple and direct as love, but some people have a real problem with that?

 

[Mr. Ed]

the whole planet is made male and female - haven't you noticed?

I concentrate on the female species however, when the male shows up I head out the back door.

 

[Della]

There is no basis for faith other than the belief that something exist purely because you believe it to be so. I abstain from discussing how the world and life began simply because I do not know. However, I do not believe the world and life began as the result of the christian god or any other god for that matter.
God is manifestation of the brain, feelings of connectedness, love, oneness and being are available to anyone without the rigors of religious practices. Religion has ruined the aspect of a godliness understanding by omitting the fact that god or the character of god lives within everyone with the ability to forgive oneself and staying true to ones own ability to be pure and good according to individual character.

When a person lives outside or one's true character, for me that would be lying, cheating, self-serving, vanity, without love or living with psychological baggage would create chaos and I could not live like that.

Religion teaches humans are scum and worthless without their rules and regulations for closer obedience to their appointed god. It doesn't have to be like that, if you are pure in heart and completely honest with yourself, you may find the notion of god within you without religion.

All you need is love. Why is everlasting unconditional love so difficult for some people to attain? Nothing is more simple and direct as love, but some people have a real problem with that?

Why do you believe in love when science can't prove it?

Religion has ruined the aspect of a godliness understanding by omitting the fact that god or the character of god lives within everyone with the ability to forgive oneself and staying true to ones own ability to be pure and good according to individual character.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him.
What does that say if not that Jesus was always with God and that he made us and was always in us? God is love!
Jesus' main message was love, his Golden Rule was to love each other. He said the greatest of the virtues was love. His sermon on the mountain was about love -- why would you think Christianity separates from love?

I understand that you don't like organized religion and don't think you need it and maybe you don't, but there are some of us who like going to church and like being reminded of the things Jesus taught us about loving each other. Maybe we need sermons explaining how to better treat others.

You mention forgiving ourselves. It's not that easy for everyone, some people need years of therapy to forgive themselves and some people need Sunday reminders to help them with it. How is any of that hurting you that you need to rail against it every few days?

 

[Mr. Ed]

Why do you believe in love when science can't prove it?


John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him.
What does that say if not that Jesus was always with God and that he made us and was always in us? God is love!
Jesus' main message was love, his Golden Rule was to love each other. He said the greatest of the virtues was love. His sermon on the mountain was about love -- why would you think Christianity separates from love?

I understand that you don't like organized religion and don't think you need it and maybe you don't, but there are some of us who like going to church and like being reminded of the things Jesus taught us about loving each other. Maybe we need sermons explaining how to better treat others.

You mention forgiving ourselves. It's not that easy for everyone, some people need years of therapy to forgive themselves and some people need Sunday reminders to help them with it. How is any of that hurting you that you need to rail against it every few days?

All of these things are fine if they help you be what you want to be, but they are not necessary although religion will tell you differently. Religion is more about man's desire for control and conformity than about god.

Can you imagine if humans tapped into their resource of understanding without the fear of godly retribution, recourse and rejection to learn we are on our own and have always been on our own. Divine intervention are products of our own doing and not that of god. Being accountable is equal to taking credit for one's own action. Granted it is easier to believe god is in control because that is what society tells us to believe, but society is wrong and the sooner we realize this the less likely we will be governed by society.

 

[Della]

All of these things are fine if they help you be what you want to be, but they are not necessary although religion will tell you differently. Religion is more about man's desire for control and conformity than about god.

Can you imagine if humans tapped into their resource of understanding without the fear of godly retribution, recourse and rejection to learn we are on our own and have always been on our own. Divine intervention are products of our own doing and not that of god. Being accountable is equal to taking credit for one's own action. Granted it is easier to believe god is in control because that is what society tells us to believe, but society is wrong and the sooner we realize this the less likely we will be governed by society.

I don't have to imagine it, I watch Dateline. I see people murder their spouses because they love someone else and believe they have the right to do it so they can be together. I hear men say they beat their wives or stalk their girlfriends because they love them so much. I hear pedophiles talk about how much they love children. Maybe some people need those rules and controls or at least a fear of human retribution.

They've all tapped into their own resource of understanding.

 

[Mr. Ed]

I don't have to imagine it, I watch Dateline. I see people murder their spouses because they love someone else and believe they have the right to do it so they can be together. I hear men say they beat their wives or stalk their girlfriends because they love them so much. I hear pedophiles talk about how much they love children. Maybe some people need those rules and controls or at least a fear of human retribution.

They've all tapped into their own resource of understanding.

Obviously you see the world different than I do.

 

[Della]

Obviously you see the world different than I do.

You're right Ed and I usually remember that and don't try to argue with you.

I agree with you on one big thing: "All we need is love."

I just don't have as much faith as you do that we can all know what it is and tap into it with ease. I think some people, through life experience or accident, might have trouble telling what love really is, or telling right from wrong, and they need help with that. What you would call rules.

 

[Lewkat]

There are sea creatures of ancient times still plying certain oceans. They have mammal, reptile, and all manner of molecules in them. Star dust, of which every element is found in the human body, manages to float through our atmosphere. Beached mammal fish meets stardust, in earth's soil which contains carbon, the building blocks of the human. Voilà. Simple enough? One might ask, "just what are we?" It, of course, is far more intricate than what I just wrote, and I do think a fair amount of faith in creationism is in order here as well. But, in the long run, does it all really matter?

 

[Mr. Ed]

You're right Ed and I usually remember that and don't try to argue with you.

I agree with you on one big thing: "All we need is love."

I just don't have as much faith as you do that we can all know what it is and tap into it with ease. I think some people, through life experience or accident, might have trouble telling what love really is, or telling right from wrong, and they need help with that. What you would call rules.

I forget how truly hard my life has been. In the past when life was dark and full of confusion I paid it no heed and pushed forward. I failed to acknowledge my life was any different than another so just kept going.

I have lost my mind to psychosis three times, wiping away my memory as if never existed. Starting over from scratch gave me an opportunity to pick and choose the person I wanted to be. People don’t usually get 3 chances in life to design their personality and character.

Life is hard even for the privileged, but most people take life in stride without questioning why. I understand life different than most people, life is important yet it is not as important as it is perceived to be by most folks. People and events are actors and actresses playing on a stage and events are merely stage props.

Life is not serious, I am a spectator and a player by the choices I make. I see people acting their parts in life, I am detached from their drama and at the same time I am a contributor to the play.

I am and everyone else is also, but they are too busy and caught up in the drama of life to understand basic reality. Reality is like math, it has no emotion or feelings, it is truth without the bullshit. Most people are consumed by emotions and feelings that have nothing to do with reality but is needed as a cushion because reality is cold and unforgiving.

Understanding reality makes life hard and cold hearted, it is not about a redeeming savior who makes everything hunky dory based on your belief. Christianity gets away with unrealistic stories statements and events designed to comfort and console believers who take the written text as god‘s word that by faith is literally true.

God is the reality of the believing mind, and until the mind is convinced otherwise god will be everything you believe about god. Question everything, you may be surprised by what you learn.

 

[Mr. Ed]

Reality is far too dangerous and foreboding than humans are equipped to understand. Total reality would dispel the fundamentals of life as we know it to be. Perhaps death will provide the lack of feelings and emotions to see reality as it truly is. I think death is the rite of passage into a state of being unlike the living but familiar because the end may be beginning of the circle.

I don’t know?

 

[Della]

@Mr. Ed , I'm watching a 4 part mini-series on Tubi right now. It's based on a Kate Atkinson book called "Life After Life."

It follows the life of a family, starting in 1910. In it, the girl of the family has a rare ability to restart her, or sometimes a family member's, life, correcting or avoiding mistakes. I'm loving the series.

In it she talks of "the end being the beginning of the circle." You might like it!


https://tubitv.com/tv-shows/200168237/s01-e01-episode-1