Evidence of the Afterlife - Scientific Research

Keesha

Keesha

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The topic was brought up today in another thread but I figured it deserved it’s very own , so this thread is about ‘near death experiences’ and the ‘afterlife.’


https://skeptiko.com/94-jeffrey-long-near-death-experience-research/


Dr. Long is one of the most qualified near death experience researchers and has documented information from over 1,300 patients who have had near death experiences , making it the largest scientific study ever done on the subject. He’s written a book called “Evidence of the Afterlife.”

What are your thoughts on the subject?
 

First off, I do not think we will ever have definitive scientific proof or disproof of an afterlife because of the nature of the beast -- i.e., having been truly, finally, dead and coming back.

My personal belief is that probably most near death experiences are just that -- "near" death, not irretrievably dead, or what my nurse neighbor calls "warm and dead." IMHO, most of the near death experience stuff is probably the result of the brain's shutting down of processes as part of the overall process of dying and the reason the experience may be similar in many instances is because the brain's shutting down causes similar experiences in many of us, in the same way as a blow to the head or nerve damage in the same region causes similar effects in most people.

AND, I also do not feel that even if my opinion is true, that does not prove there is not life after death. I just do not feel that we have objective proof of it either way and we probably never will.
 
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As long as it is a "near death" experience... it is not evidence of what happens after death.

Dying is a process. It is not unusual for the brain to transmit images real or imaginary during that process.

In the Bible, the dead are often referred to as being "asleep" and no longer conscious. The only Biblical hope of an afterlife is in the resurrection of the dead.
 

I believe that when you die you are just plain dead until the resurrection/final judgment/final hour if and when it comes.

“Our dead are never dead to us until we have forgotten them: they can be injured by us, they can be wounded; they
know all our penitence, all our aching sense that their place is empty, all the kisses we bestow on the smallest relic of their presence.” - George Eliot
 
Butterfly, you have summarized my opinion on this perfectly. If people claim that something is true (but unprovable), based on anecdotal accounts, and someone else claims that there is no reason to believe something with
a complete lack of evidence other than people's stories of what they think they saw when in a semi-conscious state, well then, who is right?

I go with the idea that the burden of proof is on the person making the assertion, not the person questioning it. If someone says, "I nearly died, and I saw the tooth fairy waiting for me in a beautiful place," they obviously cannot prove that, so why believe it? They may honestly think they "saw" something, but I believe it is the human mind playing its usual tricks as we lose consciousness. Maybe it's a natural kind of anesthetic that our brain supplies as we are about to die, to lull us into a kind of peace.
 
Keesha said:
The topic was brought up today in another thread but I figured it deserved it’s very own , so this thread is about ‘near death experiences’ and the ‘afterlife.’


https://skeptiko.com/94-jeffrey-long-near-death-experience-research/


Dr. Long is one of the most qualified near death experience researchers and has documented information from over 1,300 patients who have had near death experiences , making it the largest scientific study ever done on the subject. He’s written a book called “Evidence of the Afterlife.”

What are your thoughts on the subject?
Click to expand...

I read this when it was first published in 2010. It's a fascinating, well researched book that details stories of near death experiences from around the globe. He includes people of all ages - including small children, of various religions, and all levels of religiosity from atheists on up. Their experiences were strikingly similar, nearly always extraordinarily positive, and quite heartening to read.
 
Sunny said:
Butterfly, you have summarized my opinion on this perfectly. If people claim that something is true (but unprovable), based on anecdotal accounts, and someone else claims that there is no reason to believe something with
a complete lack of evidence other than people's stories of what they think they saw when in a semi-conscious state, well then, who is right?

I go with the idea that the burden of proof is on the person making the assertion, not the person questioning it. If someone says, "I nearly died, and I saw the tooth fairy waiting for me in a beautiful place," they obviously cannot prove that, so why believe it? They may honestly think they "saw" something, but I believe it is the human mind playing its usual tricks as we lose consciousness. Maybe it's a natural kind of anesthetic that our brain supplies as we are about to die, to lull us into a kind of peace.
Click to expand...

It's as same as a dream only the difference is we all dream. We can tell what our dreams were but we can't record them.

So it's a question of trust.
 
Camper6 said:
It's as same as a dream only the difference is we all dream. We can tell what our dreams were but we can't record them.

So it's a question of trust.
Click to expand...

But if someone doesn’t remember any of their dreams, to THAT person, dreaming doesn’t exist and is merely a figment of the imagination.
Are dreams real?
 
If this is a case of side effects from the brain shutting down then we could conclude that the brain works far better when it’s damaged and malfunctioning.
If 98% of the subjects tested could recall events that happened around them with perfect accuracy, including observing things that happened around them which would be impossible for them to be aware of without use of any sensory function from the physical body, then can’t we conclude that there is something going on that we just don’t know enough about?


According to Dr. Jeffery Long, its been concluded that people see visions due to REM - rapid eye movement .
Apparently after the heart stops the eyes and brain keep functioning for a short time and whatever visions appear are due to REM yet subjects who were totally blind had the exact same experiences. If they had no vision to begin with then how does this happen?


When people go into cardiac arrest, blood to the brain instantly stops and unconsciousness occurs. Within 10 to 20 seconds of that, the brain flat lines; meaning there is no brain activity. During this time period it is impossible to have an organized conscious experience yet people do and with complete accuracy , not dream-like hallucinations.The people that went into cardiac arrest that didn’t have NDE had recollections that were completely inaccurate.


The explanation of how consciousness works while under anesthesia is fascinating . Apparently the reason why we are given ventilated oxygen is because the brain is so shut down it doesn’t know enough to breathe on it’s own or the body would otherwise die.


Electroencephalogram measurements - a system used to measure brain activity show complete disorganization when under general anesthesia and we apparently can’t dream in this state.
Many people in this state have out of body near death experiences. If there is such little brain activity, then how can these people recall with complete accuracy what has taken place while they were under?


For myself, this is compelling evidence that mind and consciousness cannot be reduced to brain activity. This book shares first hand accounts of people who have DIED and lived to tell about it. The research is done at The Near Death Experience Research Foundation.


Dr. Jeffery Long M.D., is a radiation oncologist in Louisiana and has appeared on NBC’s Today’s Show, ABC’s World News Tonight with Peter Jennings, FOX’s The O’Reilly Factor, and The Learning Channel.


He has served on the board of directors for the International Association for Near Death Studies and established the non profit Near Death Experience Foundation and the NDERF website which has documented accounts of over 1,600 NDE’s.


Dr. Jeffery Long has written several books including Evidence of the Afterlife and God and the Afterlife.


**********************


I personally find this very interesting information but I’ve always been fascinated with different states of consciousness like dreaming, being under general anesthetic, comas, blacking out, hypnosis etc.,


What I find most surprising is why these topics make some people angry / or uncomfortable?


Is it because it’s discussing the unknown or because it challenges their belief system?


I’m not trying to convert anyone here or change anyone’s mind about their beliefs. I just find it an interesting topic for conversation.
 
StarSong said:
I read this when it was first published in 2010. It's a fascinating, well researched book that details stories of near death experiences from around the globe. He includes people of all ages - including small children, of various religions, and all levels of religiosity from atheists on up. Their experiences were strikingly similar, nearly always extraordinarily positive, and quite heartening to read.
Click to expand...

Thanks Starsong. I haven’t read it but I think I’m going to. He also has a book called God and the Afterlife. Like yourself, I find it fascinating.
 
Keesha said:
But if someone doesn’t remember any of their dreams, to THAT person, dreaming doesn’t exist and is merely a figment of the imagination.
Are dreams real?
Click to expand...

Everyone dreams. It's absolutely essential to your health. Some people can remember them and others can't but we all dream when we are asleep at some stage in our sleep.
 
Keesha said:
But if someone doesn’t remember any of their dreams, to THAT person, dreaming doesn’t exist and is merely a figment of the imagination.
Are dreams real?
Click to expand...

Everyone dreams. It's absolutely essential to your health. Some people can remember them and others can't but we all dream when we are asleep at some stage in our sleep.
https://chealth.canoe.com/healthfeature/gethealthfeature/dreams-the-mysteries-of-sleep




Jump to Do we dream every night? - Yes, we dream every night. But dreams are complicated, and their contents can confound us. ... It's been estimated that more than 2 hours out of each night's sleep are spent dreaming or in a dreamlike state. It's long been believed that we only dream during the rapid eye movement, or REM, cycle of sleep.
 
Thank you Camper. I actually realize that everyone dreams. What I was getting at is that if a person doesn’t remember any dreams then it would be difficult for them to digest the idea of dreaming. Dreaming is something you need to experience in order to fully understand what they are and that they exist as a part of human experiences. If others haven’t experienced any ‘out of the ordinary’ states of consciousness then perhaps it makes it more difficult to accept that there are different states of consciousness.

The article was very interesting though. I appreciated the explanation of why we have nightmares and the P.T.S.D. connection to them.
 
Many of these near death visions that people have reported have been debunked.

At the risk of repeating myself, the fact that a number of people have reported having a similar experience doesn't prove anything, except that when near death many people have similar dreams. What about the fact
that many more people have been near death, have recovered, and do not report any visions at all?
 
"For myself, this is compelling evidence that mind and consciousness cannot be reduced to brain activity."

I agree with that. My brother is atheist but believes in a form of life after death. He believes our consciousness doesn't die, that it's akin to electricity and goes somewhere. He said it could be our very atmosphere, or dark matter.

What Keesha said reminds me of those youtube videos where people who are color blind put on those special glasses. To the color-blind, green always looked like "this" and purple like "that". They recognized green and purple by sight but to others they were seeing neither green nor purple. And some of them cried when they saw for the first time how vivid and bright green and purple appear to the non-color-blind.
 
Keesha said:
I personally find this very interesting information but I’ve always been fascinated with different states of consciousness like dreaming, being under general anesthetic, comas, blacking out, hypnosis etc.,


What I find most surprising is why these topics make some people angry / or uncomfortable?


Is it because it’s discussing the unknown or because it challenges their belief system?


I’m not trying to convert anyone here or change anyone’s mind about their beliefs. I just find it an interesting topic for conversation.
Click to expand...

I think a lot of people need to believe that God's love is reserved for a select few - and that they have found membership in that club.

The idea that our Creator loves us equally would make us all um, equal.

Imagine a world where people stopped fighting about whose religion is the "right" one because the point would be moot. No more claiming "My country is more blessed than yours!" No more appropriating His opinion in a dispute (God is on OUR side).

Imagine if countries, cultures and individuals had to stop blaming their poor behavior on God because we'd know that She wants us to be kind to each other, to stop treating Her planet like a toilet, and to share the bounty that She so generously has shared with us? What a concept.
 
C_Sally said:
"For myself, this is compelling evidence that mind and consciousness cannot be reduced to brain activity."

I agree with that. My brother is atheist but believes in a form of life after death. He believes our consciousness doesn't die, that it's akin to electricity and goes somewhere. He said it could be our very atmosphere, or dark matter.

.
Click to expand...
Basic physics - energy does not die, nor can it be destroyed.
I also believe that energy has consciousness and like energy, it can’t die or be destroyed; it transforms!

StarSong said:
I think a lot of people need to believe that God's love is reserved for a select few - and that they have found membership in that club.

The idea that our Creator loves us equally would make us all um, equal.

Imagine a world where people stopped fighting about whose religion is the "right" one because the point would be moot. No more claiming "My country is more blessed than yours!" No more appropriating His opinion in a dispute (God is on OUR side).

Imagine if countries, cultures and individuals had to stop blaming their poor behavior on God because we'd know that She wants us to be kind to each other, to stop treating Her planet like a toilet, and to share the bounty that She so generously has shared with us? What a concept.
Click to expand...

So back to ‘conquer & divide ‘ mentality? :shrug:
Well I’m ok with standing out as the oddball:grin:

P.S. I just watched an interesting article on ‘life after death’ on Dr. Oz.
 
Evidence of the Afterlife - Scientific Research

"documented information from over 1,300 patients who have had near death experiences."

Near death or even dead doesn't mean the brain stops functioning immediately or at least this article which is to long to cut & paste explains that up to 10 minutes there is activity

Brain activity may continue for more than 10 minutes after the body appears to have died, according to a new study.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-death-after-eeg-study-research-a7620131.html

Afterlife is a religious belief that hasn't been proven. Evidence of brain activity after death has. Since brain activity continues just like it does while asleep. I'm happy to wait until 1300 dead and buried show up to explain what to expect.
 
Aunt Bea said:
I believe that when you die you are just plain dead until the resurrection/final judgment/final hour if and when it comes.
Click to expand...


That's similar to the beliefs of both German reformer Martin Luther [father of the Protestant Reformation who translated the Bible into German] and English reformer William Tyndale [who translated the Bible into English and was executed for it - ironically the later King James Version is mostly taken from Tyndale's translation.] They believed as I do, what the Bible teaches... that there is no conscious life after death until the bodily resurrection of the dead at the second coming of Christ.


For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised. And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:16-23


But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
 
KingsX said:
That's similar to the beliefs of both German reformer Martin Luther [father of the Protestant Reformation who translated the Bible into German] and English reformer William Tyndale [who translated the Bible into English and was executed for it - ironically the later King James Version is mostly taken from Tyndale's translation.] They believed as I do, what the Bible teaches... that there is no conscious life after death until the bodily resurrection of the dead at the second coming of Christ.


For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised. And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:16-23


But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
Click to expand...

Interestingly enough, Paul's "Road to Damascus" epiphany is strikingly similar to the near death experiences reported in the OP's book reference.
 
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