Car's AC shot

[JimW]

JimW...Like you, I worked for GM during my college days. My uncle owned the largest Buick dealership in Cleveland when I was going to college in Kent. He allowed me to stay with him and the family, so I could go to Kent at resident rate and he gave me a job in the evenings and weekends working on cars. I have accumulated probably at today's prices over $20,000.00 in tools, including some electronic instruments that are seldom used today like a dwell/tach and a timing light. All my tools are Snap On and Macke, which as you know are the Cadillac of the tool industry for auto mechanics. I almost was talked into getting my master's mechanics license, but stayed in school and got my engineering degree.

I still do most of my own work, including on my kid's and Grandchildren's cars. It's not like it used to be when there was plenty of room under the hood to take care of business and some of the models today, the mechanic has to have a "special" tool that the dealership only has access to, so that the mechanic can do the job more easily. Because I was treated like an apprentice, I was not paid flat rate, just hourly rate. But, I know some of the line mechanics made huge salaries. Like you said, some mechanics could make 50-60 hours of pay for a 40 hour work week. The only think that I never got any experience on is automatic transmission work. Those things have a thousand pieces in them and they are very complicated, if you do not have the experience.

The dealership mechanics in Cleveland belonged to a union back in the day. How it is today, I don't know. I really enjoyed working on those big Electras and Wildcats. The Rivieras were a bit harder to work on because they had that short front end with the big engine. I remember working on the Buick engines. Man, they were huge. The Wildcats had that '401 and '425 engine in them, but there was still plenty of room to work on them because of their huge front end.

I worked for Ford and Jaguar dealers when I was in the trade. I also did a few years with an independent garage along with an awful lot of side work. There was a time myself and a buddy that I did my side work with, who also worked at the Jaguar dealer, were thinking about opening a garage together, but he was offered a service manager position at the Jag dealer and he accepted it. We still did side work together, but he didn't want to open a garage at that time. About a year later when the economy went bust in 1989, I along with 8 other Jag mechanics were laid off, they went from 14 Jag mechanics down to 6 in two months. I needed a job and went to work for Goodyear for two more years, but Goodyear sure wasn't Jaguar and my taste for the mechanics trade in general soured. I quit Goodyear and took my toolbox over my friend's house where we did all of the side work and decided to look at other avenues of work while paying the bills with the side work. That's when I ended up in the HVAC and air movement business with the company I'm with now. I took a shot and it worked out, I've been here for 25 years.

I too had thousands of dollars of tools, around $12-15K or so worth back then, so just about what you had. They too were all top of the line tools, Snap-On, Matco & Cornwell. Oddly enough my first ever wrench set I purchased when I was 14 years old was Craftsman and I still have it today. When I knew I was done with mechanics for a job, I sold all of my specialty tools and air tools. I had all of those Fluke multi-meters, dealer specialty tools, etc, but they weren't doing me any good sitting in my basement. I kept most of my hand tools and still have them today. I don't do any work on any of my cars anymore unless it's something I can do quick in my driveway. I have a couple friends that are still in the trade and if I ever need non-warranty repairs I can count on them.

I also never got involved with transmission work other than fluid and filter changes and replacing clutches. Most shops either had a transmission guy or sent their tranny work out because they are a completely different animal.

I'm not sure if there are unions in the dealerships or not these days, there weren't any that I knew of when I left the trade. The Goodyear shop I worked at was union. It was part of a Teamsters local but that was pretty much a joke, we paid our dues but never heard anything from the union itself. I didn't ask too many questions about it cause I knew I wouldn't be there too long.

There was nothing like working on the older cars, pre electronic ignition. It was a lot of fun building drag cars with my buddies and racing on Sundays. I also loved the classic cars. I was part of a 3 man team that restored a 56 Chevy Nomad that placed 3rd in it's class in the Nomad Nationals back in 1985.

 

[Butterfly]

This is the main reason why I said never go to a dealership for a cash repair unless absolutely necessary. As Oldman mentioned above, all cash repairs at dealerships are charged by the flat rate labor manual which can be very generous with the amount of time it gives a mechanic to perform repairs and dealership labor rates are usually much higher than any local mechanic will charge. When I worked for dealerships back in the day, there were some days where I had 12 to 15 hours of labor owed to me for an 8 hour day. I could have 3 different jobs running on the clock at the same time and get paid for all 3 while only working on one. I wasn't ripping anyone off by doing this, (they were going to pay the same labor rate no matter what I did) I was simply working within the format that was set up for mechanics to use. These double digit labor hour days were usually the exception to the rule and if you had more than one or two of them a week, you were pretty lucky. This is the good side of being a dealership mechanic, and where most guys made their money. There were some weeks where I could accumulate 50 labor hours or more, these were very good weeks.

There is also a not so good side of being a dealership mechanic and that's the warranty work, which is about 75% of all dealership repairs. Just like the cash jobs are billed using the flat rate labor manual, warranty work is billed using the auto manufacturers warranty labor manual and this manual is no where near as time friendly to the mechanic as the flat rate manual. The auto maker, whether it be Ford, Chevy or Chrysler etc, pay the mechanics for the warranty repairs they perform on your vehicle and of course they want to pay as little as possible. The allotted time given to the mechanic to perform repairs in the warranty manual is much less than in the cash manual. A good mechanic can eventually make the times given in the warranty repair manual after performing the same repair a few times, but until he reaches that point he will lose money on each repair performed. It takes practice and repetition to get to this point, a good mechanic will figure out different ways to make the repair go faster every time he does one. Most average and below average mechanics never get to the point where they can complete the repair in the allotted time and this means they lose money. If the warranty manual allows for 3 hours for a mechanic to finish a repair and it takes him 5 hours, he's only getting paid for 3. No one wants to work 40 hours and only get paid for 35, but it does happen from time to time at dealerships when you run into a tough warranty repair and fail to make the allotted time. And this makes those 50 hour weeks all that more important.

It pays for a mechanic to be very friendly with the service manager(s) at the dealership because they are the ones who hand out the work orders, both cash and warranty.

Warranty repairs and computer problems should be the only thing you take your car to the dealership for, unless they are running some type of special which might be worth the money. But remember these "specials" are simply a means to get you in the door so they can up sell to other repairs. Sometimes it can be hard to say no to a pressure up sell, but if you don't want to get ripped off that two letter word is your best friend.

I don't anything about cars, but experience has taught me that the above is absolutely correct. And routine stuff like fluid changes, etc. at a dealership will cost you ridiculous sums for what you can get done at a neighborhood mechanic or Pep Boys or the like for way less than half the cost.

 

[JimW]

[/B]
I don't anything about cars, but experience has taught me that the above is absolutely correct. And routine stuff like fluid changes, etc. at a dealership will cost you ridiculous sums for what you can get done at a neighborhood mechanic or Pep Boys or the like for way less than half the cost.

And the local Quicky Lube is not the place to have your brakes done, engine tuned up or any other work that a qualified mechanic should be doing. Those Quicky Lube places are great for what they are, a place to get your oil changed quickly on your schedule. Other than that stay away from them for other repairs and don't let them up-sell you an air filter, windshield wipers, new antifreeze, etc unless you know you need it. And never let someone change your automatic transmission fluid without changing the filter, you might as well drive down the street throwing $20 bills out the window.

 

[Don M.]

And the local Quicky Lube is not the place to have your brakes done, engine tuned up or any other work that a qualified mechanic should be doing.

I don't even trust these "jiffy lube" places. Years ago, I stopped by one on the way home from work to have the oil/filter changed...as I was in a hurry. The next morning, as I fired up the truck, I got a oil pressure warning...looked under the truck, and had a puddle of oil on the garage floor. The "expert" had only hand tightened the drain plug, and it was nearly ready to fall out. Luckily, I got home, instead of it happening on the highway, and potentially damaging the engine, and costing me a tow. Unless it's something major, or under warranty, I hate to take a vehicle in for anything other than a front end alignment or new tires.

 

[JimW]

And the local Quicky Lube is not the place to have your brakes done, engine tuned up or any other work that a qualified mechanic should be doing.

I don't even trust these "jiffy lube" places. Years ago, I stopped by one on the way home from work to have the oil/filter changed...as I was in a hurry. The next morning, as I fired up the truck, I got a oil pressure warning...looked under the truck, and had a puddle of oil on the garage floor. The "expert" had only hand tightened the drain plug, and it was nearly ready to fall out. Luckily, I got home, instead of it happening on the highway, and potentially damaging the engine, and costing me a tow. Unless it's something major, or under warranty, I hate to take a vehicle in for anything other than a front end alignment or new tires.

That stinks stinks Don. Did they not have you start the car and check for leaks before you left?

I have been using Valvoline Instant Oil Change for about 20 years now with good luck. There's one not too far from my work and I usually go during my lunch. They do a pretty good job.

 

[Don M.]

That stinks stinks Don. Did they not have you start the car and check for leaks before you left?.

This was one of those places where they drive the vehicle over a "pit"...the guy goes into the pit to drain the oil, and replace the filter, then comes back up to refill the crankcase. They then start the car up to back it off the pit, so unless the leak is extreme, they "assume" they got it right. I was just lucky that the plug stayed in long enough to get 1/2 mile to the house. That was the One and Only time I ever had the oil changed at a shop. I have a Huge Craftsman tool chest with thousands of dollars of tools, jacks, jackstands, etc., etc., and until I get too old to crawl around under a car, I fully intend to do all my own "fixes".

The ONE vehicle I will Never again buy is one with a transverse mounted V6 engine....changing the spark plugs on the rear cylinders is the maximum test for this old "shade tree" mechanic.

 

[JimW]

This was one of those places where they drive the vehicle over a "pit"...the guy goes into the pit to drain the oil, and replace the filter, then comes back up to refill the crankcase. They then start the car up to back it off the pit, so unless the leak is extreme, they "assume" they got it right. I was just lucky that the plug stayed in long enough to get 1/2 mile to the house. That was the One and Only time I ever had the oil changed at a shop. I have a Huge Craftsman tool chest with thousands of dollars of tools, jacks, jackstands, etc., etc., and until I get too old to crawl around under a car, I fully intend to do all my own "fixes".

The ONE vehicle I will Never again buy is one with a transverse mounted V6 engine....changing the spark plugs on the rear cylinders is the maximum test for this old "shade tree" mechanic.

Okay, the system at the quick lube place you went to is different from the Valvoline I go to. At the Valvoline the customer drives the vehicle over the pit and stays in the vehicle while the oil change is being done. They have two techs per vehicle, one below in the pit and the other one up top. After the filter is replaced and the new oil is put in, the tech up top asks the customer to start the vehicle, the tech below checks for leaks and the tech above makes sure the oil pressure light goes out or the oil pressure gauge shows proper pressure.

All the power to you for continuing to do your own repairs. I simply do not have the want to do most vehicle repairs anymore.

 

[debodun]

I called Honda after reading the comments about not getting the tranny filter changed. Whomever I spoke to said it was because I didn't ask for it - I only asked for the fluid to be changed and they can't do anything I don't ask for. I said "I though it was included." The answer - "No, it isn't. You have be specific."

 

[Macfan]

The only time to go to the dealer is if 'whatever' is covered under warranty. The only other exception is if the part or parts needed are exclusively available from the dealer. Other than that, the dealer should always be the dead last option. In my experience and there have been a few, I've usually saved at least half, if not more, by going to a respected (Auto Club recommended) independent mechanic. They may not be cheaper but they also usually don't recommend things or stuff that isn't needed for the issue at hand. Disclaimer, about all of my experience is based in Southern California, and may not be valid in other States, Provinces or Countries. Others may disagree, and that's fine, just sharing my particular experience. Don...

 

[Don M.]

I called Honda after reading the comments about not getting the tranny filter changed. Whomever I spoke to said it was because I didn't ask for it - I only asked for the fluid to be changed and they can't do anything I don't ask for. I said "I though it was included." The answer - "No, it isn't. You have be specific."

I can't believe a dealer/shop replacing the trans fluid without also stating the need to replace the filter. That is like replacing the engine oil and Not the filter, at the same time. Surely, they asked you about the filter, didn't they??? If not, that is Certainly another reason to Never go back to that place.

 

[Knight]

Price $1.91
Valvoline DEXRON/MERCON Automatic Transmission Fluid - 1gal
Price: $13.97


Thanks debodun one of those eye openers for vulnerable people that don't know anything about car service.


Car is up on the rack. Mechanic now called technician goes over to get the drain tank for the transmission fluid, 2 minutes tops depending on where it's stored. Removes drain plug 30 seconds tops.


While trans is draining, takes an impact gun out of his tool box, hooks it to the shop air supply, removes both rear wheels 2 minutes tops. Taps the drums, removes the drums, hooks the shop air supply to the nozzle he should have in his tool box, puts on goggles and dust mask, blows dust off. Checks springs for rubbing, maybe sprays a little WD 40 on them. Replaces wheels whole "job" 10 minutes max.


Transmission drained, if he even replaced the drain plug seal, he then lowers the car. A well equipped shop would have trans fluid supply lines with a metered dispenser for pumping trans fluid from a 55 gallon drum. Best guess fluid in bulk $1.25 a quart.


Total time spent 30 minutes max and that is giving the tech clean up time for his tools and putting the transmission fluid drain tank back.


As was previously explained time is pre determined but favors the dealership. The expense of wages, facility and all that goes with service at a dealer ship is passed on to the customer that doesn't know what is involved in the service they want. With the internet so much can be researched. Those that can't perform the simple jobs like you just paid for might think about using the internet to get a ball park idea of cost.

 

[debodun]

If it only took that amount of time you outlined, why was my car in there for 2 and a half hours?

 

[JimW]

If it only took that amount of time you outlined, why was my car in there for 2 and a half hours?

To justify the almost $300 they charged you, (actually over $300 if you add the $40 senior discount back on). I guarantee you they weren't working on your car for that amount of time. I figure it took about an hour to complete everything on the invoice you posted depending on the mechanics ability and whether he/she took a test drive before and after to diagnose the brakes and make sure the noise was gone.

 

[Don M.]

If it only took that amount of time you outlined, why was my car in there for 2 and a half hours?

It's a sad fact of life, but many dealers/repair shops routinely overcharge for their services....especially if the customer appears to have little knowledge about how cars work. Women, and the elderly are often the most likely to be overcharged....I strongly suspect that part of the Service Managers job is to "evaluate" the customers knowledge about a given problem, and if that customer appears to be a novice, the bill and charges will quickly escalate.

Newer cars, with all their electronics controlling everything, offer Golden Opportunities to fleece a customer. When a "check engine", or "service vehicle", etc., message pops up on the dashboard gauges, the car owner is open for exploitation if they don't do some research on their own. A good code reader/scanner can cost hundreds, even thousands, of dollars, and few people will have access to one to tell them what the trouble is. Fortunately, many of the better auto parts stores have these devices, and will read the codes for little or no charge. Getting that code readout Before you take the car in for service is just about the ONLY guarantee that you will not be fleeced.

 

[Aunt Bea]

I don't think that the amount of time involved is always that sinister.

My Chevrolet dealer is quite large and it can take up to 45 minutes from the time the work is done for the paperwork to reach the office and for the car to have a kid drive it out of the garage.

The more I read in this thread the more I think that Deb should just throw in the towel and lease a new vehicle every three years,

IMO if you can't do your own work it's really just a case of pay me now or pay me later.

 

[JimW]

Went to Valvoline Instant Oil Change today at lunch for an oil change. I also had them rotate the tires for $29.99 and replace my air filter for $25.00. I use the Valvoline Max Life synthetic blend oil which is a middle of the road product and my vehicle takes 6 qts. There were 3 people working on my vehicle at once, one in the pit below draining the oil, changing the filter and jacking up the vehicle to rotate the tires. The other two working up top on the tires and oil change. It took 30 minutes from start to finish for everything. The grand total including tax was $132.00, less a $10 coupon and I was out of there for $122.00 for everything, that's only $40 per person working on my vehicle including the cost of parts. They even hand torqued the lug nuts with a torque wrench which is rare. That's what these places are meant for, quick and easy stuff and most of them are okay at doing it.

 

[Camper6]

If it only took that amount of time you outlined, why was my car in there for 2 and a half hours?

They work on multiple cars all at once so the customer gets his scheduled time.

 

[Aunt Bea]

Went to Valvoline Instant Oil Change today at lunch for an oil change. I also had them rotate the tires for $29.99 and replace my air filter for $25.00. I use the Valvoline Max Life synthetic blend oil which is a middle of the road product and my vehicle takes 6 qts. There were 3 people working on my vehicle at once, one in the pit below draining the oil, changing the filter and jacking up the vehicle to rotate the tires. The other two working up top on the tires and oil change. It took 30 minutes from start to finish for everything. The grand total including tax was $132.00, less a $10 coupon and I was out of there for $122.00 for everything, that's only $40 per person working on my vehicle including the cost of parts. They even hand torqued the lug nuts with a torque wrench which is rare. That's what these places are meant for, quick and easy stuff and most of them are okay at doing it.

I had the oil & filter changed on my 2012 Chevrolet Colorado the other day at Ye Olde Corner Mechanic for $44.62 plus tax.

I also had a Front Wheel Bearing and Hub Assembly replaced for $410.42 plus tax and Front Brakes Pads & Rotors replaced for $676.60 plus tax.

Not sure how this stacks up with what is normal and customary for this type of work.

 

[Don M.]

I had the oil & filter changed on my 2012 Chevrolet Colorado the other day at Ye Olde Corner Mechanic for $44.62 plus tax. I also had a Front Wheel Bearing and Hub Assembly replaced for $410.42 plus tax and Front Brakes Pads & Rotors replaced for $676.60 plus tax. Not sure how this stacks up with what is normal and customary for this type of work.

The oil and filter change price is about right at an independent garage. The front end work seems a bit high, to me...especially if all the work was being done at one time. What I like to do, with regard to auto parts, is to research the price of the parts on RockAuto.com, and compare that to what a local shop wants to charge. This past Winter, I replaced an upper ball joint, front rotors, rear drums and new brake pads and linings on my pristine 1997 Dakota, for a total of about $160, with parts from RockAuto. Then, I had the front end realigned for $50. I puttered around for 4 or 5 hours doing the work, but probably saved 5 or 6 hundred on labor.

I've been ready for a new set of tires on the Impala since Spring...and been researching and watching for a decent sale. A couple of weeks ago, Walmart...of all places...put some excellent Goodyears on sale for way less than Goodyear wanted. I got 4 80,000 mile warranty tires, mounted, balanced, with a lifetime balance/rotation/road hazard warranty for just over $500...the same tires/warranty at the tire dealer would have been over $750.

Bottom line...most of the price on auto repairs, at a shop/dealer is Labor.

 

[JimW]

I had the oil & filter changed on my 2012 Chevrolet Colorado the other day at Ye Olde Corner Mechanic for $44.62 plus tax.

I also had a Front Wheel Bearing and Hub Assembly replaced for $410.42 plus tax and Front Brakes Pads & Rotors replaced for $676.60 plus tax.

Not sure how this stacks up with what is normal and customary for this type of work.

Good price on the oil change Bea.

I agree with Don that the combination of the front bearing/hub and brake job sounds high. The bearing and hub replacement sounds reasonable by itself, but the brakes are high especially seeing the mechanic would have to remove the brake calipers and rotors to replace the wheel bearing and hub anyway. They should've given you a brake (pun intended) on the labor for the brake job. Did they replace only the brake pads and rotors for $676.60 or did they replace the calipers and bleed the system as well? Either way it still seems high.

 

[Aunt Bea]

Thanks, Guys!

My thoughts are very similar to yours.

I don't begrudge them the labor savings/efficiency gained on doing both jobs at the same time or the markup in parts to what I consider top of the line retail.

The Closer at the shop told me back in February that the wheel bearing was starting to go and told me that my vehicle is one of the most expensive to replace. I put off the repair at that time because I thought it was odd that a wheel bearing would go bad at 30,000 miles. I did some checking at that time and found out that he was correct about the added expense for my vehicle.

My overall opinion is that these guys are honest with their customers and their employees. I also like the fact that they are within walking distance of my apartment and in a pinch, they will come to pick up the vehicle and or drop it off.

 

[JimW]

Thanks, Guys!

My thoughts are very similar to yours.

I don't begrudge them the labor savings/efficiency gained on doing both jobs at the same time or the markup in parts to what I consider top of the line retail.

The Closer at the shop told me back in February that the wheel bearing was starting to go and told me that my vehicle is one of the most expensive to replace. I put off the repair at that time because I thought it was odd that a wheel bearing would go bad at 30,000 miles. I did some checking at that time and found out that he was correct about the added expense for my vehicle.

My overall opinion is that these guys are honest with their customers and their employees. I also like the fact that they are within walking distance of my apartment and in a pinch, they will come to pick up the vehicle and or drop it off.

If you trust them and are happy with their work, that's about all you can ask for out of any business. Sometimes price isn't the end all be all as long as your getting quality work. The fact they are within walking distance and offer a pick up/drop off service is a plus as well.

 

[Aunt Bea]

If you trust them and are happy with their work, that's about all you can ask for out of any business. Sometimes price isn't the end all be all as long as your getting quality work. The fact they are within walking distance and offer a pick up/drop off service is a plus as well.

I may sound like Pollyanna but I don't begrudge paying a fair price to a local small business as long as it translates into fair wages/benefits for the employees.

We all deserve to make enough to provide a comfortable living for ourselves and our families.