Philadelphia woman stabbed 20 times from behind but her death still ruled a suicide

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A Philadelphia woman's 2011 death was ruled a suicide for the second time even after being stabbed 20 times from behind. Included stab wounds to the back of the head and neck. Authorities admitted the pattern of wounds unusual but still ruled her death a suicide.

Their family had to fight for their daughters case to get a second look.

Ellen Greenberg, Stabbed From Behind, Died by Suicide, Officials Re-Confirm

They need a second look from a third party not another person from the same city/office.
 

How did they explain it? I didn’t read any given conclusions as to how this happened. I guess it’s possible for a person to reach around their back and continue stabbing themself until they bled out, but the pain would be tremendous.

I would like to see Dr. Michael Baden or Dr. Thomas Noguchi do the autopsy. If I was a family member, I would pay for either one of these Medical Examiners to perform an autopsy.

I understand there was other trauma on the woman’s body.
 
911 said:
How did they explain it? I didn’t read any given conclusions as to how this happened. I guess it’s possible for a person to reach around their back and continue stabbing themself until they bled out, but the pain would be tremendous.

I would like to see Dr. Michael Baden or Dr. Thomas Noguchi do the autopsy. If I was a family member, I would pay for either one of these Medical Examiners to perform an autopsy.

I understand there was other trauma on the woman’s body.
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Even if it were a possibility that someone could stab themselves in the back more than once... not only pain but the fact they're bleeding out, would mean they just wouldn't have the strength to plunge a knife in repeatedly...
 

hollydolly said:
Even if it were a possibility that someone could stab themselves in the back more than once... not only pain but the fact they're bleeding out, would mean they just wouldn't have the strength to plunge a knife in repeatedly...
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Holly: I don’t disagree with you, but when a person bleeds out, it can be rapidly, like from a gunshot wound, or slowly, like from a knife wound that isn’t too deep or doesn’t cut any arteries. Even though blood vessels flow through some arteries, blood vessels by themselves would be a much slower bleed out.

We just had an area policeman get shot in the upper part of his leg and cut the femoral artery. He bled out in just minutes. Had he be hit outside of that artery and only hit some blood vessels, he probably would have survived, but a tourniquet would have improved his chances. I have seen people that were stabbed in the abdomen and survive and then again, I have seen people that were stabbed in the abdomen and die.

I am sure we have at least 1 nurse on this forum that would be able to explain it better. Believe me, I am no Hematologist.

Bottom line to this death is that I really need an explanation as to how the victim stabbed themself in the back 20 times.
Possible-Yes, Probable-Unlikely.
 
911 said:
Bottom line to this death is that I really need an explanation as to how the victim stabbed themself in the back 20 times.
Possible-Yes, Probable-Unlikely.
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I'm still going with the "knife board" scenario. I've seen them... not used for this purpose, of course, but it would take only one backward lunge. This was ruled suicide twice and there are facts that are not in the public record, so until I hear a better possibility, it's the only way I can think of that would allow it to happen.
 
CallMeKate said:
I'm still going with the "knife board" scenario. I've seen them... not used for this purpose, of course, but it would take only one backward lunge. This was ruled suicide twice and there are facts that are not in the public record, so until I hear a better possibility, it's the only way I can think of that would allow it to happen.
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If a knife board was used, why not say it?
 
911 said:
If a knife board was used, why not say it?
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I know... all I can find is that they had information that wasn't released to the public. Oh, and something... heck, what was it? It sounded strange... something like the knife wounds seemed to "show hesitation"... would that be a correct term? Maybe not as deep of a wound as if someone else had done it? But you're right... if they'd found a board, you'd think someone would have blabbed by now.
 
Greenberg's body was discovered by her fiancé, Samuel Goldberg, who returned from a gym to find their apartment door secured with a swing latch, and knocked it down after unsuccessfully trying to reach her. Goldberg subsequently called 911 . . ."

After Goldberg broke the door down, how could anyone reliably confirm that it was"secured with a swing latch" [from the inside] at the time he arrived?

Wikipedia footnote 14 references the news source that reports this: "The apartment was cleaned and sanitized the next day — before detectives and their forensics team secured a search warrant and returned there on Jan. 28." . . . after the apartment management and Sam Goldberg's father, Richard, each called police on Jan. 27 asking for instructions on how to go about cleaning the bloodied apartment."

It helps to have connections in the right places. - - - "In 2019, a spokesperson for [Josh] Shapiro stated that computer searches made on Ellen's computer pointed toward Greenberg's death being a suicide and that the investigation had been closed." [Found within the provided link above.]
 
Quote from article text.
"she'd been stabbed 20 times in the back of her neck and head, with a knife protruding from her chest. Her death was initially ruled a homicide ."

Not much in the way of info. How deep were the 20? Any penetration of the skin could be considered a stab wound. How far into her chest? Any history of mental instability? Was analgesia a factor?

Interesting that the scene was cleaned before a complete investigation was done.
 
911 said:
Bottom line to this death is that I really need an explanation as to how the victim stabbed themself in the back 20 times.
Possible-Yes, Probable-Unlikely.
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Not possible unless she was insane. An insane person could pull it off. A person experiencing a severe psychotic episode could. Someone with severe mental retardation could, too, if they were physically able and cognitive enough to be triggered.

This lady wasn't any of that, and there's nothing in that letter (which she probably did not write) to indicate that she was depressed to the point of insanity.
 
Knight said:
Quote from article text.
"she'd been stabbed 20 times in the back of her neck and head, with a knife protruding from her chest. Her death was initially ruled a homicide ."

Not much in the way of info. How deep were the 20? Any penetration of the skin could be considered a stab wound. How far into her chest? Any history of mental instability? Was analgesia a factor?

Interesting that the scene was cleaned before a complete investigation was done.
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..and did they mean protruding from her chest at the front of her body ?.. in which case it would take tremendous strength to insert the knife into the back for it to protrude out the front of the chest
 
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MACKTEXAS said:
It helps to have connections in the right places. - - - "In 2019, a spokesperson for [Josh] Shapiro stated that computer searches made on Ellen's computer pointed toward Greenberg's death being a suicide and that the investigation had been closed." [Found within the provided link above.]
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I don't normally quote my own posts, but I want to go back to the part in bold. That's the flimsiest excuse I've ever heard. Greenberg and Goldberg shared living quarters. Either one of them could have done those computer searches.
 
"Simon’s [Author of the MEO report] conclusion stands in direct opposition to the recent opinion of Dr. Marlon Osbourne, the very pathologist who performed Ellen’s autopsy in 2011. Earlier this year, Osbourne signed a sworn statement saying her death “should be designated as something other than suicide.”

Forensic psychiatrist Dr. Carole Lieberman, who has closely followed the case, said the city’s renewed suicide ruling defies both science and common sense.

“It continues to be a travesty of justice, a cover up for someone with alot of influence — either because of money, position or friends in high places,” Lieberman told TheIndependent."

"Simon’s findings also run contrary to the opinions of five of seven forensic experts whose reports she reviewed – most of whom concluded the death was indicative of homicide or “not biomechanically consistent with suicide.”

Above from Yahoo News 10/14/25
 
is it any wonder that people have lost or are losing trust in any situation. common sense raises too many questions the fact scene cleaner immediately says a lot.
 
MACKTEXAS said:
"Simon’s [Author of the MEO report] conclusion stands in direct opposition to the recent opinion of Dr. Marlon Osbourne, the very pathologist who performed Ellen’s autopsy in 2011. Earlier this year, Osbourne signed a sworn statement saying her death “should be designated as something other than suicide.”

Forensic psychiatrist Dr. Carole Lieberman, who has closely followed the case, said the city’s renewed suicide ruling defies both science and common sense.

“It continues to be a travesty of justice, a cover up for someone with alot of influence — either because of money, position or friends in high places,” Lieberman told TheIndependent."

"Simon’s findings also run contrary to the opinions of five of seven forensic experts whose reports she reviewed – most of whom concluded the death was indicative of homicide or “not biomechanically consistent with suicide.”

Above from Yahoo News 10/14/25
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First question is, why didn’t Osborne sign an affidavit and not a sworn statement? An affidavit has more teeth in court than a sworn statement, but no matter what, it’s my belief that the report is only exculpatory evidence and “proves” nothing.

Using the word “biomechanically” in this instance would be defined as “Physically Impossible.” (IMO)

Continuing on, this is why I suggested that an IME should be performed via an autopsy. Either of the 2 ME’s that I mentioned in Post 2 would be suitable. It’s important to get this right. If it’s a homicide, then someone needs to be held accountable. If it is “proven” to be suicide, then so-be-it. If the county refuses to pay for an IME, it may be most important for the family to pay the charges.

If the autopsy doesn’t prove either a homicide or a suicide as a manner of death, then it would be stated as “undetermined” and that wouldn’t satisfy either side. The manner of death must be proven.
 
911 said:
First question is, (1) why didn’t Osborne sign an affidavit and not a sworn statement? An affidavit has more teeth in court than a sworn statement, but no matter what, it’s my belief that the report is only exculpatory evidence and “proves” nothing.

(2) Using the word “biomechanically” in this instance would be defined as “Physically Impossible.” (IMO)

Continuing on, this is why I suggested that an IME should be performed via an autopsy. Either of the 2 ME’s that I mentioned in Post 2 would be suitable. It’s important to get this right. If it’s a homicide, then someone needs to be held accountable. If it is “proven” to be suicide, then so-be-it. If the county refuses to pay for an IME, it may be most important for the family to pay the charges.

If the autopsy doesn’t prove either a homicide or a suicide as a manner of death, then it would be stated as “undetermined” and that wouldn’t satisfy either side. The manner of death must be proven.
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(1) Good question that I haven't seen an explanation for.

(2) The term "biomechanically" in this context (one's physical capability of carrying out such an action) was used by 5 of 7 forensic experts, but unless I missed it, I did not find that exact terminology in the Lindsay Simon report. [Even if it was otherwise stated there, that won't change the rest of my post below.]

A review of old findings shouldn't carry much weight. A new IME might, as suggested in your closing paragraph.

In the meanwhile, my feelings are that suicide by the means it is described in this case seems completely preposterous. Research indicates that people considering suicide most often seek methods they believe will be quick and painless.

[This post was edited to correct error in paragraph with green lettering and re-write as intended.]
 
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