I wont fight to see grandchildren

grahamg said:
So, no one other than myself can answer the questions I've brought up (generic questions I'd argue anyone on the planet could give some kind of response to), and they apply only to my situation you say?

Amongst the unexpected responses I get to the posts I make on one or two forums, your argument is right up there I have to tell you, and yet quite amusing for all that I must say :D :rolleyes:.
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Your questions:
Grahamg wrote:
"..........just in case it prompts interest here goes my latest thoughts in the form of a list of questions:
"Are you in favour of children verbally abusing their loving parent/parents?"
I'm not in favor of abuse of any kind. However, Adults (unless disabled or otherwise dependent on their children) can easily remove themselves from situations in which they find themselves abused. Children are not so fortunate. One would also need to learn from the child in question what precipitated the anger being directed at said parent. It's a parent's job to not take certain statements personally, particularly when putting their children through the stress of an acrimonious divorce or other situations that are completely out of their control but affect every aspect of their lives.

"Are you in favour of giving children a platform to verbally abuse their parents, in the guise of children's views being listened to and taken seriously?"
Yes, I believe children should be listened to and taken seriously, even if the way they frame their take on an experience hurts their parents' feelings.

"Do you agree that any parent, following their divorce or separation from the other parent, should have no right to any privacy, even where there are no fears of any abuse regarding their child?"
Obviously this is specific to your situation. No idea why the courts would be looking deeply into your life. I'm generally in favor of courts determining whether a parent's life should be thoroughly investigated before allowing full access to his/her child.

"Is privacy in close interpersonal relationships required at all, or should any court appointed professional be permitted to ask your child any question they wish?"
No privacy is required. All questions are fair game.
 

grahamg said:
Don't respond if you wish, but questions will always be raised by someone, and if one day your son becomes estranged from his children, or you become estranged from grandchild then maybe my "silly, disingenuous, insincere questions may come to your mind too.
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Both those scenarios HAVE happened in my immediate family. One of my children did become estranged from his children. I also became estranged from three of my grandchildren. Both situations are now resolved after considerable time and attention. I’ve lived what you write about, so I write responses with considerable experience behind them. My points still stand.
 
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Really kind of you

StarSong said:
Your questions:
Grahamg wrote:
"..........just in case it prompts interest here goes my latest thoughts in the form of a list of questions:
"Are you in favour of children verbally abusing their loving parent/parents?"
I'm not in favor of abuse of any kind. However, Adults (unless disabled or otherwise dependent on their children) can easily remove themselves from situations in which they find themselves abused. Children are not so fortunate. One would also need to learn from the child in question what precipitated the anger being directed at said parent. It's a parent's job to not take certain statements personally, particularly when putting their children through the stress of an acrimonious divorce or other situations that are completely out of their control but affect every aspect of their lives.

"Are you in favour of giving children a platform to verbally abuse their parents, in the guise of children's views being listened to and taken seriously?"
Yes, I believe children should be listened to and taken seriously, even if the way they frame their take on an experience hurts their parents' feelings.

"Do you agree that any parent, following their divorce or separation from the other parent, should have no right to any privacy, even where there are no fears of any abuse regarding their child?"
Obviously this is specific to your situation. No idea why the courts would be looking deeply into your life. I'm generally in favor of courts determining whether a parent's life should be thoroughly investigated before allowing full access to his/her child.

"Is privacy in close interpersonal relationships required at all, or should any court appointed professional be permitted to ask your child any question they wish?"
No privacy is required. All questions are fair game.
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Really kind of you to answer my questions (albeit it was a bit like drawing teeth getting there you'd agree?).

I pretty much agree with your first answer, and disagree almost totally with your other three, (the less frivolous/disingenuous questions perhaps ).

It is useful to me to hear the views of others, particularly where they disagree with quoted family lawyers such as Goldwater, the Canadian lawyer I keep quoting, and if I can find a link to his views I'll try to let anyone who may be interested know why he disagrees with you on the need for privacy in close interpersonal relationships.

I'm in a bit of a rush, and the internet connection here in this "restaurant" is rubbish, so I keep getting cut off if I don't post quickly, but I have some fun comments for you to look forward to.
 

hollydolly said:
Good grief Graham, you're taking your anger out on the wrong people...reign yourself in man...
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Coming from your good self I know how well meant your words are, and I find them funny strange as that may sound to say so (as a self confessed "fool" I'm allowed odd reactions perhaps).

If I lived in your well ordered world I'd perhaps take a different view to the one I do, (I'm assuming your world is well ordered), and I'm sure I wouldn't mess with you, or your head too much too :eek: .

One fun comment for you I asked a good friend's very kind wife my silly questions last night, and she did comment so far as the first question "Obviously I'm not in favour of children verbally abusing their parents", so not too difficult to deal with for her it seems (at least!).

We went on to a very pleasant discussion, along with her thirteen year old son who is pretty smart for his age too. He made the point perhaps echoing yours, that it is a danger you'll tie yourself up in arguments such as these for the rest of your life. However, if you'd met some of my old fathers rights campaigning friends you'd have a better idea just how far some of the fathers do go trying to see their children, and my comment to them was that it had completely taken them over. Their response was that they knew it had, but if they hadn't campaigned in the way they did, they'd probably have gone completely off their heads.
 
Hi grahamg,

I've been reading this thread and not sure I have an answer to your problem. I will say that many of us have or have had similar problems with our kids.
IMO courts are not the place to resolve family issues.
And it also seems that much of the family issues are world wide now and society has lot to do with it.
I read that some nations are suing their kids for not visiting them.
My problem with my kids is their grandkids can't do wrong. One is raising her two grandsons which for first 8 yr.s could do no wrong aka spoiled and unruly. Now they are getting more correction and acting better. If you do get to see your grands, just remember if you want to get along with any of them "kids rule " now. Not so much just 20 years ago.
Good luck hope things go your way soon.
 
LOL>..well I wouldn't say my life has been well ordered,..far from it graham..but thank you for the compliment..

I just don't like to see you getting yourself so upset about it all, that you're taking your frustrations out on those whose opinions you're hoping will help... do take care!!
 
StarSong said:
Your questions:
Grahamg wrote:
"..........just in case it prompts interest here goes my latest thoughts in the form of a list of questions:
"Are you in favour of children verbally abusing their loving parent/parents?"
I'm not in favor of abuse of any kind. However, Adults (unless disabled or otherwise dependent on their children) can easily remove themselves from situations in which they find themselves abused. Children are not so fortunate. One would also need to learn from the child in question what precipitated the anger being directed at said parent. It's a parent's job to not take certain statements personally, particularly when putting their children through the stress of an acrimonious divorce or other situations that are completely out of their control but affect every aspect of their lives.

"Are you in favour of giving children a platform to verbally abuse their parents, in the guise of children's views being listened to and taken seriously?"
Yes, I believe children should be listened to and taken seriously, even if the way they frame their take on an experience hurts their parents' feelings.

"Do you agree that any parent, following their divorce or separation from the other parent, should have no right to any privacy, even where there are no fears of any abuse regarding their child?"
Obviously this is specific to your situation. No idea why the courts would be looking deeply into your life. I'm generally in favor of courts determining whether a parent's life should be thoroughly investigated before allowing full access to his/her child.

"Is privacy in close interpersonal relationships required at all, or should any court appointed professional be permitted to ask your child any question they wish?"
No privacy is required. All questions are fair game.
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I agree with you, StarSong.

Once the question of custody or abuse is before a court, the court has the right and even obligation to investigate in order to make decisions about custody and visitation. This question is well settled in our courts, at least here where I live. Here, agencies in charge of such matters have been sued and held accountable in cases where they did not investigate thoroughly enough or failed to take action and subsequently a child has been harmed or killed.
 
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The harm standard you're referring to

Butterfly said:
I agree with you, Keesha.

Once the question of custody or abuse is before a court, the court has the right and even obligation to investigate in order to make decisions about custody and visitation. This question is well settled in our courts, at least here where I live. Here, agencies in charge of such matters have been sued and held accountable in cases where they did not investigate thoroughly enough or failed to take action and subsequently a child has been harmed or killed.
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In the UK there is something called the "Harm standard" in our laws, which is a different consideration than what may or may not be in a child's best interests (the basis of UK family law for contact with your children, and a much flimsier level of protection for parents seeking contact). The "harm standard" is used to decide whether children should be taken from "intact families" for example, to give a level of defence to those parents, so the authorities can't just step in whenever some professional disagrees with your parenting style, or whether you take your child to "interesting or enjoyable places during contact visits", as I assure you they do here, as at least one reason for interfering.

I know US states differ in their family laws (some actually use the word "Love" when considering a child's contact with their parent), and yes it is different than the UK, though as our forum friends above have commented, there's plenty of trouble around across the world over this issue.

Must go, got to try to amuse Holly Dolly if I'm able to live up to my promise :) .
 
MeAgain said:
Hi grahamg,

I've been reading this thread and not sure I have an answer to your problem. I will say that many of us have or have had similar problems with our kids.
IMO courts are not the place to resolve family issues.
And it also seems that much of the family issues are world wide now and society has lot to do with it.
I read that some nations are suing their kids for not visiting them.
My problem with my kids is their grandkids can't do wrong. One is raising her two grandsons which for first 8 yr.s could do no wrong aka spoiled and unruly. Now they are getting more correction and acting better. If you do get to see your grands, just remember if you want to get along with any of them "kids rule " now. Not so much just 20 years ago.
Good luck hope things go your way soon.
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Very heart warming response, so obviously thank you very much for those kind words, and details you've witnessed.

My parents were funny when it came to my brothers children, or my many sisters children (seventeen grandchildren in total, at the last count they had, though everyone past breeding age now, so I don't know why I said that really). I think it fair to say they enjoyed seeing all their grandchildren, and there was one lovely granddaughter no one was allowed to criticise because of my youngest sisters attitude. Even my dad, who didn't hold back much, did keep fairly quiet when she behaved in a spoilt manner, though my parents took to hiding all the sweets or chocolates in a very high cupboard to prevent her seeing them, or demanding them. My niece has turned out very well I'm glad to say, but yes there were many occasions when she visited my home, that it was no pleasure "being ruled by her" essentially, till she got old enough to show a much better side to her character (another child totally alienated from her father I have to say though, and there is little or no doubt who was behind that situation).
 
hollydolly said:
LOL>..well I wouldn't say my life has been well ordered,..far from it graham..but thank you for the compliment..

I just don't like to see you getting yourself so upset about it all, that you're taking your frustrations out on those whose opinions you're hoping will help... do take care!!
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Me upset?

Well yes, I know what you mean, but as I keep saying things could definitely be much worse (think of those excluded parents/grandparents/fathers who know or fear their children are suffering in some way and they can't help them).

Now, can I amuse you, well this may not be funny exactly but worth relating even if not amusing.

My daughter came to stay with me on a few occasions (very few really, maybe once or twice at my parents farm, one to East Yorkshire where I used to live for a couple of years, and once to Wiltshire where I also lived for a time). On her visit to Wiltshire she played me up quite a bit, but I had a very good hearted girlfriend at the time, who my daughter seemed to like (telling her she'd make a "trendy mum"! - Others suffered adverse comments, such as one told "You wont last long!" :D ).

Anyway, when we arrived down in Wiltshire we visited a pub near to Stonehenge, where I'd stayed when I moved to the area, and knew the landlady well (she's still a very good friend). My daughter wished to make sure no one in this pub could say that she was enjoying herself being with me (see my comments on this in one of the above responses to other forum members). My daughter got up half way through drinking her orange juice to announce to complete strangers "I want everyone to know I hate him, he's horrible!", and then satisfied she'd made her point, or her conscience satisfied she sat down to finish her drink.

Though a first, she'd made the same comments over a protracted period to my family, but here's the rub, (before the "examine what you've done lobby" jump into gear), she said at the same time "Keep coming daddy" - totally unaware of the obvious contradiction. Daddy kept coming as long as he was allowed, but that's a story I'll leave for now (for fear of boring RR even more, if nothing else :eek: ).
 
well that is the worst thing I have heard from someone /or a kid / somewhere along the lines she's either been fed lies ' but besides that - I have to say please or offend she needed a good slap -seems like your daughter lost her manners somewhere ' a lot of hatred for someone so young - sounds spoilt or brainwashed 'the mother is a lot to blame as I see it ' and you to for letting her finish her drink and ignoring the humiliation ………..so now she is older -nothing has changed !!!!!
 
Not an unexpected response there

C'est Moi said:
I'd find it more interesting to know why the daughter is so angry. We are only hearing one side of this mini-drama.
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One day, you never know, you may get to hear the other side of the story if that is all that will satisfy you.

I do know that there are some professionals working in the family law field, who even refuse to accept the "other side of the story", when the now grown children say they were making up stories against their parents "to satisfy them", or get away from their never ceasing questions. "Do you want me to believe those little children lied" is the puerile response of people/professionals responsible for messing in such a serious way with the family lives of numerous parents and children here in the UK

I'm not meaning to impune all professionals here, most obviously do not behave this way, but the reputation of one group of them could not be lower in the eyes of a whole host of fathers/mothers/grandparents groups who attended a meeting in Westminster fifteen years ago, attended by our current prime minister Theresa May.
 
hollydolly said:
How old was your daughter when she had the little tantrum in the pub.?..older than 10 then it was completely unacceptable.
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My daughter was probably between 8 and 10, when she used to say her "party piece".

It did start to wane a bit when one of my sisters responded to her by saying, "you can't tell us our brother's horrible, because we know he's not", or words to that effect. My mum was funny about it too, and just emphasised it was her son she was criticising (my daughter's response was that as I was her dad she could say what she liked). Amongst all this nonsense there were so many good, positive things happening too, lets not forget. My daughter was chosen as "Safety monitor" at her school - maybe not the most glamourous position for an eleven year old, but indicating perhaps how mature she was. She was also chosen to assist a young Russian girl who came to their school, and needed help understanding the lessons.

I will tell just you, as I know you're a friend, that I did once push my daughter to say whether she loved me or not? "Deep down I do", she said, and I couldn't have wished for more could I, especially in the circumstances being faced, and if it meant she chose not to tell anyone else so be it (not that everyone on the forum would believe it without hearing from her of course :rolleyes: ).
 
toffee said:
well that is the worst thing I have heard from someone /or a kid / somewhere along the lines she's either been fed lies ' but besides that - I have to say please or offend she needed a good slap -seems like your daughter lost her manners somewhere ' a lot of hatred for someone so young - sounds spoilt or brainwashed 'the mother is a lot to blame as I see it ' and you to for letting her finish her drink and ignoring the humiliation ………..so now she is older -nothing has changed !!!!!
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This has changed, and odd as it must seem to anyone reading this thread, and is to me too, my daughter came to my father's funeral (her grandfather obviously), two years ago and stood beside me, and behaved pretty much "as though she'd never been away" !

Since then she's refused to accept presents I'd left at my former brother-in-laws house for her sons, and once again that seems a big contradiction doesn't it.

Earlier in this thread I said I agreed with the first one of the responses I'd been given to my four questions, and that explains as well as I'm able to why I behaved as I did when my daughter chose to "humiliate me" in front of a pretty scarcely populated pub. The "humiliation" was a flea bite really, and the reaction of the young woman behind the bar was one of amazement, perhaps at the level of confidence my daughter showed being prepared to do it, and no one took it seriously. Why she felt the need is perhaps the most pertinent question, taking away whatever anyone wants to infer I'd done wrong, but if my daughter correctly assumed she wasn't permitted privacy concerning her relationship with her father, then I'd say that goes some way.
 
reading all these pages -i think you are the only one who knows what went wrong ' us on the forum are picking at it to what we think incl me ; clearly you dont like feed back - so best live with what you have now …...end !
 
No problem

toffee said:
reading all these pages -i think you are the only one who knows what went wrong ' us on the forum are picking at it to what we think incl me ; clearly you dont like feed back - so best live with what you have now …...end !
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No problem sweetie, good luck, and have a good Christmas :D .
 
I've also been through this. My middle daughter was raised (after age 7) by her father and a woman who essentially acted as a step-mother though she and my ex-husband never married. They are still together after all these years.

Anyhow, a lot of what you write echoes what I've experienced with my daughter. Her older sister, raised in the same situation, reconciled with me when she was 18, so I know a bit of what went on there, but the younger of the two girls has never reconciled with me and hasn't spoken to me since she was about 17. Now she's 37. She was in the Navy 6 years, earned a PhD, got married, and had two children. I've never seen the children and wasn't invited to the graduations or wedding.

I'm kind of used to it now. I have four other children who have told her repeatedly that she should quit treating me like I don't exist and that I'm not a bad person who would deserve this. She's never been willing to tell me why she hates me so much. It is just something I've learned to live with, and if she doesn't want any relationship with me, I'm kind of okay with that now. After 20 years of distress over the situation I'm just tired of being so distressed. She gets what she asks for... and I get to get on with having a happy life.
 
I'm late to this thread but I just want to relate our situation with my husband's middle child, Doug. I call him a "child" because that's what he acts like, even though he's 46. He's married to a very manipulative woman and they have 2 boys, age 12 and 10. They have no clue who their grandfather (my husband) is. They were never allowed to talk to him on the phone. Their mother didn't want them to have anything to do with Doug's side of the family. We did visit them one time 8 years ago. They live in Anaheim, CA and at the time all 3 of my husband's "kids" lived there. They wanted to celebrate their father's 70th birthday so we went out there for a couple weeks. We were suppose to stay with Doug and his wife and see the 2 grandkids. When we got to their house, there was no bed in the guestroom...there was just a blow-up air mattress on the floor. Doug's wife had just sold the bed before we came. Nice, right? That was just a subtle hint that she didn't want us there. She had no food in the house so we went shopping and bought groceries. The kids didn't want anything to do with us and the oldest was very rude. He slammed the bathroom door in my face one morning and told me to get out of his bathroom. They didn't do or say anything. This from a 4 year old. We took everyone to Disneyland and the oldest kept kicking the back of our seats on one of the rides. Never a thank you for taking them. Nothing. We left their house the next day and stayed with my husband's daughter and her husband the rest of the time.

My husband use to talk to Doug and ask if he could talk to the kids, but Doug would always give some excuse. Then the phone calls stopped. We haven't heard or talked to Doug in years, but that's Doug's choice. I feel bad that my husband will never know his grandkids but there's nothing we can do about it. We don't sit around feeling sorry for ourselves over it. Life is too short to be a hostage for someone else's choices.
 
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